August 6, 201015 yr Not sure of the exact rule here, but if that first bounce off the bat landed foul near the plate....is it possible that it's considered foul even if it proceeds to go curve back and go over the bag and land fair like this one?
August 6, 201015 yr Not sure of the exact rule here, but if that first bounce off the bat landed foul near the plate....is it possible that it's considered foul even if it proceeds to go curve back and go over the bag and land fair like this one? The ball can go foul and come back fair until it reaches the bag. Think of when a hitter drops a bunt down and a fielder scoops it up as soon as it goes foul to make sure it doesn't come back in fair.
August 6, 201015 yr I can't think of a way that ball ever reached foul territory. The ball bounced just before reaching the bag and it was on the line. Then it went over the bag and landed even more inside fair territory (about 5 inches). If it had hit some sort of pebble or anything else to bring it back in play, it would've had to be in fair territory considering the first bounce before going over 3rd base was in fair territory. The laws of physics just don't allow for that ball to land in fair territory, spin AROUND the bag out of and then back in foul territory and somehow land back into fair territory beyond the bag. I've never seen a type of spin on the ball that would allow for that ball to have made such a wicked backward spin on a ball. Let's also consider that Gaby is a right handed hitter. How could be possibly put that kind of spin on a ball that usually can only be generated by a left handed bat. I've tried to think of some possible way that ball could've been in foul territory when it goes over the bag, but I can't think of any conceivable spin that ball could've taken that would allow it to land before the bag in fair territory, go over the bag in foul territory and miraculously come back in fair territory on the next bounce.
August 6, 201015 yr I saw this on MLB network last night and reynolds was definitely explaining how he could of made abad call .... not how the call was right basically saying that the ball took a bad hop, it looked like it was going to go foul and the ump made up his mind at that point and started to rule it foul without really tracking the full progression of the ball ..... balls can hit fair and then take an odd hop and spin foul what you aren't going to do is get a ball that has already had a bounce have enough motion remaining to take another bounce in fair territory, completely spin foul as it crosses the bag and then have enough juice left to land in fair territory deeper than when it originally bounced ..... just doesn't happen and this is why it's important for old chubby to watch the entire play - let physics help you out a little with your calls instead of just anticipating and making a rash decision
August 6, 201015 yr I can't think of a way that ball ever reached foul territory. The ball bounced just before reaching the bag and it was on the line. Then it went over the bag and landed even more inside fair territory (about 5 inches). If it had hit some sort of pebble or anything else to bring it back in play, it would've had to be in fair territory considering the first bounce before going over 3rd base was in fair territory. The laws of physics just don't allow for that ball to land in fair territory, spin AROUND the bag out of and then back in foul territory and somehow land back into fair territory beyond the bag. I've never seen a type of spin on the ball that would allow for that ball to have made such a wicked backward spin on a ball. Let's also consider that Gaby is a right handed hitter. How could be possibly put that kind of spin on a ball that usually can only be generated by a left handed bat. I've tried to think of some possible way that ball could've been in foul territory when it goes over the bag, but I can't think of any conceivable spin that ball could've taken that would allow it to land before the bag in fair territory, go over the bag in foul territory and miraculously come back in fair territory on the next bounce. Well the ball seemed like it was in foul territory on the first bounce, and then was on the line on the second, and then on the third bounce was a couple inches in. Think of the crazy path the ball took as is. It did not take a straight line no matter how you slice it, especially from a right handed batter. How does a pulled ball become more fair as it does down the line, only to spin foul again after the third bounce? Because the surface it is bouncing on is not smooth, and because the way the ball spins can do crazy things to it. It's a judgment call, and Davidson was right there, as close as anyone, and had just a good of an angle as any camera on the matter.
