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Downtown Miami stadium may alienate Marlins fans from Broward, Palm Beach

 

By Sarah Talalay and Noaki Schwartz

Staff Writers

Posted November 3 2003

 

The ticker tape had yet to be cleaned up and fans were still celebrating the Florida Marlins' World Series victory, when words were uttered that failed to delight many Marlins fans in the central and northern parts of South Florida: a new ballpark in downtown Miami.

 

A 38,000-seat retractable roof stadium is far from reality -- the location and the source of millions of dollars to make up the shortfall in an optimistic $325 million plan are still unknown -- but already the idea has raised the ire of some fans in Broward and Palm Beach counties.

 

"There is no way I'm going to go down to Dade County and Miami especially for these games. It's because it's really just too far," said Christine Hatch, a season ticket holder from Delray Beach. "Being in Delray and driving to Pro Player Stadium, you pop on the turnpike, and you're there in 40 minutes. You don't have to worry about fighting for parking, or if it's not safe."

 

Cooper City resident Paul R. Janides says he'd reluctantly go to games in Miami, but he doubts others would be as dedicated.

 

"Miami would be a death knell," Janides said. "Most of their fans are from the north ? Plus there's no parking downtown. People aren't going to pay $10 for a ticket and $20 to park. I'll follow them anywhere, because I'm a baseball fan. But the general public will say 'I go to six games, now I'll go to two.' "

 

Marlins President David Samson said the team considered all its options before trying to forge a deal in Miami-Dade County. He said the economics in Broward wouldn't make the deal work, but he said the team wants to ensure all fans come to a new ballpark.

 

"By making sure that it's safe, comfortable, affordable, entertaining, exciting, easy ingress and egress," Samson said.

 

If a ballpark is built in Miami, the team will be renamed Miami Marlins. Samson said fans will travel to see the team "for the same reason fans in Kentucky go to see the Cincinnati Reds play or fans in New Jersey go see the New York Knicks. We're not turning our back on anyone. We're making a business deal accrue to the benefit of baseball fans and non-baseball fans."

 

The question of where to build a ballpark has always been a thorny one in South Florida where the population stretches across three counties, without a central urban spot. Pro Player Stadium has provided something of a compromise just south of the Broward County line and fans praise its easy parking.

 

But with a lease that benefits the football stadium's owner, by ensuring the Marlins don't receive suite revenue and only portions of concessions and parking, the Marlins have spent years seeking a new home through a public-private financing partnership. Miami-Dade County and Miami politicians have repeatedly offered financial assistance.

 

On Tuesday, the Miami-Dade County Commission is to consider pledging $73 million in hotel bed and sports facilities taxes to a stadium contingent on the Marlins contributing $137 million and covering cost overruns and a complete deal being reached by March 15.

 

The Marlins say 40 percent of their fans hail from Broward County; 13 percent to 15 percent from Palm Beach County; and 40 percent from Miami-Dade County with the rest from outside South Florida. That's what upsets some fans, who say the ballpark should be built nearer the fan base.

 

"I probably would go really occasionally. I don't like going to Miami in general," said season ticket-holder Jan Penovich, of Plantation. "I don't like the drive down there. We used to occasionally go to Heat games and it was a hassle, there was really nowhere to park."

 

Penovich said her husband has season tickets to the Florida Panthers, but he never went when they played at Miami Arena. The Panthers lost Miami-Dade fans when they moved to a new arena in Sunrise in 1998, but gained fans from Broward and Palm Beach counties.

 

While a move south could mean the Marlins lose fans in Broward and Palm Beach even though a drive south at game time would be against traffic, it is expected fans from Miami and points farther south would find it easier to get to games than they do at Pro Player Stadium.

 

Miami Beach resident Audrey Dayan, who gave up Marlins season tickets in 2001, said she would reconsider if the team moves to Miami.

 

"I would certainly love it if they move to Miami. It would be more convenient to me," she said.

