I hate to say this but it's the truth. Our season is over. Even if by some miracle we made the playoffs, we can't win anything with this team.

 

 

 

Maybin's playing well.

 

I've noticed.

 

If he gets above .250, I get rid of my sig.

 

If he gets to .300, I make fun of myself in my sig.

 

 

Or maybe you should just look at what he does in September, considering he looks like a different/improved ballplayer right now, with better plate recognition, again.

the worst part about all this is not only this disaster which i think many of us saw coming but the fact that the phillies lost and we havent been able to gain anything on the rockies so with one loss it feels like were done.

Before the walk off, I was terrified Fredi was going to throw Miller in there.

 

 

I would have rather had Miller in there. Our closers combined are worse than Lidge which is absolutely unacceptable.

Our closer's combined have blown a total of 3 games while going for the save. (Leo has 3 blown save opportunities but we won one, Matt has 2 but we also won one.) Brad Lidge has what, 10 blown saves and a 7+ ERA?

 

Saying our closers have been worse than Lidge is wrong. They haven't. But that doesn't mean that both groups haven't been pretty bad.

They sure as hell haven't been good but it's strange to see that they've only blown 4 games all year when going for the save.

I hate to say this but it's the truth. Our season is over. Even if by some miracle we made the playoffs, we can't win anything with this team.

 

 

 

Maybin's playing well.

 

I've noticed.

 

If he gets above .250, I get rid of my sig.

 

If he gets to .300, I make fun of myself in my sig.

 

 

Or maybe you should just look at what he does in September, considering he looks like a different/improved ballplayer right now, with better plate recognition, again.

 

It's been what, 3 games? I need to see a lot more Maybin before I make a new assessment.

 

Right now I focus on the positives, especially Coghlan.

Some of us said that Nunez didn't have the composure to be a closer and was much better kept as a setup guy. Well, my worst case scenario is really coming to fruition at the absolute worst time. Nunez is best kept as a fiery setup man, but sometimes when you try and make those guys closers they crumble. Not only is this hurting our ballclub, now we have likely shattered the confidence of a guy who was our best set-up man.

 

We need to switch at closer in any way possible and NOW. Even in his better outings, Nunez is extremely prone to giving up the long ball. Nobody can afford that in the ninth inning.

 

One thing that I was trying to point out before it happened is that once again, Pinto cost us big time. His bb/9 is now 6.8 and that is just terrible. Pinto could not throw a strike if his life depended on it, and his success depends on hitters swinging at bad pitches. Fortunately for him, that happens semi-frequently and results in strikeouts or poor contact. But a pitcher's success can't rely solely on hitters chasing bad pitches, because (as the 6.8 bb/9 shows) there are a good amount of hitters at the major league level that simply won't chase bad pitches when they are smart enough to know they are coming.

 

While I know the focus is going to be on Nunez because he blew it in the ninth, we hadn't even allowed any runs to score until Pinto came in and opened the door with his poor pitching. This simply has to stop- Pinto will continue to hurt this team until he is removed from the roster. Pinto has seriously regressed this year, and I don't expect him to get better than what he is now because the league knows he can't throw a strike. And, as Logan Kensing showed us earlier this year, pitchers don't magically developed command overnight like some of this board have been hoping.

 

 

 

Btw, thought I'd give a second response to this post, after seeing the Pinto part.

 

Pinto hasn't regressed this year. He's always walked a lot of guys. He's also not as bad as some people make him out to be. He's been used wrong several times, and today was another example. After getting Adam Dunn out, there was no reason for Pinto to be in that game, today. (and yes, I know he got Willingham out, but my point still stands). I've been saying it all year...and once again, he's getting no blame on this thread b/c it's "all about the players." But Fredi Gonzalez is an idiot. He proved why again today. He left Pinto in there so long b/c he wanted the lefty-lefty matchup with......PETE ORR??? Yet another decision by our "manager."

the worst part about all this is not only this disaster which i think many of us saw coming but the fact that the phillies lost and we havent been able to gain anything on the rockies so with one loss it feels like were done.