August 6, 201015 yr I can't think of a way that ball ever reached foul territory. The ball bounced just before reaching the bag and it was on the line. Then it went over the bag and landed even more inside fair territory (about 5 inches). If it had hit some sort of pebble or anything else to bring it back in play, it would've had to be in fair territory considering the first bounce before going over 3rd base was in fair territory. The laws of physics just don't allow for that ball to land in fair territory, spin AROUND the bag out of and then back in foul territory and somehow land back into fair territory beyond the bag. I've never seen a type of spin on the ball that would allow for that ball to have made such a wicked backward spin on a ball. Let's also consider that Gaby is a right handed hitter. How could be possibly put that kind of spin on a ball that usually can only be generated by a left handed bat. I've tried to think of some possible way that ball could've been in foul territory when it goes over the bag, but I can't think of any conceivable spin that ball could've taken that would allow it to land before the bag in fair territory, go over the bag in foul territory and miraculously come back in fair territory on the next bounce. Well the ball seemed like it was in foul territory on the first bounce, and then was on the line on the second, and then on the third bounce was a couple inches in. Think of the crazy path the ball took as is. It did not take a straight line no matter how you slice it, especially from a right handed batter. How does a pulled ball become more fair as it does down the line, only to spin foul again after the third bounce? Because the surface it is bouncing on is not smooth, and because the way the ball spins can do crazy things to it. It's a judgment call, and Davidson was right there, as close as anyone, and had just a good of an angle as any camera on the matter. i dont give a sh*t where the umpire THINKS the ball was going to go. that asshole is supposed to do his job and follow the ball until he can be certain. thats like calling a home run fair before it ever crosses the foul pole. this was complete and utter bulls*** and gave us a nice hit in the standings as well. davidson should be suspended for his actions and making a completely amateur call. you know jim joyce owned up to his mistake and on top of that was actually looking at the f***ing play at first base when it happened. i never knew umpires are allowed to make calls based on where they think the ball will go and i dont care how close you are to the play. the entire stadium stood up thinking it was a base hit yet the one idiot who thinks its foul is the guy closest to the play. **sorry for the cursing, not directed at you.
August 6, 201015 yr There's actually an IFP ("imaginary foul pole") which extends up from the third base bag (either the corner nearest the plate or the OF - not sure which). Just like the OF foul pole, if a batted ball "strikes" any part of the IFP, it is a fair ball. Davidson anticipated that Sanchez' ball would not touch the IFP, & he called it foul prematurely. He did not consider that the ball would take a "bad hop" to push it toward fair territory. I still can't understand why ERod did not play the remainder of the game under protest.
August 6, 201015 yr I can't think of a way that ball ever reached foul territory. The ball bounced just before reaching the bag and it was on the line. Then it went over the bag and landed even more inside fair territory (about 5 inches). If it had hit some sort of pebble or anything else to bring it back in play, it would've had to be in fair territory considering the first bounce before going over 3rd base was in fair territory. The laws of physics just don't allow for that ball to land in fair territory, spin AROUND the bag out of and then back in foul territory and somehow land back into fair territory beyond the bag. I've never seen a type of spin on the ball that would allow for that ball to have made such a wicked backward spin on a ball. Let's also consider that Gaby is a right handed hitter. How could be possibly put that kind of spin on a ball that usually can only be generated by a left handed bat. I've tried to think of some possible way that ball could've been in foul territory when it goes over the bag, but I can't think of any conceivable spin that ball could've taken that would allow it to land before the bag in fair territory, go over the bag in foul territory and miraculously come back in fair territory on the next bounce. Well the ball seemed like it was in foul territory on the first bounce, and then was on the line on the second, and then on the third bounce was a couple inches in. Think of the crazy path the ball took as is. It did not take a straight line no matter how you slice it, especially from a right handed batter. How does a pulled ball become more fair as it does down the line, only to spin foul again after the third bounce? Because the surface it is bouncing on is not smooth, and because the way the ball spins can do crazy things to it. It's a judgment call, and Davidson was right there, as close as anyone, and had just a good of an angle as any camera on the matter. I looked at it frame by frame and that ball looked fair on the first hop. Given the camera angle and how close it was it might have been foul but I'm fairly certain it was fair. Moving on. Regardless, the ball might not take a straight line but it DOES take a straight line between hops. That ball was fair, went over the bag, and landed fair. There's no way it was foul. It's impossible. Yes, spin makes balls do things, but not like that. I'll give anyone $100 bucks if they can recreate that play with the ball being foul over the bag. That's safe money, because physics doesn't work that way. We're not talking about a ball that was pulled foul that has some crazy spin and velocity, we're talking about a ball that bounced 3 time, once after the bag and twice before it, and was fair every time. Just zero way it was foul over the bag, the physics just isn't there.