 

Kendall Delacruz, of Palmetto Bay near Pinecrest, a Marlins fan since team's inaugural season in 1993, said it would be easy for her to take Metrorail to a downtown Miami stadium. The drive to Pro Player Stadium isn't ideal, but she said her family and friends go hours ahead of game time to tailgate. That experience would be missing with a downtown ballpark.

 

The name change, while largely symbolic and aimed at appeasing politicians, riles some fans as well.

 

"I think you're almost saying the fans not in Miami don't really count," Penovich said.

 

Lake Worth resident Chris Beaton, who is among the Marlins most avid fans, called naming the team after a city "too provincial," but he loves the team so much he said its future locale could have a bearing on where he and his wife decide to move.

 

Others said they just want the Marlins to have a new ballpark so the team's owners can earn enough revenue to continue fielding a competitive team.

 

"The important thing to me is getting them settled," Hollywood resident and long-time fan Ken Strauss said. "Is it my first choice? Absolutely not. I'd love to see them farther north. I'd love to see them in Lauderdale, but nobody seems to be willing to step up ? I don't think there's much of a choice. Get the stadium built and I think they'll come."

Hey Broward and Palm Beach fans: :fyou

 

 

Atleast Miami-Dade is stepping up and trying to build a stadium for the Marlins, unlike your counties. Broward wants no part of it and Palm Beach hardly knows what "Stadium talks" and "bed tax" stand for.

 

 

Oh and if you don't want to drive down to Miami to see the Marlins because its too damn far, then tough cookies and you aren't a true Fish fan! You go see your team no matter where they are located.

 

 

I swear everyone wants the damn thing built in their backyard and if it doesn't everyone gets ticked off! GET OVER IT! :angry If you are so upset about it, why don't you call your head guys in Broward County and tell him how much you want it...not that he'll listen to you, but atleast you will have done something!

like you wouldnt be complaining if it was built up in Boca?

Hey Broward and Palm Beach fans:fyou

 

Right back at 'cha MDC fans. You've had the Fish down there for 10 years and how have you shown your undying support? by filling the place up with 10K fans a night.

 

If a "true fan" should be willing to drive anywhere to support the Fish than why aren't the millions of people in MDC making the 10-30 minute drive?

 

Fans who come out right now from Broward/PBC are the real fans... Besides, we count for probably half of the attendance now, and we drive twice as far as MDC fans do.

 

Build it in Miami and watch millions of people wait in line to not show up again. Second verse, same as the first.

like you wouldnt be complaining if it was built up in Boca?

 

 

 

While I live in Kendall right now and the traffic would be a mother to get up there, atleast I would know that they have a place to play and go to as many games as possible.

 

 

I may not be able to go to all 82 home games, but I would go to a good portion of them. All I'm trying to say is that if you don't want to drive down to watch all the Marlins home games then thats fine. But don't tell me that you are a season ticket holder since '93 and are going to completely stop going to the games because the move it to Miami. Thats just plain stupid.

Yes, it is stupid. Imagine for a moment you live in Boca or farther North and are a season ticket holder.

 

Right now for a weekday night game you have to leave your house no later than 6:00 to get to the game by first pitch.

 

Now imagine you tack another 30-45 minutes onto the bumper-to-bumper drive time by having to go all the way through the glades to downtown.

 

Are you going to leave at 5 or 5:15 to get to a game? Maybe leave work early to do it? No.

 

And let's not forget the allmighty corporate dollar. If you were thinking of buying corporate seats how attractive is it when going to the game cuts into the work day consistently?

Right back at 'cha MDC fans.

 

 

 

 

Fine. If people in Broward and Palm beach are "true fans" like you say, then lets see you guys step up and build them a stadium. Fish Fillet I don't care where you put it, as long as it goes up, and I will go.

 

 

You guys say that you don't want it in downtown Miami, well thats fine. But who else is stepping up right now and willing to help the Marlins pay for it? Tell me who?

You guys say that you don't want it in downtown Miami, well thats fine. But who else is stepping up right now and willing to help the Marlins pay for it? Tell me who?