 

 

 

Why is that bad?

the worst part about all this is not only this disaster which i think many of us saw coming but the fact that the phillies lost and we havent been able to gain anything on the rockies so with one loss it feels like were done.

 

 

Although we now haven't gained anything on the Rockies in the WC this weekend, the positive is we have gained 2 on the Phillies as they got swept by Houston.

Some of us said that Nunez didn't have the composure to be a closer and was much better kept as a setup guy. Well, my worst case scenario is really coming to fruition at the absolute worst time. Nunez is best kept as a fiery setup man, but sometimes when you try and make those guys closers they crumble. Not only is this hurting our ballclub, now we have likely shattered the confidence of a guy who was our best set-up man.

 

We need to switch at closer in any way possible and NOW. Even in his better outings, Nunez is extremely prone to giving up the long ball. Nobody can afford that in the ninth inning.

 

One thing that I was trying to point out before it happened is that once again, Pinto cost us big time. His bb/9 is now 6.8 and that is just terrible. Pinto could not throw a strike if his life depended on it, and his success depends on hitters swinging at bad pitches. Fortunately for him, that happens semi-frequently and results in strikeouts or poor contact. But a pitcher's success can't rely solely on hitters chasing bad pitches, because (as the 6.8 bb/9 shows) there are a good amount of hitters at the major league level that simply won't chase bad pitches when they are smart enough to know they are coming.

 

While I know the focus is going to be on Nunez because he blew it in the ninth, but we hadn't even allowed any runs to score until Pinto came in and opened the door with his poor pitching. This simply has to stop- Pinto will continue to hurt this team until he is removed from the roster.

 

So who's up next on the merry-go-round of love? Kiko, Meyer, or Sanches?

 

All of the above? Who knows? You can't have success with a closer who is giving up the long ball at an alarming rate. You absolutely can't. Because that's a one swing blown save in the making. And that swing is happening at an ever increasing rate. Or haven't you noticed the way the ball flies out of the park when Nunez is pitching? It's not just tonight, it's a problem that just came to head tonight and is likely to continue.

 

Honestly, I think Lindstrom should go back in there. He's thrown much, much better since returning, and in fact he threw much worse at the beginning of the year than we ever saw him throw as a Marlin, lending credence to him likely not being physically right.

 

We aren't making the playoffs with Nunez as closer and probably not with Lindstrom. But given that Nunez has displayed a key thing that you absolutely can't have in a closer (giving up the home run at a constant rate) it's not going to do us well to keep him there anyway.

Some of us said that Nunez didn't have the composure to be a closer and was much better kept as a setup guy. Well, my worst case scenario is really coming to fruition at the absolute worst time. Nunez is best kept as a fiery setup man, but sometimes when you try and make those guys closers they crumble. Not only is this hurting our ballclub, now we have likely shattered the confidence of a guy who was our best set-up man.

 

We need to switch at closer in any way possible and NOW. Even in his better outings, Nunez is extremely prone to giving up the long ball. Nobody can afford that in the ninth inning.

 

One thing that I was trying to point out before it happened is that once again, Pinto cost us big time. His bb/9 is now 6.8 and that is just terrible. Pinto could not throw a strike if his life depended on it, and his success depends on hitters swinging at bad pitches. Fortunately for him, that happens semi-frequently and results in strikeouts or poor contact. But a pitcher's success can't rely solely on hitters chasing bad pitches, because (as the 6.8 bb/9 shows) there are a good amount of hitters at the major league level that simply won't chase bad pitches when they are smart enough to know they are coming.

 

While I know the focus is going to be on Nunez because he blew it in the ninth, we hadn't even allowed any runs to score until Pinto came in and opened the door with his poor pitching. This simply has to stop- Pinto will continue to hurt this team until he is removed from the roster. Pinto has seriously regressed this year, and I don't expect him to get better than what he is now because the league knows he can't throw a strike. And, as Logan Kensing showed us earlier this year, pitchers don't magically developed command overnight like some of this board have been hoping.

