BasesLoadedWalk Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I thought it would be a good time to bring this up. Maybe we could get some good arguments, pro and con, on some of the more prominent players playing today. I think for all intents and purposes, Clemens is in. Bonds I won't comment about. OK, so let's start off with the rest of the players. I will post some names, most of you are familiar and then you decide whether they have the cred to get into Cooperstown based on what they've done up until now: Andruw Jones Carlos Delgado Ivan Rodriguez Craig Biggio Tom Glavine John Smoltz Bernie Williams Ken Griffey, Jr. Mike Piazza Jim Thome Frank Thomas Alex Rodriguez Ichiro Suzuki Manny Ramirez Pedro Martinez Andy Pettitte Julio Franco Randy Johnson Which of these do you think have earned the spot? Which ones still need some more productive years to make sure? Which ones do you think have fallen short of "immortality" in your mind? I hope to see a civil debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Griffey's a lock to go in, and most likely on the 1st ballot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramp Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Julio Franco? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbob1313 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Andruw Jones: With a few more great years, he will probably be. But I don't think he should be. Carlos Delgado: Borderline Ivan Rodriguez: Arguably the greatest catcher ever. A lock. Craig Biggio: A lock Tom Glavine: A lock John Smoltz: A lock Bernie Williams: He'll probably go in, but he doesn't deserve it Ken Griffey, Jr.: A lock Mike Piazza: A lock Jim Thome: Probably won't be in. Frank Thomas: Should be in Alex Rodriguez: A lock Ichiro Suzuki: A lock Manny Ramirez: A lock Pedro Martinez: A lock Andy Pettitte: Extreme borderline Julio Franco: Probably will just because of longevity Randy Johnson: A lock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVPosey Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I thought it would be a good time to bring this up. Maybe we could get some good arguments, pro and con, on some of the more prominent players playing today. I think for all intents and purposes, Clemens is in. Bonds I won't comment about. OK, so let's start off with the rest of the players. I will post some names, most of you are familiar and then you decide whether they have the cred to get into Cooperstown based on what they've done up until now: Andruw Jones If he retired today: out By the end of his career: likely Carlos Delgado If he retired today: out By the end of his career: maybe Ivan Rodriguez lock Craig Biggio borderline Tom Glavine lock John Smoltz lock Bernie Williams out Ken Griffey, Jr. lock Mike Piazza lock Jim Thome borderline, in if he gets to 500 homers Frank Thomas see: Thome Alex Rodriguez in Ichiro Suzuki out Manny Ramirez if he retired today: borderline by the end of his career: lock, barring injury Pedro Martinez lock Andy Pettitte out Julio Franco out Randy Johnson lock Which of these do you think have earned the spot? Which ones still need some more productive years to make sure? Which ones do you think have fallen short of "immortality" in your mind? I hope to see a civil debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Andruw Jones: With a few more great years, he will probably be. But I don't think he should be. Carlos Delgado: Borderline Ivan Rodriguez: Arguably the greatest catcher ever. A lock. Craig Biggio: A lock Tom Glavine: A lock John Smoltz: A lock Bernie Williams: He'll probably go in, but he doesn't deserve it Ken Griffey, Jr.: A lock Mike Piazza: A lock Jim Thome: Probably won't be in. Frank Thomas: Should be in Alex Rodriguez: A lock Ichiro Suzuki: A lock Manny Ramirez: A lock Pedro Martinez: A lock Andy Pettitte: Extreme borderline Julio Franco: Probably will just because of longevity Randy Johnson: A lock What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passion Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Andruw Jones Potentially Carlos Delgado No Ivan Rodriguez In Now Craig Biggio In Now Tom Glavine In Now John Smoltz Close Bernie Williams No Ken Griffey, Jr. In Now Mike Piazza In Now Jim Thome Close Frank Thomas In Now Alex Rodriguez In Now Ichiro Suzuki Potentially Manny Ramirez In Now Pedro Martinez In Now Andy Pettitte No Julio Franco No Randy Johnson In Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BasesLoadedWalk Posted October 14, 2006 Author Share Posted October 14, 2006 Please keep in mind that those aren't the only people to consider. These are the first names that popped into my mind. I would like someone to extrapolate why not Ichiro. Not that I agree or disagree about it. It's that I constantly hear good things about him and since he plays all the way out in Seattle that there may be a bias against players on West Coast teams. Maybe because he spent so many good years in Japan that he won't ratch enough productive years in the States. But doesn't the Hall already honor players from foreign leagues or is that just basketball? Well, I won't go so far as to say Pudge is the best catcher in history but I will say he should be considered just for making the Tiger pitching look very good this year. :thumbup Speaking of which, what about Kenny Rogers? He's sort of hung around the league for a long time, in part obvious, because he's a southpaw. Then those