I know money is a factor for next year but it seems like the last several years we haven't been able to get over the hump. Last year it seemed like timely hitting and starting pitching. What will we need to do so that we can be in the Phillies position next year? And be realistic...we are not going to have the Mets or Phillies payroll. I think the should give the closer job back to Lindstrom for the stretch and if he performs, great, we know we can keep him, and if he doesn't we know that we'll need a closer since Nunez is NOT going to be the closer next year. Will Pinto be back? I don't think he'll be back. I think the FO is going to move on with him. Can we retain Kiko? At what cost? The bullpen looked like the problem area going into this season but has performed well.

We need a mentality change. We need to swing a Delmon Young for Garza-like deal somehow. Something that might surprise people and may be high risk but also high reward. Fact of the matter is, we have very little dependable starting pitching and even as amazing as JJ is and has been, he is starting to feel the pressure of having to carry the load by himself and has had some un-JJ like performances because of it.

 

And most of the team mirrors JJ in that the strain of a long season and the pressure of trying to stay in the playoff hunt really wears on them. And no matter how they got there, every Marlins team since 2004 has looked the exact same way down the stretch run.

 

My dream will never happen though because the team is playing to win 5 years down the line and winning now is merely coincidental. Loria, Beinfest, Samson & co. are just biding their time until the new stadium and making small moves (like the Nick Johnson trade) to give the team and fans the impression of caring. I can understand the economics of it all, but it is still frustrating to realize that my favorite organization isn't really playing to win and isn't going to make a single deal that would send out a piece of future talent. The Beinfest model is to keep players around, trading some of the young talent for whatever you can get (like the Jacobs & Willingham deals) and then try to patch up the holes with buy-lows and hoping they work out.

 

I don't entirely disagree with this model, as obviously you can't let talent walk for practically nothing in FA, but over recent years I've disagreed with the guys they've chosen to trade. We've always gotten rid of the guy who had done the least to help the team over the last year instead of trying to package a guy whose trade value is high. The Cabrera trade was closest to what I was talking about, but that seemed more like a mandated "we need to trade Cabrera for the best we can get" deal and not some sort of creative deal with the ultimate goal of bettering this franchise on the field. I'm talking about a deal where we package an up and comer, like a Dan Uggla (a year or two ago) or a Chris Coghlan this year, and try and get a significant return. Some discussed a possible Cantu deal like that and while I strongly disagree with the return (Jonathan Sanchez, he of the no-hitter and poor pitching other than that), it is more along of the lines of what we would need.

 

Again, if we were really going to try and win, I think we would need to find some kind of creative way to bring in some good talent, like a talented young pitcher, while taking a gamble that we could find a way to replace whoever we sent out. But that is not going to happen because the FO would rather strip away Cantu, Uggla, Ross, and Hermida once piece at a time (for God knows what) than try and trade a younger guy (like CC) or even a Maybin and use them to bring in something this team needs even more than them.

I know money is a factor for next year but it seems like the last several years we haven't been able to get over the hump. Last year it seemed like timely hitting and starting pitching. What will we need to do so that we can be in the Phillies position next year? And be realistic...we are not going to have the Mets or Phillies payroll. I think the should give the closer job back to Lindstrom for the stretch and if he performs, great, we know we can keep him, and if he doesn't we know that we'll need a closer since Nunez is NOT going to be the closer next year. Will Pinto be back? I don't think he'll be back. I think the FO is going to move on with him. Can we retain Kiko? At what cost? The bullpen looked like the problem area going into this season but has performed well.

 

 

 

Pinto WILL be back.

Kiko WILL NOT be back.

 

I'm going that far, in terms of predictions.

We need a mentality change. We need to swing a Delmon Young for Garza-like deal somehow. Something that might surprise people and may be high risk but also high reward. Fact of the matter is, we have very little dependable starting pitching and even as amazing as JJ is and has been, he is starting to feel the pressure of having to carry the load by himself and has had some un-JJ like performances because of it.