 

 

 

Btw, thought I'd give a second response to this post, after seeing the Pinto part.

 

Pinto hasn't regressed this year. He's always walked a lot of guys. He's also not as bad as some people make him out to be. He's been used wrong several times, and today was another example. After getting Adam Dunn out, there was no reason for Pinto to be in that game, today. (and yes, I know he got Willingham out, but my point still stands). I've been saying it all year...and once again, he's getting no blame on this thread b/c it's "all about the players." But Fredi Gonzalez is an idiot. He proved why again today. He left Pinto in there so long b/c he wanted the lefty-lefty matchup with......PETE ORR??? Yet another decision by our "manager."

 

Pinto has always been bad at walking guys, but he has statistically regressed this year, walking more this year in ten less innings than he had last year. I don't think that's a coincidence. As you say, maybe it's not that Pinto has regressed in throwing more balls, its completely possible that the league has progressed in its approach against him, realizing that if you don't swing, there's a good chance you'll get on base.

 

I don't care for criticizing manager strategy one too much, but you are right that he should not be putting Pinto out there in crucial situations. But that still doesn't excuse Pinto from being terrible. His walk rate has to be among the league worst for relievers with significant time.

Some of us said that Nunez didn't have the composure to be a closer and was much better kept as a setup guy. Well, my worst case scenario is really coming to fruition at the absolute worst time. Nunez is best kept as a fiery setup man, but sometimes when you try and make those guys closers they crumble. Not only is this hurting our ballclub, now we have likely shattered the confidence of a guy who was our best set-up man.

 

We need to switch at closer in any way possible and NOW. Even in his better outings, Nunez is extremely prone to giving up the long ball. Nobody can afford that in the ninth inning.

 

One thing that I was trying to point out before it happened is that once again, Pinto cost us big time. His bb/9 is now 6.8 and that is just terrible. Pinto could not throw a strike if his life depended on it, and his success depends on hitters swinging at bad pitches. Fortunately for him, that happens semi-frequently and results in strikeouts or poor contact. But a pitcher's success can't rely solely on hitters chasing bad pitches, because (as the 6.8 bb/9 shows) there are a good amount of hitters at the major league level that simply won't chase bad pitches when they are smart enough to know they are coming.

 

While I know the focus is going to be on Nunez because he blew it in the ninth, we hadn't even allowed any runs to score until Pinto came in and opened the door with his poor pitching. This simply has to stop- Pinto will continue to hurt this team until he is removed from the roster. Pinto has seriously regressed this year, and I don't expect him to get better than what he is now because the league knows he can't throw a strike. And, as Logan Kensing showed us earlier this year, pitchers don't magically developed command overnight like some of this board have been hoping.

 

 

 

Btw, thought I'd give a second response to this post, after seeing the Pinto part.

 

Pinto hasn't regressed this year. He's always walked a lot of guys. He's also not as bad as some people make him out to be. He's been used wrong several times, and today was another example. After getting Adam Dunn out, there was no reason for Pinto to be in that game, today. (and yes, I know he got Willingham out, but my point still stands). I've been saying it all year...and once again, he's getting no blame on this thread b/c it's "all about the players." But Fredi Gonzalez is an idiot. He proved why again today. He left Pinto in there so long b/c he wanted the lefty-lefty matchup with......PETE ORR??? Yet another decision by our "manager."

 

Pinto has always been bad at walking guys, but he has statistically regressed this year, walking more this year in ten less innings than he had last year. I don't think that's a coincidence. As you say, maybe it's not that Pinto has regressed in throwing more balls, its completely possible that the league has progressed in its approach against him, realizing that if you don't swing, there's a good chance you'll get on base.

 

I don't care for criticizing manager strategy one too much, but you are right that he should not be putting Pinto out there in crucial situations. But that still doesn't excuse Pinto from being terrible. His walk rate has to be among the league worst for relievers with significant time.

 

 

It works both ways. The manager deserves just as much blame for CONSTANTLY using the guy who struggles in high leverage situations, as the guy who struggles in high leverage situations.