August 6, 201015 yr There's actually an IFP ("imaginary foul pole") which extends up from the third base bag (either the corner nearest the plate or the OF - not sure which). Just like the OF foul pole, if a batted ball "strikes" any part of the IFP, it is a fair ball. Davidson anticipated that Sanchez' ball would not touch the IFP, & he called it foul prematurely. He did not consider that the ball would take a "bad hop" to push it toward fair territory. I still can't understand why ERod did not play the remainder of the game under protest. yes i think he should have played under protest as well and yet again you just cannot make premature calls.
August 6, 201015 yr Not sure of the exact rule here, but if that first bounce off the bat landed foul near the plate....is it possible that it's considered foul even if it proceeds to go curve back and go over the bag and land fair like this one? The ball can go foul and come back fair until it reaches the bag. Think of when a hitter drops a bunt down and a fielder scoops it up as soon as it goes foul to make sure it doesn't come back in fair. I know the ball that's first fair can go foul and fair and back before reaching the base...but what about one that's immediate first landing spot is foul...like last night's one might have been. Can't seem to find a definitive rule..though I did find an interesting rule I did not know. If a batted ball hits the pitcher's rubber, and rebounds foul...it's a foul ball!
August 6, 201015 yr Not sure of the exact rule here, but if that first bounce off the bat landed foul near the plate....is it possible that it's considered foul even if it proceeds to go curve back and go over the bag and land fair like this one? The ball can go foul and come back fair until it reaches the bag. Think of when a hitter drops a bunt down and a fielder scoops it up as soon as it goes foul to make sure it doesn't come back in fair. I know the ball that's first fair can go foul and fair and back before reaching the base...but what about one that's immediate first landing spot is foul...like last night's one might have been. Can't seem to find a definitive rule..though I did find an interesting rule I did not know. If a batted ball hits the pitcher's rubber, and rebounds foul...it's a foul ball! Fair or foul at or before the first and third base bags is determined by where the ball stops, not where it starts. So, if it was foul at first, it doesn't matter, it matters where the ball is when it stops or reaches the base.
August 6, 201015 yr Not sure of the exact rule here, but if that first bounce off the bat landed foul near the plate....is it possible that it's considered foul even if it proceeds to go curve back and go over the bag and land fair like this one? The ball can go foul and come back fair until it reaches the bag. Think of when a hitter drops a bunt down and a fielder scoops it up as soon as it goes foul to make sure it doesn't come back in fair. I know the ball that's first fair can go foul and fair and back before reaching the base...but what about one that's immediate first landing spot is foul...like last night's one might have been. Can't seem to find a definitive rule..though I did find an interesting rule I did not know. If a batted ball hits the pitcher's rubber, and rebounds foul...it's a foul ball! If a ball does not land until after it passes the base then it is fair or foul depending on where it is in relation to the line. If a ball bounces before the bag, but never passes the bag, then it is ruled foul or fair depending on where it comes to rest, or where it is first touched. If a ball bounces before the bag, and bounces past one of the bags, then it is ruled on if it was fair or foul when it passed the bag, not where it eventually comes to a stop, nor where it is touched.