 

 

I'm reminded of the old adage... "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it."

 

How many times have we gone down this road with Miami/MDC and financing? Belieive it when I see it, thank you very much.

 

Same holds true with my original point about MDC fans not coming out to games. Let's see here... For ten years we've been here and attendance sucks, so lets build a new stadium here!!!

 

FTL is such an obvious choice it's sickening. Central to both northern and southern fans and all that. It's too bad that BroCo isn't as stupid/corrupt/ignorant/unwise as their counterparts in MDC and won't give a dime to help pay for it.

Right back at 'cha MDC fans. You've had the Fish down there for 10 years and how have you shown your undying support? by filling the place up with 10K fans a night.

 

If a "true fan" should be willing to drive anywhere to support the Fish than why aren't the millions of people in MDC making the 10-30 minute drive?

 

Fans who come out right now from Broward/PBC are the real fans... Besides, we count for probably half of the attendance now, and we drive twice as far as MDC fans do.

 

Build it in Miami and watch millions of people wait in line to not show up again. Second verse, same as the first.

Of course, bad attendance is Miami-Dade's fault. Good attendance is credited to those loyal "true" fans from Broward and PBC. :lol

 

Fish Fillet...please grab a map of South Florida. Draw a point on the map on the Broward/MD line near the Turnpike. That's PPS. Now draw a point near Coral Springs in northern Broward. Next...draw a point just below the center of Miami-Dade County which represents Kendall. Measure the distance between PPS and the two points. They are about the same, right? Kendall and Coral Springs represent the center of the southern and northern fan bases, respectively.

 

I live in Kendall. It is a 45 minute drive to PPS on a GOOD day. How far a drive is it from Coral Springs? I can assure you it's not 45 minutes!

 

Next time you say it's Miami's fault for low attendance, please remember this exercise.

 

Of course, you're a "real" fan and I'm sure you'll make the extra 15-20 minute drive from Golden Glades to downtown going against traffic.

Hey Broward and Palm Beach fans:fyou

 

Right back at 'cha MDC fans. You've had the Fish down there for 10 years and how have you shown your undying support? by filling the place up with 10K fans a night.

 

If a "true fan" should be willing to drive anywhere to support the Fish than why aren't the millions of people in MDC making the 10-30 minute drive?

 

Fans who come out right now from Broward/PBC are the real fans... Besides, we count for probably half of the attendance now, and we drive twice as far as MDC fans do.

 

Build it in Miami and watch millions of people wait in line to not show up again. Second verse, same as the first. 10 - 30 minutes drive just show how little you know the area. where the stadium is right now is a lot more convenient for broward fans than it is to dade fans. so where has your support been?

build a stadium in Merritt Island, FL. Oh hell, move to Greenville, SC!

Since my family's South Florida home is in Ft. Lauderdale, I can see where the Sun-Sentinel is coming from. When the late Joe Robbie built the stadium that used to bear his name, I thought he was very smart building it where he did. He centrally located it making it equidistant from Dade and Broward residents. Is there any way the new baseball stadium could be built next to PPS (a la Kaufman Stadium and Aarowhead Stadium in Kansas City), or is there a lack of space?

Why don't we forget all this stupid provincialism and look at this from the point of view of baseball fans? I live in Miami and I wouldn't mind a drive to PPL if they built it right next to it. I would also like to have them in downtown Miami, next to the American Airlines Arena. I really don't care if they change their name, that's just a technicality the team had to agree on with the damn politicians. The fact is that, no matter who builds the stadium, we still have a team we can call our own. Don't tell me Broward fans are going to abandon their team now just because they would be in downtown Miami and not in PPL? I am pretty sure that if you are a baseball fan, you will drive anywhere to see your team. Like I said, I don't mind driving to PPL. And if the name meant something, why would the name Florida Marlins mean for Broward fans something different than the name Miami Marlins? For that matter, why do you feel represented by the current name when people in north Florida do not? Ask anybody from Tallahassee who do they feel more represented by, and don't be surprised if they tell you that the Atlanta Braves or even the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. I would prefer them to stay the Florida Marlins, but the fact is they do not represent Florida as of now, but only South Florida. And you wouldn't call them the South Florida Marlins, would you? The name is of no consequence whatsoever, what is important is that they continue to play down here.