 

Seriously...I want to manage. Easiest millions I'd ever make. There are people who work harder for their money and don't make nearly as much as this idiot who just sits on his ass during games, and can't even manage a bullpen.

Some of us said that Nunez didn't have the composure to be a closer and was much better kept as a setup guy. Well, my worst case scenario is really coming to fruition at the absolute worst time. Nunez is best kept as a fiery setup man, but sometimes when you try and make those guys closers they crumble. Not only is this hurting our ballclub, now we have likely shattered the confidence of a guy who was our best set-up man.

 

We need to switch at closer in any way possible and NOW. Even in his better outings, Nunez is extremely prone to giving up the long ball. Nobody can afford that in the ninth inning.

 

One thing that I was trying to point out before it happened is that once again, Pinto cost us big time. His bb/9 is now 6.8 and that is just terrible. Pinto could not throw a strike if his life depended on it, and his success depends on hitters swinging at bad pitches. Fortunately for him, that happens semi-frequently and results in strikeouts or poor contact. But a pitcher's success can't rely solely on hitters chasing bad pitches, because (as the 6.8 bb/9 shows) there are a good amount of hitters at the major league level that simply won't chase bad pitches when they are smart enough to know they are coming.

 

While I know the focus is going to be on Nunez because he blew it in the ninth, we hadn't even allowed any runs to score until Pinto came in and opened the door with his poor pitching. This simply has to stop- Pinto will continue to hurt this team until he is removed from the roster. Pinto has seriously regressed this year, and I don't expect him to get better than what he is now because the league knows he can't throw a strike. And, as Logan Kensing showed us earlier this year, pitchers don't magically developed command overnight like some of this board have been hoping.

 

 

Nunez has blown 3 leads as a "closer." Nunez blew 3 leads before becoming the closer.

This closer stuff is crap. He is who he is, regardless of the role he's in. Setup...closer...at the end of the day, it's 1 inning with the lead late in the game. The 2 runs given up today in the 8th, meant just as much as the 3 that were given up in the 9th.

 

Being the closer is different than other roles in the bullpen. The mental stress is much higher on players and thats why some guys just can't handle the closer role at all, while guys like Joe Borowski manage to be employed as a closer even though they aren't even that good of a reliever- it's because some guys can handle the mental stress while others can't.

 

Guillermo Mota, Octavio Dotel, Latroy Hawkins, these guys were ace setup men who pitched poorly in the closer role despite having much better stuff than many closers.

 

I know it seems like the 8th/9th should be the same, but the mental challenge of being the guy to shut the door just is something that not all relievers experience. And it's why you want somebody composed to take over that role- so they don't crumble when things are starting to go wrong.

You're wasting your time Sirspud. If you are speaking to Erick, if it isn't on a stat sheet, it doesn't exist. I mean obviously sports are played by mindless zombies.

 

And yes Erick, of course you can manage a baseball team better than a professional. I mean you get a better picture of the game watching tv than he does in the dugout, it's pretty obvious an 18 year old can manage the Marlins better than somebody who was under the wing of one of the best managers of all time and has spent nearly his entire life around the game.

 

Amazing the arrogance you display on this forum.

Donnelley will be back Volstad will be up as is RVH, Martinez who seems invisible to most people can be tried in a more limited role, you aren't going to jettison Nunez or Lindstrom but until one them can establish themselves again in the roll I think the next part of the schedule allows Fredi and Wiley to look to a closer by committee situation so some guys can get some rest or at least cut down on their innings.

You're wasting your time Sirspud. If you are speaking to Erick, if it isn't on a stat sheet, it doesn't exist. I mean obviously sports are played by mindless zombies.

 

And yes Erick, of course you can manage a baseball team better than a professional. I mean you get a better picture of the game watching tv than he does in the dugout, it's pretty obvious an 18 year old can manage the Marlins better than somebody who was under the wing of one of the best managers of all time and has spent nearly his entire life around the game.

 

Amazing the arrogance you display on this forum.