August 6, 201015 yr I can't think of a way that ball ever reached foul territory. The ball bounced just before reaching the bag and it was on the line. Then it went over the bag and landed even more inside fair territory (about 5 inches). If it had hit some sort of pebble or anything else to bring it back in play, it would've had to be in fair territory considering the first bounce before going over 3rd base was in fair territory. The laws of physics just don't allow for that ball to land in fair territory, spin AROUND the bag out of and then back in foul territory and somehow land back into fair territory beyond the bag. I've never seen a type of spin on the ball that would allow for that ball to have made such a wicked backward spin on a ball. Let's also consider that Gaby is a right handed hitter. How could be possibly put that kind of spin on a ball that usually can only be generated by a left handed bat. I've tried to think of some possible way that ball could've been in foul territory when it goes over the bag, but I can't think of any conceivable spin that ball could've taken that would allow it to land before the bag in fair territory, go over the bag in foul territory and miraculously come back in fair territory on the next bounce. Well the ball seemed like it was in foul territory on the first bounce, and then was on the line on the second, and then on the third bounce was a couple inches in. Think of the crazy path the ball took as is. It did not take a straight line no matter how you slice it, especially from a right handed batter. How does a pulled ball become more fair as it does down the line, only to spin foul again after the third bounce? Because the surface it is bouncing on is not smooth, and because the way the ball spins can do crazy things to it. It's a judgment call, and Davidson was right there, as close as anyone, and had just a good of an angle as any camera on the matter. I looked at it frame by frame and that ball looked fair on the first hop. Given the camera angle and how close it was it might have been foul but I'm fairly certain it was fair. Moving on. Regardless, the ball might not take a straight line but it DOES take a straight line between hops. That ball was fair, went over the bag, and landed fair. There's no way it was foul. It's impossible. Yes, spin makes balls do things, but not like that. I'll give anyone $100 bucks if they can recreate that play with the ball being foul over the bag. That's safe money, because physics doesn't work that way. We're not talking about a ball that was pulled foul that has some crazy spin and velocity, we're talking about a ball that bounced 3 time, once after the bag and twice before it, and was fair every time. Just zero way it was foul over the bag, the physics just isn't there. Either way, the ball did become progressively more fair at one point, and then rolled foul again. So, again, this ball, like all balls, does not take a straight path. And of course you can draw a straight line between any two points, that is simple geometry. But we are not working on a 2-d grid. A ball can take a curved path, but the end result looks "straight" when you put it on a 2-d grid. Go take a tennis ball and put some spin on it and toss it on a tile floor if you have. If you mark the two spots it landed on it is a straight line, but you will see it curved while on its path in the air. And if we are going to throw out wagers: I'll give $200, doubling you, to anyone who can find video, or a photograph showing it clearly over the bag. It is impossible to tell.
August 6, 201015 yr I can't think of a way that ball ever reached foul territory. The ball bounced just before reaching the bag and it was on the line. Then it went over the bag and landed even more inside fair territory (about 5 inches). If it had hit some sort of pebble or anything else to bring it back in play, it would've had to be in fair territory considering the first bounce before going over 3rd base was in fair territory. The laws of physics just don't allow for that ball to land in fair territory, spin AROUND the bag out of and then back in foul territory and somehow land back into fair territory beyond the bag. I've never seen a type of spin on the ball that would allow for that ball to have made such a wicked backward spin on a ball. Let's also consider that Gaby is a right handed hitter. How could be possibly put that kind of spin on a ball that usually can only be generated by a left handed bat. I've tried to think of some possible way that ball could've been in foul territory when it goes over the bag, but I can't think of any conceivable spin that ball could've taken that would allow it to land before the bag in fair territory, go over the bag in foul territory and miraculously come back in fair territory on the next bounce. Well the ball seemed like it was in foul territory on the first bounce, and then was on the line on the second, and then on the third bounce was a couple inches in. Think of the crazy path the ball took as is. It did not take a straight line no matter how you slice it, especially from a right handed batter. How does a pulled ball become more fair as it does down the line, only to spin foul again after the third bounce? Because the surface it is bouncing on is not smooth, and because the way the ball spins can do crazy things to it. It's a judgment call, and Davidson was right there, as close as anyone, and had just a good of an angle as any camera on the matter. I looked at it frame by frame and that ball looked fair on the first hop. Given