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Cantu is the next topic on ESPN First Take


mystikol87
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While I'd give more credit than that to Cantu... I think this record has been a bit exaggerated as of how big it is. Being on a 9 game RBI streak isnt unheard of. The fact that he had hits for those RBI's is pretty awesome, but none the less it's a 9 game hitting streak and a 9 game RBI streak combined. Make it like 20 games and then we're talkin.

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While I'd give more credit than that to Cantu... I think this record has been a bit exaggerated as of how big it is. Being on a 9 game RBI streak isnt unheard of. The fact that he had hits for those RBI's is pretty awesome, but none the less it's a 9 game hitting streak and a 9 game RBI streak combined. Make it like 20 games and then we're talkin.

 

 

I sort of agree here.

 

But if it means anything, the people on Sportscenter were like... "1 Hit and 1 RBI in each of their first 9 games of the season was accomplished by... Babe Ruth? Mickey Mantle? Ted Williams? Albert Pujols? Nope, Jorge Cantu!"

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eric kuselius is an idiot. he seriously compared cantu's record breaking achievement with people that do cup stacking.

 

 

He's a faggy Jets fan so I wipe my ass with his opinions.

 

Stay classy.

 

The Jets do put the 'ass' in class

 

That's, "The Jets fans take the 'cl' out of 'class'."

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Clark Spencer

 

Baseball Analyst Not Impressed with Cantu's RBI Streak; Coghlan Still Out

 

Keith Law was at Sun Life Stadium on Wednesday when Jorge Cantu went deep off Cincinnnati's Homer Bailey in the fifth inning. But Law was momentarily occupied and missed the blow that put Cantu in the record books for having the longest streak of games with an RBI to start a season: nine.

 

"I'm devastated," Law said mockingly.

 

Law, senior baseball analyst for Scouts, Inc., regular columnist for ESPN.com, and a former special assistant to the general manager for the Toronto Blue Jays, is not in awe of Cantu's major league record RBI mark. Far from it. It has nothing to do with Cantu, whom Law dismisses as "below average" offensively and defensively for a corner infielder -- "a trade or non-tender waiting to happen" -- and everything to do with his utter abhorrence of the RBI as a statistic.

 

"It doesn't really tell us anything useful about the player's performance, that's the bottom line for me," said Law, who argues that RBI, pitching wins and saves are the three most overvalued statistics in baseball. "I still look at the stats. But the RBI column, I just will not be there. About the most useful thing it tells you is how much a guy plays -- the more you play, the more RBI you have -- and it tells you how often the guy in front of him gets on base. Of course, if you want to know how often a guy gets on base, just look at their on-base percentage."

 

Law said the "bellweather" in the RBI debate is former major leaguer Joe Carter, who drove in 115 runs for the 1990 Blue Jays. But Carter was substandard in just about every other regard. He posted a miserable on-base percentage of .290, which was one of the 10 worst figures in the majors that season, and an equally lousy OPS (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage) of .681.

 

"If you look at RBI, you think he had a great year," Law said. "But if you look at the statistics, he didn't have a great season. It was very ugly. But he played in 162 games."

 

It has been often said that Cantu has a "knack" for driving in runs, reasoning that Law also finds fault with.

 

"You slap anybody who says that," Law said. "It is stupid. That whole thing just has to die. You know, the implication when somebody says that is when nobody is on base, this guy takes off for the at bat. I don't think we've ever encountered a player who is consistently better with runners in scoring position. It's true of almost every player."

 

Case in point is Cantu, who is a career .278 hitter overall. Cantu's career average with runners in scoring position: .285.

 

Cantu hasn't exactly been tearing the cover off the ball during his RBI streak, which actually started late last season. During the current 13-game stretch in which Cantu has had at least one RBI, he's gone 18 for 52 at the plate, a solid but not otherworldly .346 average.