 

 

i couldnt have possibly said it better myself. he really does think he can manage a team and i find it quite funny.

Some of us said that Nunez didn't have the composure to be a closer and was much better kept as a setup guy. Well, my worst case scenario is really coming to fruition at the absolute worst time. Nunez is best kept as a fiery setup man, but sometimes when you try and make those guys closers they crumble. Not only is this hurting our ballclub, now we have likely shattered the confidence of a guy who was our best set-up man.

 

We need to switch at closer in any way possible and NOW. Even in his better outings, Nunez is extremely prone to giving up the long ball. Nobody can afford that in the ninth inning.

 

One thing that I was trying to point out before it happened is that once again, Pinto cost us big time. His bb/9 is now 6.8 and that is just terrible. Pinto could not throw a strike if his life depended on it, and his success depends on hitters swinging at bad pitches. Fortunately for him, that happens semi-frequently and results in strikeouts or poor contact. But a pitcher's success can't rely solely on hitters chasing bad pitches, because (as the 6.8 bb/9 shows) there are a good amount of hitters at the major league level that simply won't chase bad pitches when they are smart enough to know they are coming.

 

While I know the focus is going to be on Nunez because he blew it in the ninth, we hadn't even allowed any runs to score until Pinto came in and opened the door with his poor pitching. This simply has to stop- Pinto will continue to hurt this team until he is removed from the roster. Pinto has seriously regressed this year, and I don't expect him to get better than what he is now because the league knows he can't throw a strike. And, as Logan Kensing showed us earlier this year, pitchers don't magically developed command overnight like some of this board have been hoping.

 

 

Nunez has blown 3 leads as a "closer." Nunez blew 3 leads before becoming the closer.

This closer stuff is crap. He is who he is, regardless of the role he's in. Setup...closer...at the end of the day, it's 1 inning with the lead late in the game. The 2 runs given up today in the 8th, meant just as much as the 3 that were given up in the 9th.

 

Being the closer is different than other roles in the bullpen. The mental stress is much higher on players and thats why some guys just can't handle the closer role at all, while guys like Joe Borowski manage to be employed as a closer even though they aren't even that good of a reliever- it's because some guys can handle the mental stress while others can't.

 

Guillermo Mota, Octavio Dotel, Latroy Hawkins, these guys were ace setup men who pitched poorly in the closer role despite having much better stuff than many closers.

 

I know it seems like the 8th/9th should be the same, but the mental challenge of being the guy to shut the door just is something that not all relievers experience. And it's why you want somebody composed to take over that role- so they don't crumble when things are starting to go wrong.

I have a problem with this also....although I am open to any way of thinking. 2 runs were scored by the Nats in the bottom of the 8th. I don't like giving up runs at any time of the game but....

We score 2 runs in the top of the 9th....take the lead....now the Nats score 3 runs in the bottom of the 9th....if all things are as you say they are(2 runs vs. 3 runs are equal/or meant just as much)....why did the game end? I give closers more credit(I'm not supporting the way saves are earned). I'm saying it's important to have someone "shut the door" at the end of the game. Because if they don't....your offense has less of a chance to comeback....Today we had no chance(after Nunez)...yet we had a chance in the 9th(after Pinto,Colero)...

Some of us said that Nunez didn't have the composure to be a closer and was much better kept as a setup guy. Well, my worst case scenario is really coming to fruition at the absolute worst time. Nunez is best kept as a fiery setup man, but sometimes when you try and make those guys closers they crumble. Not only is this hurting our ballclub, now we have likely shattered the confidence of a guy who was our best set-up man.

 

We need to switch at closer in any way possible and NOW. Even in his better outings, Nunez is extremely prone to giving up the long ball. Nobody can afford that in the ninth inning.

 

One thing that I was trying to point out before it happened is that once again, Pinto cost us big time. His bb/9 is now 6.8 and that is just terrible. Pinto could not throw a strike if his life depended on it, and his success depends on hitters swinging at bad pitches. Fortunately for him, that happens semi-frequently and results in strikeouts or poor contact. But a pitcher's success can't rely solely on hitters chasing bad pitches, because (as the 6.8 bb/9 shows) there are a good amount of hitters at the major league level that simply won't chase bad pitches when they are smart enough to know they are coming.