 

And most of the team mirrors JJ in that the strain of a long season and the pressure of trying to stay in the playoff hunt really wears on them. And no matter how they got there, every Marlins team since 2004 has looked the exact same way down the stretch run.

 

My dream will never happen though because the team is playing to win 5 years down the line and winning now is merely coincidental. Loria, Beinfest, Samson & co. are just biding their time until the new stadium and making small moves (like the Nick Johnson trade) to give the team and fans the impression of caring. I can understand the economics of it all, but it is still frustrating to realize that my favorite organization isn't really playing to win and isn't going to make a single deal that would send out a piece of future talent. The Beinfest model is to keep players around, trading some of the young talent for whatever you can get (like the Jacobs & Willingham deals) and then try to patch up the holes with buy-lows and hoping they work out.

 

I don't entirely disagree with this model, as obviously you can't let talent walk for practically nothing in FA, but over recent years I've disagreed with the guys they've chosen to trade. We've always gotten rid of the guy who had done the least to help the team over the last year instead of trying to package a guy whose trade value is high. The Cabrera trade was closest to what I was talking about, but that seemed more like a mandated "we need to trade Cabrera for the best we can get" deal and not some sort of creative deal with the ultimate goal of bettering this franchise on the field. I'm talking about a deal where we package an up and comer, like a Dan Uggla (a year or two ago) or a Chris Coghlan this year, and try and get a significant return. Some discussed a possible Cantu deal like that and while I strongly disagree with the return (Jonathan Sanchez, he of the no-hitter and poor pitching other than that), it is more along of the lines of what we would need.

 

Again, if we were really going to try and win, I think we would need to find some kind of creative way to bring in some good talent, like a talented young pitcher, while taking a gamble that we could find a way to replace whoever we sent out. But that is not going to happen because the FO would rather strip away Cantu, Uggla, Ross, and Hermida once piece at a time (for God knows what) than try and trade a younger guy (like CC) or even a Maybin and use them to bring in something this team needs even more than them.

 

 

 

That wasn't a big trade?

 

Seriously, for those being critical...what else did you want?

Did you want the front office to trade 1 of Stanton/Morrison/Maybin + others and overpay for a closer? They tried to get starters like Penny off waivers...it didn't happen; that's not the FO's fault. It was a decision Penny made, and he chose the Giants (can't say I blame him, either).

We need a mentality change. We need to swing a Delmon Young for Garza-like deal somehow. Something that might surprise people and may be high risk but also high reward. Fact of the matter is, we have very little dependable starting pitching and even as amazing as JJ is and has been, he is starting to feel the pressure of having to carry the load by himself and has had some un-JJ like performances because of it.

 

And most of the team mirrors JJ in that the strain of a long season and the pressure of trying to stay in the playoff hunt really wears on them. And no matter how they got there, every Marlins team since 2004 has looked the exact same way down the stretch run.

 

My dream will never happen though because the team is playing to win 5 years down the line and winning now is merely coincidental. Loria, Beinfest, Samson & co. are just biding their time until the new stadium and making small moves (like the Nick Johnson trade) to give the team and fans the impression of caring. I can understand the economics of it all, but it is still frustrating to realize that my favorite organization isn't really playing to win and isn't going to make a single deal that would send out a piece of future talent. The Beinfest model is to keep players around, trading some of the young talent for whatever you can get (like the Jacobs & Willingham deals) and then try to patch up the holes with buy-lows and hoping they work out.

 

I don't entirely disagree with this model, as obviously you can't let talent walk for practically nothing in FA, but over recent years I've disagreed with the guys they've chosen to trade. We've always gotten rid of the guy who had done the least to help the team over the last year instead of trying to package a guy whose trade value is high. The Cabrera trade was closest to what I was talking about, but that seemed more like a mandated "we need to trade Cabrera for the best we can get" deal and not some sort of creative deal with the ultimate goal of bettering this franchise on the field. I'm talking about a deal where we package an up and comer, like a Dan Uggla (a year or two ago) or a Chris Coghlan this year, and try and get a significant return. Some discussed a possible Cantu deal like that and while I strongly disagree with the return (Jonathan Sanchez, he of the no-hitter and poor pitching other than that), it is more along of the lines of what we would need.