 

"What's more important? RBI or runs scored?," Law asked. "If you were going to focus on either of these things, the runs scored stat would be more valuable. The hardest thing is to get on base. You can knock in a run with an out.

 

"With Cantu's streak, what if he goes 5 for 5 and nobody was on base? If that's how a streak can end, where the hitter does everything but hit a home run and the other hitters didn't get on base for him, then the streak is worthless. It's all about context."

 

I mentioned to Law that Cantu is closing in on the major league record for consecutive games with an RBI: 17. The record was set in 1922 by Ray Grimes Sr. of the Chicago Cubs.

 

"I hate to sort of couch it in popular terms," Law said. "But the fact I've never heard of the guy you just mentioned doesn't speak very highly of the importance of the record."

 

Some Marlins take extreme exception to the thinking that the RBI is overrated.

 

"I think it's the most important statistic," said former Marlin Jeff Conine, who is how a special assistant to president David Samson.

 

Said bench coach Carlos Tosca: "This ain't math. This is baseball."

 

 

Read more: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/fish_bytes/2010/04/baseball-analyst-not-impressed-with-cantus-rbi-streak.html#ixzz0lCvbA0rn

 

Personally I have never liked Law but I can see his point.

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I think RBI and Win/Loss can be an unfair statistic, because it so relies on other players instead of just yourself, but calling it useless? Like I said, I don't think it's a particularly amazing record Cantu broke, but Keith Law is a chump. RBIs is how you WIN a game. And WINNING a game is the entire point.

 

Ricky Henderson holds so many batting/base running records in baseball, but if you were to ask him the most important record he holds? It wouldn't be his 1400+ stolen bases or lead off home runs or lead off walks. It would be RUNS SCORED because thats the entire objective of the game: score runs and WIN. (EDIT: Ah, wouldn't you know it? I actually have proof)

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The only thing wrong about Law's article is the RBI's/runs scored comparison. A player can score a run while being out, too. Man at 1st, player hits a groundball for a force out...player later scores a run. The RBI is actually better than runs scored, imo. Sac Fly's are productive outs, and there is/should be such a thing, imo.

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There's a time and place for everything but I could imagine Law leading a bunch of abortion protesters at a dead American soldier's funeral protesting his cause louder than anybody there just to make his point and get a little self-publicity. Not only does he diss the accomplishment he refers to Cantu as "a trade or non-tender waiting to happen". To me, in the moment, that over the top and just plain rude.

 

This from a guy who himself can't hold a job (fired "consultant" and assistant to the GM in Toronto and bounced from place to place since) with hangers-on internet credentials and a writing style to match. His argument it seems is how overrated the RBI stat is and no matter the moment or circumstance he'll trot out his cock-eyed theory he masquerades as fact as if the game of baseball could exist without runs batted in. As Carlos Tosca said in response to Law's rant, (a line I may steal for myself from time to time ) "This ain't math. This is baseball".

 

There's a reason Tosca is on the inside looking out from the dugout tonight and Law is on the outside looking in, and his comments last night only proves it.

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Keith Law angers me more than any other insider on ESPN. I think sometimes that when he goes to baseball games, he doesn't watch the game be played, rather he sits there and waits for the statistics to be formulated so he can make an opinion on how the game is going.

 

I understand RBI's aren't as useful a statistic as many others in baseball, but to call it useless is just ignorance, considering a hitters job to bring runs is just as important as getting on base to get those runs scored. I fully understand RBI's are dependent on the player batting in front of you, but it seems Law seems to not be open minded at all on the matter.

 

I'm not going to lie, I truely do not like Keith Law. Every time he speaks on ESPN, he simply speaks and acts like an arrogant pr*ck who believes he is better than everybody else because he can read a stat sheet. Hate people like him, who are completely closed minded in their sabermetrics world.