the camera angle and how close it was it might have been foul but I'm fairly certain it was fair. Moving on. Regardless, the ball might not take a straight line but it DOES take a straight line between hops. That ball was fair, went over the bag, and landed fair. There's no way it was foul. It's impossible. Yes, spin makes balls do things, but not like that. I'll give anyone $100 bucks if they can recreate that play with the ball being foul over the bag. That's safe money, because physics doesn't work that way. We're not talking about a ball that was pulled foul that has some crazy spin and velocity, we're talking about a ball that bounced 3 time, once after the bag and twice before it, and was fair every time. Just zero way it was foul over the bag, the physics just isn't there. Either way, the ball did become progressively more fair at one point, and then rolled foul again. So, again, this ball, like all balls, does not take a straight path. And of course you can draw a straight line between any two points, that is simple geometry. But we are not working on a 2-d grid. A ball can take a curved path, but the end result looks "straight" when you put it on a 2-d grid. Go take a tennis ball and put some spin on it and toss it on a tile floor if you have. If you mark the two spots it landed on it is a straight line, but you will see it curved while on its path in the air. And if we are going to throw out wagers: I'll give $200, doubling you, to anyone who can find video, or a photograph showing it clearly over the bag. It is impossible to tell. It's only "impossible" to tell because there's no camera over the bag. It's pretty clear it was fair. And now you're talking about tennis balls and a tile floor and putting spin on it. We're not talking about tile floors and tennis balls. We're talking about a baseball that hopped 3 times. Baseballs don't move like that, not on grounders, that ball just didn't have the force for it and there's not enough distance or speed behind the ball for the seams to catch the air to give it break. You could do that 100 times and put a camera over the bag and you'll never get it foul over the bag but fair in all the places it landed fair. It's not possible. The ball ended up going foul because, as you know, it had spin, so when it hit the ground it shot it in a direction. It didn't shoot it curving in a direction, it just shot it in that direction opposite of the spin and the forming of the dirt in the landing spot. It goes off in a straight line between the hops, it doesn't break.
August 6, 201015 yr the only time the ball can have a spin is directly off the bat on the first bounce. So when Gaby hit that ball, the only way it could have crossed the base foul is if there was only one bounce before it crosses third base. Then it is plausible that the ball hit fair, kicked foul b/c of the spin and came back fair after it passed third base. That's the only scenario in which this is possible. However, we all know the ball bounced fair twice before it crossed third base, and a third time after it crossed. If the first bounce is fair, and the second bounce is fair, there is absolutely no way the ball can then go foul and land fair after it crosses the bag. It is just not physically possible.
August 6, 201015 yr You gotta believe that Davidson looked at the trajectory of the ball, thought it was pointing foul, and called it foul based on that limited observation. This is not a "back & to the left" situation - no conspiracy here - the ball did not magically curve from fair to foul and back to fair in a space of 20 feet. It's just too bad that it probably snuffed out the last hope we had for a miracle finish. And a huge downer for the team - it wouldn't surprise me if they go 5-15 over the next stretch, considering the morale, the schedule, and the travel.
August 6, 201015 yr you know what I just noticed. Ok, so according to Bob Davidson, the ball didn't cross 3rd base. It went around 3rd base and then landed fair. Now if this is the case, after the ball bounced fair past 3rd base, shouldn't the ball then roll more in fair territory as it heads to the outfield. Think about it, the trajectory of the ball goes around 3rd base and then lands fair, the ball should keep heading in that direction as it rolls, so it should bounce more and more in fair territory. However the ball didn't. It crossed 3rd base, landed fair, and then started bouncing in foul territory. The only way this is possible is the ball ABSOLUTELY HAD to cross third base to do this. The ball cannot magically curve around 3rd base, land fair, and then magically change trajectory again and roll foul after that. Just look at the replay. Bob Davidson is an absolute idiot.
August 6, 201015 yr Here it is, and with Rich and Tommy screaming to boot: http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=suhgIgrrRUY Ugh, just reading some comments on youtube for the incident: "The umpire called it foul, so it's foul. " "Foul ball: when it passed the third base bag it was over FOUL territory which makes it a foul ball no matter what it does after it passes third base. This umpire was correct in his call. I am an umpire and I completely agree with this call after watching the slow motion replay." "Those announcers are total homers but the ball was clearly fair." [Note to this quote: OK SO I guess we should have boring announcers that don't get excited or show any emotion while calling a game? Come on!] Tons of other quotes and most say it was foul and not fair though.
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