two last performances surely would argue that he still can be useful for any team's starting rotation. Any takers on Scott Rolen, Luis Gonzalez or Chipper Jones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltimateCabrera24 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I pretty much agree 100% w/ Fox. No on Rolen, Gonzo, and Chipper as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passion Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Ichiro has only played 6 seasons and he is going to need around 1250+ more hits to be considered. Chipper has the best chance of the three you mentioned, but is a stretch at best. He probably needs 500 more hits and 100 more Home Runs at minimum. With his injury history and age I don't see him getting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passion Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 FWIW, here are the players HOF monitor points (100+ = possible, 130+ = near lock), a Bill James creation: Andruw Jones 99.5 Carlos Delgado 100.5 Ivan Rodriguez 205.5 Craig Biggio 145.0 Tom Glavine 165.5 John Smoltz 142.0 Bernie Williams 133.0 Ken Griffey, Jr. 209.0 Mike Piazza 205.0 Jim Thome 127.5 Frank Thomas 184.0 Alex Rodriguez 266.0 Ichiro Suzuki 144.0 Manny Ramirez 182.5 Pedro Martinez 193.5 Andy Pettitte 98.0 Julio Franco 58.0 Randy Johnson 320.0 I bolded the 130+ players. Ichiro and Bernie suprise me and I still stand by my stance about their potential admission. The number also puts weight on having played on a team that has won a WS, LCS, or DS and I think that definitely boosted Bernie's numbers. Just some more on this, this is a list of all the current pitchers who cross the HOF threshold: 1. Roger Clemens 326 2. Randy Johnson 320 3. Greg Maddux 240 4. Pedro Martinez 193 5. Mariano Rivera 173 6. Curt Schilling 167 7. Tom Glavine 165 8. John Smoltz 142 9. Trevor Hoffman 132 I think all of those are locks besides the aforementioned Smoltz who I mentioned and I'm really suprised to see Schilling up that high. As of now I don't think he is a HOFer. List of all the current batters who cross the HOF threshold: 1. Barry Bonds 345 2. Alex Rodriguez 266 3. Ken Griffey 209 4. Ivan Rodriguez 205 5. Mike Piazza 205 6. Derek Jeter 190 7. Frank Thomas 184 8. Manny Ramirez 182 9. Vladimir Guerrero 163 10. Todd Helton 161 11. Albert Pujols 152 12. Jeff Bagwell 149 13. Admin Walker 147 14. Craig Biggio 145 15. Ichiro Suzuki 144 16. Bernie Williams 133 17. Gary Sheffield 132 1-8 are locks. Vlad potentially, Helton no, Pujols is on pace, Bagwell is in, Walker no, Biggio is in, Ichiro potentially, Bernie no, If Sheffield hits 500 he has a good shot. What stats go into the rankings, what is worth what, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbob1313 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Andruw Jones: With a few more great years, he will probably be. But I don't think he should be. Carlos Delgado: Borderline Ivan Rodriguez: Arguably the greatest catcher ever. A lock. Craig Biggio: A lock Tom Glavine: A lock John Smoltz: A lock Bernie Williams: He'll probably go in, but he doesn't deserve it Ken Griffey, Jr.: A lock Mike Piazza: A lock Jim Thome: Probably won't be in. Frank Thomas: Should be in Alex Rodriguez: A lock Ichiro Suzuki: A lock Manny Ramirez: A lock Pedro Martinez: A lock Andy Pettitte: Extreme borderline Julio Franco: Probably will just because of longevity Randy Johnson: A lock What? Ichiro played 10 seasons in Japan, and won 6 batting titles. You could argue that had he played in America in those seasons, he would've been close to 3,000 hits, with about 160 home runs. I think he's a lock for the HOF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammerhead Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Andruw Jones maybe Carlos Delgado no Ivan Rodriguez yes Craig Biggio maybe Tom Glavine yes John Smoltz yes Bernie Williams no Ken Griffey, Jr. yes Mike Piazza no Jim Thome no Frank Thomas yes Alex Rodriguez maybe Ichiro Suzuki no Manny Ramirez maybe Pedro Martinez no Andy Pettitte no Julio Franco no Randy Johnson yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Altamonte Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Andruw Jones maybe... needs a few more years Carlos Delgado his numbers are just about there I say yes with 3 more productive yrs Ivan Rodriguez 1st ballot lock Craig Biggio no Tom Glavine yes John Smoltz no Bernie Williams Numbers just came up short NO Ken Griffey, Jr. 1st ballot lock Mike Piazza yes Best hitting catcher ever Jim Thome close to 500 HRs may end up with 600 dingers yes Frank Thomas yes Alex Rodriguez yes Ichiro Suzuki yes Manny Ramirez yes Pedro Martinez 206 W's might not be enough No Andy Pettitte no Julio Franco no Randy Johnson yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbob1313 Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 So Jim Thome is a HOFer but not Pedro. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarlinFan10 Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Griffey's a lock to go in, and most likely on the 1st ballot Definatly on the first ballot. The guy was the best player of the 90's, which really isn't something you can argue too much against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbob1313 Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Griffey's a lock to go in, and most likely on the 1st ballot Definatly on the first ballot. The guy was the best player of the 90's, which really isn't something you can argue too much against. Barry Bonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadruple Play Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Anyone who says Pedro Martinez and Craig Biggio are not HOFers, clearly does not know what they're talking about. First off, Craig Biggio is 31st on the all-time hit list. Everyone above him sans Rafael Palmeiro and Rickey Henderson are Hall of Famers. Everyone above him is a signature player of his generation. 