 

While I know the focus is going to be on Nunez because he blew it in the ninth, we hadn't even allowed any runs to score until Pinto came in and opened the door with his poor pitching. This simply has to stop- Pinto will continue to hurt this team until he is removed from the roster. Pinto has seriously regressed this year, and I don't expect him to get better than what he is now because the league knows he can't throw a strike. And, as Logan Kensing showed us earlier this year, pitchers don't magically developed command overnight like some of this board have been hoping.

 

 

Nunez has blown 3 leads as a "closer." Nunez blew 3 leads before becoming the closer.

This closer stuff is crap. He is who he is, regardless of the role he's in. Setup...closer...at the end of the day, it's 1 inning with the lead late in the game. The 2 runs given up today in the 8th, meant just as much as the 3 that were given up in the 9th.

 

Being the closer is different than other roles in the bullpen. The mental stress is much higher on players and thats why some guys just can't handle the closer role at all, while guys like Joe Borowski manage to be employed as a closer even though they aren't even that good of a reliever- it's because some guys can handle the mental stress while others can't.

 

Guillermo Mota, Octavio Dotel, Latroy Hawkins, these guys were ace setup men who pitched poorly in the closer role despite having much better stuff than many closers.

 

I know it seems like the 8th/9th should be the same, but the mental challenge of being the guy to shut the door just is something that not all relievers experience. And it's why you want somebody composed to take over that role- so they don't crumble when things are starting to go wrong.

 

And how do you KNOW this? You honestly think Leo Nunez had more mental stress today than Kiko Calero who had to come into the game with the bases loaded and 2 outs in a "non-save" situation?

 

Come on.

 

Also, where are you getting your #'s from? Take a look at Latroy Hawkins career #'s...nothing special. Take a look at the year 2004, which clearly shows that LaTroy Hawkins has been able to have success in the closer's role. Heck...take a look at this year! If it's so damn stressful, why is it that he was able to do the job 11 times, while Valverde was out? This, Latroy Hawkins...at the age of 36?

 

Dotel has 83 career saves.

 

Seriously...do you know what the great closers (Mariano, K-Rod, etc., etc.) were once upon a time? Great setup men. If you're an above average setup man, you can close.

 

As far as Leo Nunez is concerned, http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=nunezle01&year=2009&t=p

 

You might just want to click on that link, and scroll down to where it says "by inning," and surprise yourself.

 

This is simple.

 

The Marlins with 2 average (to be nice) relievers have given those 2 guys (combined) 37 save opportunities. Those 2 guys combined (despite mediocre stats) have converted 32 of their 37 chances. If you can be successful at a role (and get more money in the future JUST for being in that role, and for no other reason) at that % (despite being mediocre/average), that role should be considered overrated.

 

And I'm not the only one who thinks this. There have already been several articles written about this very topic...one article (from what I remember) called it the most overrated role in SPORTS. And his argument was pretty convincing.

You're wasting your time Sirspud. If you are speaking to Erick, if it isn't on a stat sheet, it doesn't exist. I mean obviously sports are played by mindless zombies.

 

And yes Erick, of course you can manage a baseball team better than a professional. I mean you get a better picture of the game watching tv than he does in the dugout, it's pretty obvious an 18 year old can manage the Marlins better than somebody who was under the wing of one of the best managers of all time and has spent nearly his entire life around the game.

 

Amazing the arrogance you display on this forum.

 

 

i couldnt have possibly said it better myself. he really does think he can manage a team and i find it quite funny.

 

You find something that has never been proven quite funny?

You know what's "quite funny?" Your ignorance in this thread: http://www.marlinsbaseball.com/forums/topic/90697-marlins-sign-tom-berenger/page__pid__1889240__st__0&?do=findComment&comment=1889240

me mad.