Since my family's South Florida home is in Ft. Lauderdale, I can see where the Sun-Sentinel is coming from. When the late Joe Robbie built the stadium that used to bear his name, I thought he was very smart building it where he did. He centrally located it making it equidistant from Dade and Broward residents. Is there any way the new baseball stadium could be built next to PPS (a la Kaufman Stadium and Aarowhead Stadium in Kansas City), or is there a lack of space?

there's space, i don't know who the land belongs to though.

Fish Fillet...please grab a map of South Florida. Draw a point on the map on the Broward/MD line near the Turnpike. That's PPS. Now draw a point near Coral Springs in northern Broward. Next...draw a point just below the center of Miami-Dade County which represents Kendall. Measure the distance between PPS and the two points. They are about the same, right? Kendall and Coral Springs represent the center of the southern and northern fan bases, respectively.

 

OK, so I put on my hockey helmet, got out my crayons, wiped the spittle off my mouth and did your little exercise.

 

But more importantly, if your demographic assumptions are correct how exactly does a move to downtown provide more of a positive benefit with regards to location?

 

Assume for a moment I am the anti-Loria, hell-bent to build a stadium in the worst place possible. When I get out my map, I want to find a location with horrible freeway access and mind numbing traffic. Then I look for the most sparsly populated area in almost any metropolitan area (Downtown) and for added effect make sure there is no money and lots of crime.

 

Bingo!!! Downtown Miami!! And as an added bonus I'll alienate 20-30 percent of my fan base that lives in FTL or farther north by moving the stadium yet farther away.

Fish Fillet...please grab a map of South Florida. Draw a point on the map on the Broward/MD line near the Turnpike. That's PPS. Now draw a point near Coral Springs in northern Broward. Next...draw a point just below the center of Miami-Dade County which represents Kendall. Measure the distance between PPS and the two points. They are about the same, right? Kendall and Coral Springs represent the center of the southern and northern fan bases, respectively.

 

OK, so I put on my hockey helmet, got out my crayons, wiped the spittle off my mouth and did your little exercise.

 

But more importantly, if your demographic assumptions are correct how exactly does a move to downtown provide more of a positive benefit with regards to location?

 

Assume for a moment I am the anti-Loria, hell-bent to build a stadium in the worst place possible. When I get out my map, I want to find a location with horrible freeway access and mind numbing traffic. Then I look for the most sparsly populated area in almost any metropolitan area (Downtown) and for added effect make sure there is no money and lots of crime.

 

Bingo!!! Downtown Miami!! And as an added bonus I'll alienate 20-30 percent of my fan base that lives in FTL or farther north by moving the stadium yet farther away. there is actually more crime at the current location (carol city) than downtown. also, it's a lo easier to travel south on a weekday than it is to travel north.

No matter where the stadium is built there will be backlash and people upset. I would prefer it in downtown but so long as they get a new ballpark that will ensure the team remains in South Florida I will be happy. Right now downtown makes the most sense financially so of course the Marlins are going to go after that location.

To those who are fighting over who are better fans (Broward or MDC)... Please Shush! :nono

 

Let's first see if the deal gets signed, where the money comes from and how many people will actually show up for the next season games. I do not care if they build it in the moon or where the "real fans" come from, what is important is that they'll have a stadium of their own. Hopefully the lucky ones who get to have the stadium built on their "backyard" (Broward, Palm Beach or MDC) goes to the games, and the fish get the treatment they deserve.

 

No cut it up!

But more importantly, if your demographic assumptions are correct how exactly does a move to downtown provide more of a positive benefit with regards to location?