 

Again, if we were really going to try and win, I think we would need to find some kind of creative way to bring in some good talent, like a talented young pitcher, while taking a gamble that we could find a way to replace whoever we sent out. But that is not going to happen because the FO would rather strip away Cantu, Uggla, Ross, and Hermida once piece at a time (for God knows what) than try and trade a younger guy (like CC) or even a Maybin and use them to bring in something this team needs even more than them.

 

 

 

That wasn't a big trade?

 

Seriously, for those being critical...what else did you want?

Did you want the front office to trade 1 of Stanton/Morrison/Maybin + others and overpay for a closer? They tried to get starters like Penny off waivers...it didn't happen; that's not the FO's fault. It was a decision Penny made, and he chose the Giants (can't say I blame him, either).

 

Yeah, for me, personally, I don't get the mindset that the Johnson deal was an empty suit. For one, that is insulting to us the fans, as if any old trade would appease us. Two, did Johnson not fill a hole we were all talking about? It wasn't a trade for a trade sakes because we ::gasp:: actually filled a need. Third, the deal came out of nowhere, with very little rumor about it before trade deadline. While some may spin that as "Oh, the Marlins just wanted to get in the news about a trade to satisfy its fanbase and took it," I see it as "This deal popped up, the FO saw we could use it, and pulled the trigger, with no deeper thought than that."

 

Who else there could we have realistically got and weren't pursuing? Key word there, pursuing. We were in rumors for some bullpen arms, but couldn't close the deal. That's not indicative one way or the other about whether or not the FO wants to win now. Sometimes the price is steep no matter the endgoal.

What needs to change is the rotation and a real 3rd baseman. It's kind of like how catcher was for us coming into this season. Yeah, trading Hammer and Jake would hurt the offense, but we're barely behind last years team in OPS. Why? HUGE upgrade at C. Of coarse that didn't really work out as planned because of what then happened at 3b but that's neither here nor there. So if we get even something like a .730 OPS out of C next year, we're talking about 3 more wins. If the FO has no faith in Gaby or Emilio going Bourn on us, there are several guys on the market who'll only cost a couple mil. One of the good things for us is that Helms and Gaby if he's not playing 1st can platoon at 3b, so really we'd only need someone that can hit RHP, making the search a lot easier.

 

So then that just leaves the rotation. Either guys start living up to their potential or we go out and get somebody.

It's pretty obvious that whats needed is stability after Johnson in the rotation.

 

Our bullpen has been good all year, and our lineup doesn't have any holes (maybe it lacks a batter that scares people besides Hanley, but now that Bonifacio is out of the starting lineup, you can't say that we have any useless bats in the regular lineup).

 

I'd say trade Uggla and his last 2 years of team control for a reliable starting arm. Sign another reliable starting arm. Move Coghlan to second. Try to re-sign Cantu and one of Gload/Helms (probably won't be re-signing Johnson). Play Morrison at 1st.

 

the roster for next year could look like:

 

C-John Baker, Brett Hayes (in the same role paulino has this year)

1B-Morrison

2b-Coghlan

3b-Cantu

SS-Hanley

LF-Ross

CF-Maybin

RF-Hermida

 

SP-Johnson

SP-Nolasco

SP-Reliable pitcher acquired in Uggla trade (for the sake of an example, let's just say Jonathan Sanchez)

SP-Reliable pitcher acquired via free agency (again, for the sake of an example, let's say Pavano)

SP-Volstad/West/Tucker/Miller/Sanchez

 

Bullpen

Nuñez (CL/SU)

Lindstrom (CL/SU)

Brian Sanches (Being f***ing awesome in any role we choose to use him)

Badenhop (Something like Brian Sanches, just not as awesome)

Dan Meyer (Lefty Specialist or Regular 6th/7th inning dude)