 

/rant

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There's a time and place for everything but I could imagine Law leading a bunch of abortion protesters at a dead American soldier's funeral protesting his cause louder than anybody there just to make his point and get a little self-publicity. Not only does he diss the accomplishment he refers to Cantu as "a trade or non-tender waiting to happen". To me, in the moment, that over the top and just plain rude.

 

This from a guy who himself can't hold a job (fired "consultant" and assistant to the GM in Toronto and bounced from place to place since) with hangers-on internet credentials and a writing style to match. His argument it seems is how overrated the RBI stat is and no matter the moment or circumstance he'll trot out his cock-eyed theory he masquerades as fact as if the game of baseball could exist without runs batted in. As Carlos Tosca said in response to Law's rant, (a line I may steal for myself from time to time ) "This ain't math. This is baseball".

 

There's a reason Tosca is on the inside looking out from the dugout tonight and Law is on the outside looking in, and his comments last night only proves it.

 

 

I'm not going to lie, this is my favorite post in about 2 years on this site. I love it!

 

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

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Keith Law angers me more than any other insider on ESPN. I think sometimes that when he goes to baseball games, he doesn't watch the game be played, rather he sits there and waits for the statistics to be formulated so he can make an opinion on how the game is going.

 

I understand RBI's aren't as useful a statistic as many others in baseball, but to call it useless is just ignorance, considering a hitters job to bring runs is just as important as getting on base to get those runs scored. I fully understand RBI's are dependent on the player batting in front of you, but it seems Law seems to not be open minded at all on the matter.

 

I'm not going to lie, I truely do not like Keith Law. Every time he speaks on ESPN, he simply speaks and acts like an arrogant pr*ck who believes he is better than everybody else because he can read a stat sheet. Hate people like him, who are completely closed minded in their sabermetrics world.

 

/rant

 

 

Pretty much how I feel about him. I remember him being on with one of the 790 guys and they asked him about Stanton and Law rattles off a bunch guys he thinks are better prospects than Stanton. I also believe he is short so he may have the napoleon complex which makes him sound so arrogant.

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There's a time and place for everything but I could imagine Law leading a bunch of abortion protesters at a dead American soldier's funeral protesting his cause louder than anybody there just to make his point and get a little self-publicity. Not only does he diss the accomplishment he refers to Cantu as "a trade or non-tender waiting to happen". To me, in the moment, that over the top and just plain rude.

 

This from a guy who himself can't hold a job (fired "consultant" and assistant to the GM in Toronto and bounced from place to place since) with hangers-on internet credentials and a writing style to match. His argument it seems is how overrated the RBI stat is and no matter the moment or circumstance he'll trot out his cock-eyed theory he masquerades as fact as if the game of baseball could exist without runs batted in. As Carlos Tosca said in response to Law's rant, (a line I may steal for myself from time to time ) "This ain't math. This is baseball".

 

There's a reason Tosca is on the inside looking out from the dugout tonight and Law is on the outside looking in, and his comments last night only proves it.

 

 

Very well said

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Keith law is almost exactly right about RBIs.

 

However, it seems like he enjoys taking the accomplishments of Marlins players to bash them and promote his theories. To be fair, I imagine he was approached for his opinion. I have a feeling Spencer/Navarro had an idea what was about to ensue.

 

This is the same sh*t he pulled when Coghlan won ROY. Every single time he spoke about it, all he did was rip Coghlan a new one based off of his below-average defense (at a brand new position, I might add). Does defense matter? Of course. Are RBIs severely overrated? Yes.

 

But there is something in between gushingly lying about an "accomplishment" you don't hold in high regard and completely bashing a player as a "non-tender waiting to happen". It's called class, and Keith Law has absolutely none.

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Check out his twitter. He rips the Marlins ad nausem. He's the pretentious obnxious guy who makes people stay away from baseball.

 

http://twitter.com/keithlaw

 

And for good measure:

He's good at baseball. RT @Ben_Yoel: @keithlaw Can you give me a quick scouting report on Machado?

 

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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