14 of the 20 guys below him on the list are HOFers or locks for the HOF. One more season and he will be in the Top 20 all-time. TOP 20! http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/H_career.shtml As for Pedro, he probably won't be a 300 game winner, but between 1997 and 2003 it can be argued he had one of the most dominant periods of all-time post Deadball Era, in a time when offense was at it's all-time peak and home runs were going out at an alarming rate. Sandy Koufax put up similar numbers between 62-66 in a period where the pitcher dominated. Anyone who was around during those years, knows when Pedro was on the mound it was almost a guaranteed loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiambiNYY25Fan Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Miguel Cabrera? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramp Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Mike Piazza no WHAT!?!?!?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbob1313 Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Miguel Cabrera? IF he keeps it stays on this pace for another 15 years and continues to get better each year, he will be considered one of the 10 greatest hitters in NL history. It is important to remember he's only 23 years old. He's probably got another 14 productive years ahead of him, barring a freak injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSwift25 Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Just me, but I think that Bernie Williams gets in. Maybe not a slam dunk first ballot guy, but he's got the career post-season numbers as well as pretty much a .300 career average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureGM Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Andruw Jones- Could use a few more years yet. He's still surprisingly young. Carlos Delgado- Not yet. Ivan Rodriguez- Lock Craig Biggio- Probably in. Tom Glavine- Should make it. John Smoltz- Hard to say, due to his years as a closer. Bernie Williams- Is going to fall just short, like Will Clark or Al Oliver. Ken Griffey, Jr.- In. Mike Piazza- Lock. Jim Thome- Not yet. Frank Thomas- Borderline. Alex Rodriguez- Very close to a lock. Ichiro Suzuki- Doubtful, just because he entered MLB at 30. Manny Ramirez- Yes. Pedro Martinez- Of course. Andy Pettitte- Possibly... Julio Franco- No. Randy Johnson- Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starbrownies Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Andruw Jones- In Carlos Delgado- Borderline Ivan Rodriguez- In Craig Biggio- In Jeff Kent - In Tom Glavine- In John Smoltz- In Bernie Williams- Borderline Ken Griffey, Jr.- In Mike Piazza- In Jim Thome- Borderline Frank Thomas- Borderline Alex Rodriguez- In Ichiro Suzuki- No Manny Ramirez- In Pedro Martinez- In Andy Pettitte- Borderline Julio Franco- No Randy Johnson- In Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Altamonte Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 Anyone who says Pedro Martinez and Craig Biggio are not HOFers, clearly does not know what they're talking about. First off, Craig Biggio is 31st on the all-time hit list. Everyone above him sans Rafael Palmeiro and Rickey Henderson are Hall of Famers. Everyone above him is a signature player of his generation. 14 of the 20 guys below him on the list are HOFers or locks for the HOF. One more season and he will be in the Top 20 all-time. TOP 20! http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/H_career.shtml As for Pedro, he probably won't be a 300 game winner, but between 1997 and 2003 it can be argued he had one of the most dominant periods of all-time post Deadball Era, in a time when offense was at it's all-time peak and home runs were going out at an alarming rate. Sandy Koufax put up similar numbers between 62-66 in a period where the pitcher dominated. Anyone who was around during those years, knows when Pedro was on the mound it was almost a guaranteed loss. Biggio does have 2930 hits, every player that has achieved 3000 hits have gone into the hall (except Pete Rose ofcourse), I am not thrilled with the career .283 average he has hit with good pop as a 2nd baseman (281 hr) and good OBP He has made career numbers mostly out of longevity. He wouldn't be the first one I guess he might get in but it won't be easy for him Pedro has the low Era and almost 3000 Ks but i really believed his career is over. He was dominant for a very good period of time but the Koufax selection scenerio may never be seen again 206-92 is an excellent winning percentage but also tells he was not a durable baseball player...unless he develops diabetes in the near future. I would have to compare him to Guidry in a way who hasn't made it in to the hall. Pedro strikeout number are overwhelming that by itself might take him in to the Hall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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