*Volstad/West/Tucker/Miller/Sanchez (Long Relief)

*Volstad/West/Tucker/Miller/Sanchez (again, long relief. or just a routine 6th/7th inning dude)

 

*note- miller or west would have the best chance of being at least one of those, because they're left handed and the marlins are short on lefties after meyer and pinto (who hopefully gets the f*** out)

 

Bench:

 

Gload/Helms

Sanchez

Carroll

Bonifacio (who i actually do find useful as a utility bench player)

Cousins/Raynor

Vic - your biggest problem is that team is going to cost like well over $40 million. Lou has listed projected salaries for 2010 a bunch of times - you should check them out and try and make your team fit around $40 million, or if not, explain why this ownership is going to spring for more than that.

 

FWIW, I kinda want to see Carroll get more starts to have Carroll in RF, Maybin in CF, and Cody in LF so we can have maybe the best defensive outfield in baseball.

I'm not sure how big a deal this point is, but maybe then we could try and acquire reclamation projects or just veteran SP's who don't get as much love because of giving up HRs and being flyball pitchers. If we could bring them to Landshark and give them that defensive outfield, they could easily surpass their contract and expectations if the right guy is brought in.

Luckily the Marlins had the forethought to sign Helms for two seasons so if you expect to keep one of Gload/Helms that decision has already been made for you. I wouldn't be surprised if both return with Bonifacio replacing Amezaga as super utility guy.

 

As for Coghlan playing the infield he hasn't proven he can yet (although he sure has proved he can swing a bat at this level). The best thing going for that argument is he's proven he can adapt and with a better level of coaching may be able in fact make that transition. We'll know pretty quickly after the season and the WS is over what Beinfest's intentions are regarding Uggla if history repeats itself, he starts early to get whatever arb issues he wants resolved out of the way.

More consistency from 3B and starting rotation.

 

Also, we need Maybin to play like he does in September.

Maybin and Miller need to live up to expectations that's whats has to change next year for this franchise to take the next step. Uggla, Nolasco and Hermida are probably gone and maybe Cantu too because he hasn't really lived up to what I think we expected from him after what he did last year. We need some guys to take their game to the next level. A dependable closer would be nice too.

Considering how many of us (me included) are unsure over how much some guys will make/projected to make next year, I have a suggestion.

 

Lou has some fantastic posts about the payroll which goes into a load of detail and shows comparisons with similar players etc to show how he got the $$$ he did. So bearing this in mind, I think it would be of great benefit to this site and its users to pin Lou's massive post (can't remember which thread it was, but it was fairly recently) regarding the 2010 payroll at the top of the Marlins forum.

 

This would allow users to find the numbers quickly and easily and prevent many of the same questions being asked. I am sure Lou is also getting tired of having to post the same thing several times over.

I highly doubt Nolasco goes anywhere. There are way too many question marks in our rotation, and he'll be undervalued due to his poor start to the season.

uggla, hermida, and possibly anibal traded (hopefully he can raise his value). nick johnson will probably sign elsewhere unless some sort of miracle happens that we keep him and amezaga won't be offered arb. i would keep coghlan in left because sometimes a player is so distracted about changing positions that it effects his offense negatively. pinto will stay because he's fairly young and affordable. kiko is gone (this season's version of joe nelson). the bullpen is the easiest position to fill and the marlins have done that for years. the only think i'd like us to do it sign an affordable 1st/3rd baseman (troy glaus) if the organization doesn't believe in gaby and a veteran innings eater to put in the rotation (possibly doug davis, randy wolf, or carl pavano). hopefully maybin and miller perform up to expectation next season

 

my expected subtractions and additions to our major league team next season:

- hermida

- uggla

- gload (maybe keep him at a reasonable amount)

- amezaga

- nick johnson

- kiko calero

- proctor

 

