August 6, 201016 yr If this is the 2011 team the defense will be pretty crappy. That's the grade I would expect for each: C Baker: D- 1B Gaby: C 2B Uggla: D SS Hanley: C- 3B Coghlan: C- LF Logan: D+ CF Cody: B- RF Stanton: B- Pitchers: D
August 6, 201016 yr If this is the 2011 team the defense will be pretty crappy. That's the grade I would expect for each: C Baker: D- 1B Gaby: C 2B Uggla: D SS Hanley: C- 3B Coghlan: C- LF Logan: D+ CF Cody: B- RF Stanton: B- Pitchers: D That's if a "C" is average... What are the chances of Dominguez being on the team... and how would you form that team knowing Cody is probably the odd man out?
August 6, 201016 yr Given how athletic Hanley is and talented he should be above average at SS. He just needs to get himself mentally right and not take plays off when on the field. He can't be making the spectacular play then blow the routine one. I think Stanton will be an above average RF. Uggla is here for his bat and just needs to provide decent d. Maybin is also crazy athletic and should be above average but he seems to lack confidence, instincts and makes a good amount of mental errors. Maybe this changes as he matures and gets comfortable. It takes more than athletic talent to play SS. That's why a lot of guys get converted from SS to CF in the minors, because the athleticism is better served in CF. SS requires exceptional quickness, coordination, and instincts, which don't necessarily go hand in hand with the guys who are the most athletic. Back in his early days, there was speculation that he could move to CF. He has improved a lot since then, but he'll have to hit his way to the gold glove. I would love to see the Marlins roll the dice and move Hanely to CF. If that worked out, it would open up the possibility of a lot of good things.
August 6, 201016 yr If this is the 2011 team the defense will be pretty crappy. That's the grade I would expect for each: C Baker: D- 1B Gaby: C 2B Uggla: D SS Hanley: C- 3B Coghlan: C- LF Logan: D+ CF Cody: B- RF Stanton: B- Pitchers: D That's if a "C" is average... That's assuming a "C" is mediocre.
August 6, 201016 yr If this is the 2011 team the defense will be pretty crappy. That's the grade I would expect for each: C Baker: D- 1B Gaby: C 2B Uggla: D SS Hanley: C- 3B Coghlan: C- LF Logan: D+ CF Cody: B- RF Stanton: B- Pitchers: D That's if a "C" is average... That's assuming a "C" is mediocre. So yes.
August 6, 201016 yr Who takes over at SS then? Maybe the kid at AA. Maybe Donnie "bleepin" Murphy. Maybe we find a slick fielding shortstop prospect somewhere and trade for him. There is no CF on the horizon for the Marlins except for Maybin and he has failed in two chances so far and Maybin is nothing special with the glove.
August 7, 201016 yr Who takes over at SS then? Maybe the kid at AA. Maybe Donnie "bleepin" Murphy. Maybe we find a slick fielding shortstop prospect somewhere and trade for him. There is no CF on the horizon for the Marlins except for Maybin and he has failed in two chances so far and Maybin is nothing special with the glove. Ah, I forgot about Osvaldo. But I really doubt at 22 years old, he would be major league ready. Also he is only 12/20 in SB attempts which is a lot worse than I would have expected. I wouldn't mind having Donnie "bleepin" Murphy starting... he could possibly break a MLB record in walkoff hits in a season :lol Don't give up faith in Maybin just yet... he is still young and tearing up AAA pitching (per usual). I just hope he doesnt turn out to be a career AAAA player... And if we didn't trade Cody Ross... maybe the club has plans for him to be around next year? You never know...
August 7, 201016 yr Who takes over at SS then? Maybe the kid at AA. Maybe Donnie "bleepin" Murphy. Maybe we find a slick fielding shortstop prospect somewhere and trade for him. There is no CF on the horizon for the Marlins except for Maybin and he has failed in two chances so far and Maybin is nothing special with the glove. maybin would be fine out there, he's regarded as a good outfielder and he can run. Let's wait until he's had a season up here. hanley isn't going to center field.
August 7, 201016 yr The last player I want in center is hanley. You think he is lazy at ss? Imagine him having to run down balls that pass him in the gaps. No thanks lol I don't think Hanley is lazy at SS. But he is not quick.
August 7, 201016 yr That "lazy" Ramirez just made an outfield assist...as a shortstop. It's amazing how such a fantastic play had been complete ignored due to all of the Davidson controversy. Can you imagine what would have happened if Jeter had made that play? It was more impressive than that catch a few years back where Jeter dove into the stands seemingly for the theatrics and not real necessity.
August 7, 201016 yr That "lazy" Ramirez just made an outfield assist...as a shortstop. It's amazing how such a fantastic play had been complete ignored due to all of the Davidson controversy. Can you imagine what would have happened if Jeter had made that play? It was more impressive than that catch a few years back where Jeter dove into the stands seemingly for the theatrics and not real necessity. That's what's always killed me about that play. I like Jeter, I think he's a HOF class act and all that noise, but I still have no idea why he flung himself into the stands when he made the play like 10 feet earlier.