 

Assume for a moment I am the anti-Loria, hell-bent to build a stadium in the worst place possible. When I get out my map, I want to find a location with horrible freeway access and mind numbing traffic. Then I look for the most sparsly populated area in almost any metropolitan area (Downtown) and for added effect make sure there is no money and lots of crime.

 

Bingo!!! Downtown Miami!! And as an added bonus I'll alienate 20-30 percent of my fan base that lives in FTL or farther north by moving the stadium yet farther away.

Thanks for doing my exercise!

 

A move downtown does NOT provide a more positive benefit for a large part of the population and fan base. I agree with you here and I have stated that a stadium near PPS serves the entire fan base better. My point was that even with the easier accessibility to most of Broward county than from southern Dade, the Marlins at PPS have not drawn well. Broward fans share the blame equally with everyone else.

 

However, there is at the least adequate highway access downtown (I-95). You have another option, mass transit, from both north and south. Metrorail extends north to Hialeah right off the Palmetto and near the end of I-75. Get on Metrorail there and you don't have to worry about parking downtown. In addition, there are plenty of police officers stationed outside of the downtown Metrorail stops. In my dozens of trips on Metrorail to sporting events downtown I have never had a SINGLE problem.

 

The immediate downtown area may not have a lot of people living in it, but you don't have to go more than 3-5 miles and you have Coral Gables, Coconut Grove, Miami Beach, and Little Havana is even closer. These are all areas with significant population and demographical advantages.

 

I admit this move would alienate some fans, but will gain many others from the southern part of the metro area.

I work and go to school in Downtown Miami. I use the MetroRail every day. It's really not as bad as some people think. At the Downtown Metro stations, security is around at all times. Walking from AAA to the Metro Mover is not a big deal because you have police everywhere plus you have people leaving the arena towards the Metro Mover anyways so it's not like you're alone.

To those who are fighting over who are better fans (Broward or MDC)... Please Shush! :nono

 

Let's first see if the deal gets signed, where the money comes from and how many people will actually show up for the next season games. I do not care if they build it in the moon or where the "real fans" come from, what is important is that they'll have a stadium of their own. Hopefully the lucky ones who get to have the stadium built on their "backyard" (Broward, Palm Beach or MDC) goes to the games, and the fish get the treatment they deserve.

 

No cut it up!

Nah...this topic is too much fun to remain quiet!

 

I don't care if they build it in the moon, I'll continue to go to the games (providing they ever finish the proposed Miami-Moon metrorail line) I'm just pointing out a lot of the misperceptions that a lot of people have about negatives surrounding a POSSIBLE stadium downtown.

 

If a new stadium gets built anywhere, we ALL are the lucky ones because we'll get to keep our team here.

Can't Wayne f***ing Huizenga just be forced to sell the stadium to the county so that both the Marlins and the Dolphins can play there and get revenue for the events they hold there!? Instead we are looking at poor options that will end up screwing one section of the fan spectrum either way and costing tax payers millions that could probably go towards better projects. Don't get me wrong, I love my baseball team and want nothing for the best for them. But when it requires hundreds of millions, alienating a large percent of the fan base.....ESPECIALLY when theres a perfectly available stadium in a perfect location. It just pisses me off. Die Wayne F Huizenga.

I have to agree with one section of the article... Parking

 

In Downtown Miami parking prices are what? $25 an hour? And like 1 block away from the stadium? With crappy public transportation. To me... it's would be a total disaster.

I have to agree with one section of the article... Parking

 

In Downtown Miami parking prices are what? $25 an hour? And like 1 block away from the stadium? With crappy public transportation. To me... it's would be a total disaster.

When I go to Heat games:

 

- AAA Parking undergroung is $25+

- Accross the street from the Arena $10

- Bay Side Mall $7-$10 (depending on event). 10 bucks when Washington Wizards were in town with Michael Jordan retirement season.

- few blocks away from the Arena $5

- AAA Parking undergroung is $25+

lmao! $25+... huge ripoff.