+ maybin

+ troy glaus

+ reliable innings eater

+ gaby

+ andrew miller

uggla, hermida, and possibly anibal traded (hopefully he can raise his value). nick johnson will probably sign elsewhere unless some sort of miracle happens that we keep him and amezaga won't be offered arb. i would keep coghlan in left because sometimes a player is so distracted about changing positions that it effects his offense negatively. pinto will stay because he's fairly young and affordable. kiko is gone (this season's version of joe nelson). the bullpen is the easiest position to fill and the marlins have done that for years. the only think i'd like us to do it sign an affordable 1st/3rd baseman (troy glaus) if the organization doesn't believe in gaby and a veteran innings eater to put in the rotation (possibly doug davis, randy wolf, or carl pavano). hopefully maybin and miller perform up to expectation next season

 

my expected subtractions and additions to our major league team next season:

- hermida

- uggla

- gload (maybe keep him at a reasonable amount)

- amezaga

- nick johnson

- kiko calero

- proctor

 

+ maybin

+ troy glaus

+ reliable innings eater

+ gaby

+ andrew miller

 

 

I don't see proctor coming back. He had his shot. Just my 2 cents. I think everyone can agree the 3B situation needs to be solved. Well, 2B might need to be solved as well if Uggla leaves. Move Boni to 2B and keep Coghlan in LF? I'm finding it hard for them to move him out of the outfield at this point.

I really hate that we're losing Kiko and Gload next year. Gload has been such a great luxury off the bench.

uggla, hermida, and possibly anibal traded (hopefully he can raise his value). nick johnson will probably sign elsewhere unless some sort of miracle happens that we keep him and amezaga won't be offered arb. i would keep coghlan in left because sometimes a player is so distracted about changing positions that it effects his offense negatively. pinto will stay because he's fairly young and affordable. kiko is gone (this season's version of joe nelson). the bullpen is the easiest position to fill and the marlins have done that for years. the only think i'd like us to do it sign an affordable 1st/3rd baseman (troy glaus) if the organization doesn't believe in gaby and a veteran innings eater to put in the rotation (possibly doug davis, randy wolf, or carl pavano). hopefully maybin and miller perform up to expectation next season

 

my expected subtractions and additions to our major league team next season:

- hermida

- uggla

- gload (maybe keep him at a reasonable amount)

- amezaga

- nick johnson

- kiko calero

- proctor

 

+ maybin

+ troy glaus

+ reliable innings eater

+ gaby

+ andrew miller

 

 

I don't see proctor coming back. He had his shot. Just my 2 cents. I think everyone can agree the 3B situation needs to be solved. Well, 2B might need to be solved as well if Uggla leaves. Move Boni to 2B and keep Coghlan in LF? I'm finding it hard for them to move him out of the outfield at this point.

 

exactly, that's why i put a minus beside proctor's name. if uggla is traded i see bonifacio being placed as the starting second baseman (since that's his natural position)

uggla, hermida, and possibly anibal traded (hopefully he can raise his value). nick johnson will probably sign elsewhere unless some sort of miracle happens that we keep him and amezaga won't be offered arb. i would keep coghlan in left because sometimes a player is so distracted about changing positions that it effects his offense negatively. pinto will stay because he's fairly young and affordable. kiko is gone (this season's version of joe nelson). the bullpen is the easiest position to fill and the marlins have done that for years. the only think i'd like us to do it sign an affordable 1st/3rd baseman (troy glaus) if the organization doesn't believe in gaby and a veteran innings eater to put in the rotation (possibly doug davis, randy wolf, or carl pavano). hopefully maybin and miller perform up to expectation next season

 

my expected subtractions and additions to our major league team next season:

- hermida

- uggla

- gload (maybe keep him at a reasonable amount)

- amezaga

- nick johnson

- kiko calero

- proctor

 

+ maybin

+ troy glaus

+ reliable innings eater

+ gaby

+ andrew miller

 

 

I don't see proctor coming back. He had his shot. Just my 2 cents. I think everyone can agree the 3B situation needs to be solved. Well, 2B might need to be solved as well if Uggla leaves. Move Boni to 2B and keep Coghlan in LF? I'm finding it hard for them to move him out of the outfield at this point.