August 7, 201016 yr Who takes over at SS then? Maybe the kid at AA. Maybe Donnie "bleepin" Murphy. Maybe we find a slick fielding shortstop prospect somewhere and trade for him. There is no CF on the horizon for the Marlins except for Maybin and he has failed in two chances so far and Maybin is nothing special with the glove. Maybin has failed so far, and I'm pretty skeptical of his potential to actually become useful, but the book on any prospect is never written after less than 500 AB's before the age of 23. He deserves some legitimate time to develop at the major league level( not necessarily this year though). The problem we've had the last two years is that the team really hasn't been good enough to deal with subpar production from CF while a young player works out his kinks. Needing instant production is simply not a way to develop young talent in this league, and for every guy who lights it up his rookie year, there is another who took a while to adjust to the major leagues before he reached his full potential. We've been an oxymoron the last couple years of having to rely on young talent development, yet not being able to give most of the young players a real chance to develop over a period of time.
August 7, 201016 yr The last player I want in center is hanley. You think he is lazy at ss? Imagine him having to run down balls that pass him in the gaps. No thanks lol If Hanley were in CF the player he would most resemble would be BJ Upton, who only makes plays when he wants too.
August 7, 201016 yr The last player I want in center is hanley. You think he is lazy at ss? Imagine him having to run down balls that pass him in the gaps. No thanks lol If Hanley were in CF the player he would most resemble would be BJ Upton, who only makes plays when he wants too. Fans in TB would care less if they hadn't all started to realize that he is a bad hitter, and that his bad years weren't just bad years. It's funny though, here near TB most fans hate him, but a few are blindly and obsessively loyal to him. And in baseball, even the bad players do something good every once in a while, and every time something good happens (like his recent hot streak) they never let you hear the end of it and act like they few moments of production make him one of the best players in the league.
August 7, 201016 yr The Marlins do not have a single, solid plus glove on the roster. If you take away RF, and roster doesn't include Maybin and Dominguez, sure. 2010 - Gaby Sanchez, 0.0 UZR 2010 - Dan Uggla -4.7 UZR 2009 - Dan Uggla -9.6 UZR 2008 - Dan Uggla 0.8 UZR 2010 - Hanley Ramirez -15.4 UZR (seriously, WTF) 2009 - Hanley Ramirez -0.1 UZR 2008 - Hanley Ramirez 0.9 UZR 2010 - Cameron Maybin 0.2 UZR 2010 - Cody Ross -0.3 UZR 2009 - Cameron Maybin 13.5 UZR (sample size, still telling) 2009 - Cody Ross -7.8 UZR 2010 - Mike Stanton 17.4 UZR (sample size, yet still awesome) 2010 - Cody Ross 13.6 UZR 2009 - Cody Ross -7.4 UZR --- Like I said before, I suspect Dominguez, Maybin, and Stanton all rate out above average sooner rather than later; Hanley, Gaby, Coghlan, and Morrison all rate out around average; and Uggla remains this -6 type of player. That's a solid defense team long term as long as the team finds suitable catchers, and coaches the pitchers to hold a runner for the love of god. This isn't a problem or major concern. The hitting potential of all of these players is vast, and you take whatever defense you can get out of them. These guys are not: Jorge Cantu - 11.7 Skip Schumaker -12.8 Casey McGhee -11.6 Johnny Gomes -21.6 Andre Ethier - 35.8 (amazing) Those guys are issues. Those guys kill you despite being solid, or in Ethiers case, amazing hitters. Hanley is a blip this year, that would be a problem if he continues along that path, but he should be fine. Cantu and Coghlan were over -15 between them. Team defense just went up huge. Coghlan and Morrison are not going to be this bad. It would be great if the team could find guys who can hit and field, but if they can find guys that can hit and hold their own (which is everyone above), pretty damn good. Baseball is not a quest for perfection. A lot of you guys forget how hard it is to field a .500 ball club, let alone a playoff competitive team. We're fine. They are going to get better big time. Pitching, pitching, and more pitching. Defense isn't going to stop the shellings the non-JJ pitchers give up every other start.
August 7, 201016 yr There has to come a time when this FO decides to put their priorities where they keep telling us they are. Pitching, defense, and speed. Putting in bats when there are definetly better defensive players for that position hasn't worked. And it will continue not to work. Others can pore over all the defensive stats until they find some that seem to justify what they want to think all they want. The proof, and the bottom line, is right there on the field. But kind of a tricky balancing point there. You don't want to give up on offense either. You do have to score runs to win games. But you can't keep giving other teams more than 3 outs per inning. Pitchers have to feel confident plays are going to be made behind them. It does make them better pitchers. Both statistically and personally. Confidence breeds production. It could very well happen that if 2 or three of the guys currently here and/or close to being here show they aren't a liability with their bats, the FO will take some of these other bats and trade them away for help in other areas. There are 2 or 3 of those guys that may very possibly bring us some good returns. The fan base may not like it initially, but the final product on the field should sway them.