We aren't making the playoffs with Nunez as closer and probably not with Lindstrom. But given that Nunez has displayed a key thing that you absolutely can't have in a closer (giving up the home run at a constant rate) it's not going to do us well to keep him there anyway.

 

Now when does the FO learn that you have to go out and spend a litte $$$ to get a closer ? You just can't plug in young players there very often and have it work. Next year if we see the same crappy bullpen, don't expect the season to end any differently.

We aren't making the playoffs with Nunez as closer and probably not with Lindstrom. But given that Nunez has displayed a key thing that you absolutely can't have in a closer (giving up the home run at a constant rate) it's not going to do us well to keep him there anyway.

 

Now when does the FO learn that you have to go out and spend a litte $$$ to get a closer ? You just can't plug in young players there very often and have it work. Next year if we see the same crappy bullpen, don't expect the season to end any differently.

 

 

32 for 37...

Occasionally the other team is going to win and today was the day they did. This is not a bad Nationals team, at least not as bad as their record might imply, we took two out three, we won the series and now we go to New York in hopes of doing the same.

 

Don't get me wrong it's a painful loss not to mention the waste of an afternoon a) there's nothing that can be done now and b) I suppose the rest of the day will be spent playing the blame game.

 

I hope not.

 

The really disconcerting thing was how at peace Zimmerman appeared during that his last bat as if he knew what was coming, he was mentality already making the turn around first...

 

He's a starter on the anti-Marlin team.

Occasionally the other team is going to win and today was the day they did. This is not a bad Nationals team, at least not as bad as their record might imply, we took two out three, we won the series and now we go to New York in hopes of doing the same.

 

Don't get me wrong it's a painful loss not to mention the waste of an afternoon a) there's nothing that can be done now and b) I suppose the rest of the day will be spent playing the blame game.

 

I hope not.

 

The really disconcerting thing was how at peace Zimmerman appeared during that his last bat as if he knew what was coming, he was mentality already making the turn around first...

 

He's a starter on the anti-Marlin team.

 

Matt Diaz, Aaron Heilman, Jamie Moyer.........

Occasionally the other team is going to win and today was the day they did. This is not a bad Nationals team, at least not as bad as their record might imply, we took two out three, we won the series and now we go to New York in hopes of doing the same.

 

Don't get me wrong it's a painful loss not to mention the waste of an afternoon a) there's nothing that can be done now and b) I suppose the rest of the day will be spent playing the blame game.

 

I hope not.

 

The really disconcerting thing was how at peace Zimmerman appeared during that his last bat as if he knew what was coming, he was mentality already making the turn around first...

 

He's a starter on the anti-Marlin team.

 

Matt Diaz, Aaron Heilman, Jamie Moyer.........

 

 

Chipper Jones

Some of us said that Nunez didn't have the composure to be a closer and was much better kept as a setup guy. Well, my worst case scenario is really coming to fruition at the absolute worst time. Nunez is best kept as a fiery setup man, but sometimes when you try and make those guys closers they crumble. Not only is this hurting our ballclub, now we have likely shattered the confidence of a guy who was our best set-up man.

 

We need to switch at closer in any way possible and NOW. Even in his better outings, Nunez is extremely prone to giving up the long ball. Nobody can afford that in the ninth inning.

 

One thing that I was trying to point out before it happened is that once again, Pinto cost us big time. His bb/9 is now 6.8 and that is just terrible. Pinto could not throw a strike if his life depended on it, and his success depends on hitters swinging at bad pitches. Fortunately for him, that happens semi-frequently and results in strikeouts or poor contact. But a pitcher's success can't rely solely on hitters chasing bad pitches, because (as the 6.8 bb/9 shows) there are a good amount of hitters at the major league level that simply won't chase bad pitches when they are smart enough to know they are coming.

 

While I know the focus is going to be on Nunez because he blew it in the ninth, we hadn't even allowed any runs to score until Pinto came in and opened the door with his poor pitching. This simply has to stop- Pinto will continue to hurt this team until he is removed from the roster. Pinto has seriously regressed this year, and I don't expect him to get better than what he is now because the league knows he can't throw a strike. And, as Logan Kensing showed us earlier this year, pitchers don't magically developed command overnight like some of this board have been hoping.