 

exactly, that's why i put a minus beside proctor's name. if uggla is traded i see bonifacio being placed as the starting second baseman (since that's his natural position)

 

I wouldn't object to Boni being the 2B. In a perfect world he'd be Amezega's replacement but I don't know who else we'll find. I hope the FO surprises me.

keep johnson, lose hermida and uggla, keep kiko, sign or acquire 1 veteran reliable inning eating #3 starter. thats a playoff team with the prospects coming up and the growth of the younger 4/5 pitchers.

 

o and trade anibal

keep johnson, lose hermida and uggla, keep kiko, sign or acquire 1 veteran reliable inning eating #3 starter. thats a playoff team with the prospects coming up and the growth of the younger 4/5 pitchers.

 

o and trade anibal

 

Both guys you want to keep have to want to resign and I don't think either want to.

 

 

Wow there are a lot of "to"s in that sentence.

what are to's?

 

if you give johnson a 2 year 3.5 mill deal, then we should go for it and not look back. every team needs a guy like him in the 2 spot. and kiko probably wont stay, i know that.

what are to's?

 

if you give johnson a 2 year 3.5 mill deal, then we should go for it and not look back. every team needs a guy like him in the 2 spot. and kiko probably wont stay, i know that.

 

You realize that NJ is finishing up a 3 year/$16.5 million

 

Nick Johnson 1b

3 years/$16.5M (2007-09)

 

3 years/$16.5M (2007-09)

signed extension with Washington 3/06

07:$5.5M, 08:$5.5M, 09:$5.5M

acquired by Florida in trade from Washington 7/31/09

 

1 year/$3.2M (2006)

re-signed 1/06 (avoided arbitration)

may earn up to $0.25M in performance bonuses for:

130-150 games, or

 

510-590 plate appearances

 

1 year/$1.45M (2005), avoided arbitration 1/05

1 year/$1.25M (2004), lost arbitration 2/04 ($1.68M-$1.25M)

1 year/$0.3641M (2003)

agent: Rex Gary

 

ML service: 8.041

 

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005_01_19_mlbcontracts_archive.html

 

I can't speak for him but that's quite a paycut...

what are to's?

 

if you give johnson a 2 year 3.5 mill deal, then we should go for it and not look back. every team needs a guy like him in the 2 spot. and kiko probably wont stay, i know that.

 

 

why the hell would he take a paycut when he's having a good year and has been mostly injury-free. try 2 years and 10-12 million

what are to's?

 

if you give johnson a 2 year 3.5 mill deal, then we should go for it and not look back. every team needs a guy like him in the 2 spot. and kiko probably wont stay, i know that.

 

You realize that NJ is finishing up a 3 year $16.5

 

Nick Johnson 1b

3 years/$16.5M (2007-09)

 

3 years/$16.5M (2007-09)

signed extension with Washington 3/06

07:$5.5M, 08:$5.5M, 09:$5.5M

acquired by Florida in trade from Washington 7/31/09

 

1 year/$3.2M (2006)

re-signed 1/06 (avoided arbitration)

may earn up to $0.25M in performance bonuses for:

130-150 games, or

 

510-590 plate appearances

 

1 year/$1.45M (2005), avoided arbitration 1/05

1 year/$1.25M (2004), lost arbitration 2/04 ($1.68M-$1.25M)

1 year/$0.3641M (2003)

agent: Rex Gary

 

ML service: 8.041

 

http://mlbcontracts....ts_archive.html

 

I can't speak for him but that's quite a paycut...

 

i can speak for him and he'd say to the marlins "FU.CK YOU" if they offered him 2 years and 3.5 million

what are to's?

 

if you give johnson a 2 year 3.5 mill deal, then we should go for it and not look back. every team needs a guy like him in the 2 spot. and kiko probably wont stay, i know that.

 

 

why the hell would he take a paycut when he's having a good year and has been mostly injury-free. try 2 years and 10-12 million

 

 

if you were a gm and you offered nick johnson 10-12 million you would be fired on the spot