 

 

Nunez has blown 3 leads as a "closer." Nunez blew 3 leads before becoming the closer.

This closer stuff is crap. He is who he is, regardless of the role he's in. Setup...closer...at the end of the day, it's 1 inning with the lead late in the game. The 2 runs given up today in the 8th, meant just as much as the 3 that were given up in the 9th.

 

Being the closer is different than other roles in the bullpen. The mental stress is much higher on players and thats why some guys just can't handle the closer role at all, while guys like Joe Borowski manage to be employed as a closer even though they aren't even that good of a reliever- it's because some guys can handle the mental stress while others can't.

 

Guillermo Mota, Octavio Dotel, Latroy Hawkins, these guys were ace setup men who pitched poorly in the closer role despite having much better stuff than many closers.

 

I know it seems like the 8th/9th should be the same, but the mental challenge of being the guy to shut the door just is something that not all relievers experience. And it's why you want somebody composed to take over that role- so they don't crumble when things are starting to go wrong.

 

And how do you KNOW this? You honestly think Leo Nunez had more mental stress today than Kiko Calero who had to come into the game with the bases loaded and 2 outs in a "non-save" situation?

 

Come on.

 

Also, where are you getting your #'s from? Take a look at Latroy Hawkins career #'s...nothing special. Take a look at the year 2004, which clearly shows that LaTroy Hawkins has been able to have success in the closer's role. Heck...take a look at this year! If it's so damn stressful, why is it that he was able to do the job 11 times, while Valverde was out? This, Latroy Hawkins...at the age of 36?

 

Dotel has 83 career saves.

 

 

Look, you really lost on this one. Latroy Hawkins was TERRIBLE in 2004 as a closer. I know, because my dad is a Cubs fan, I am a Cubs fan, and I watched almost all of their games. Hawkins was 25 of 34 for save chances- that means that he pretty much blew one save for every two that he got. How is that in any way good? He got 25 saves through sheer opportunity because the Cubs were extremely strapped for relief help. But all the Cubs announcers, sports writers, and pretty much the coaching staff could talk about was how Hawkins wasn't getting the job done and that he didn't have the makeup to be a closer. But I guess they were all wrong, of course.

 

Nevertheless, Hawkins was traded to San Francisco early the next year after blowing 9 out of 15 save opportunities. That's not good by any measure.

 

I'm sure you looked at his career numbers and thought, "he's nothing special", but Hawkins had an ERA hovering around 2 as a setup man for several years, and had three good years as a setup man (and one bad one) since being converted from a starter. So yes, he was a very highly touted setup man at the time.

 

As for Dotel, yes, he has scattered some saves across a long relief career. But he has only been a full time closer twice- the first time, he ended with with a 5.40 ERA and a sub 70% conversion rate, and in the second time he was 36 for 45, which was seemingly better, but he was still traded by Houston during the season because he wasn't getting the job done good enough. And it's not like Houston was selling a good player- they were getting rid of an ineffective one because they wanted to make the playoffs.

 

It's no coincidence that these guys were never really turned to as closers for longterm stretches again. And I will be no coincidence that Nunez isn't either.

 

I realize that most closers were setup men (where on Earth would they come from), but that doesn't mean that all setup men can be closers. And for the record, I agree with the closer role being over-rated, but that's because you don't have to put the most exciting, most electric, or most dominant pitcher on your team in that role. These skills are over-rated in the closer role and can be much more important for setup men, who are going to be used in a larger variety of situations than a closer. But that doesn't mean that we should accept poor play from a closer, especially when blown saves are about the most deflating way to lose in the game.

the worst part about all this is not only this disaster which i think many of us saw coming but the fact that the phillies lost and we havent been able to gain anything on the rockies so with one loss it feels like were done.

 

 

 

Why is that bad?

 

its not im saying that they lost and instead of closing it out and gaining a game we lost also.