August 7, 201016 yr There has to come a time when this FO decides to put their priorities where they keep telling us they are. Pitching, defense, and speed. Putting in bats when there are definetly better defensive players for that position hasn't worked. And it will continue not to work. Others can pore over all the defensive stats until they find some that seem to justify what they want to think all they want. The proof, and the bottom line, is right there on the field. But kind of a tricky balancing point there. You don't want to give up on offense either. You do have to score runs to win games. But you can't keep giving other teams more than 3 outs per inning. Pitchers have to feel confident plays are going to be made behind them. It does make them better pitchers. Both statistically and personally. Confidence breeds production. It could very well happen that if 2 or three of the guys currently here and/or close to being here show they aren't a liability with their bats, the FO will take some of these other bats and trade them away for help in other areas. There are 2 or 3 of those guys that may very possibly bring us some good returns. The fan base may not like it initially, but the final product on the field should sway them. exactly
August 7, 201016 yr The proof and the bottom line is, everyone always remembers the horrible defensive plays and never remembers the routine plays which is what really matters defensively. You guys want to talk about hogwash of having the pitchers have confidence in their defense. The Marlins had NO chance of tracking down any of those rockets Nolasco was giving up. You are looking at this on a singular outcome with Hanley air mailing one two nights ago, rather than the totality of the circumstances, which is a terrible thing to do in baseball and why as a whole, your argument fails (as usual). No one is saying they are a great defensive team, but getting rid of the two biggest problems with Cantu and a Coghlan position switch, is bringing the team closer to adequate. For a third time now, the Marlins will likely have three above average defenders (Stanton, Maybin, Dominguez) by the new stadium, Hanley should become above average one of these days and if not historically he has been a neutral SS, Coghlan and Morrison's scouting reports both say they should be solid, Gaby has been very solid this year and there is no reason to believe this decreases, and Uggla is just Uggla. You take the slugging. This is not hyping them. This is not exaggerating them. This is simply stating 3 of the 8 fielders should be really good, another 3 around average, and say 2 a little below average. That's NOT BAD as is, and combined with their hitting potential and relatively low combined salaries, REALLY GOOD. It's going to be very very hard to replace a 3+ WAR Uggla with a defensive minded 2B who can hit enough to make up the difference. Very, very, hard. It's also going to be very very hard to replace club controlled Morrison, Sanchez, Coghlan, and Dominguez with a player with their hitting ability/potential, and is above average defensively. This is just not feaseable. This isn't playstation or your fantasy baseball league where you can just trade Gaby Sanchez for a guy who can pick and hit a little. You guys want perfection. The Marlins are getting good production from the hitters, and there is vast potential for significant improvement in 1-2 years as they all settle into big league roles and get over soph slumps and pie incidents. Baseball is not about perfection, baseball is about production. I'll take a team of 8 Adam Dunns and win the world series every year as I walk and homer in 1,200 runs. The team should upgrade anytime they feel they can do it. It should be anytime they can find a better player available for any position, who plays good defense or not. The bottom line is what matters. You take production in any form you can get it. If it's defense, great. It doesn't matter what the production is which is why these threads are crazy. Try and replace a 3 WAR Uggla. Good luck. And how to fix this team, is get better pitchers. Simple as that. Thankfully, the front office understands this and won't touch the young lineup and acquire a bunch of Nick Puntos.
August 8, 201016 yr There has to come a time when this FO decides to put their priorities where they keep telling us they are. Pitching, defense, and speed. Putting in bats when there are definetly better defensive players for that position hasn't worked. And it will continue not to work. Others can pore over all the defensive stats until they find some that seem to justify what they want to think all they want. The proof, and the bottom line, is right there on the field. But kind of a tricky balancing point there. You don't want to give up on offense either. You do have to score runs to win games. But you can't keep giving other teams more than 3 outs per inning. Pitchers have to feel confident plays are going to be made behind them. It does make them better pitchers. Both statistically and personally. Confidence breeds production. It could very well happen that if 2 or three of the guys currently here and/or close to being here show they aren't a liability with their bats, the FO will take some of these other bats and trade them away for help in other areas. There are 2 or 3 of those guys that may very possibly bring us some good returns. The fan base may not like it initially, but the final product on the field should sway them. Gaby Sanchez is only 1 person, I don't know why you keep cryptically referring to him as "2 or 3 of those guys". This has been a funny new thing for you though. You can just come out and say you are talking about Gaby, everyone knows it.
August 8, 201016 yr The proof and the bottom line is, everyone always remembers the horrible defensive plays and never remembers the routine plays which is what really matters defensively. You guys want to talk about hogwash of having the pitchers have confidence in their defense. The Marlins had NO chance of tracking down any of those rockets Nolasco was giving up. You are looking at this on a singular outcome with Hanley air mailing one two nights ago, rather than the totality of the circumstances, which is a terrible thing to do in baseball and why as a whole, your argument fails (as usual). No one is saying they are a great defensive team, but getting rid of the two biggest problems with Cantu and a Coghlan position switch, is bringing the team closer to adequate. For a third time now, the Marlins will likely have three above average defenders (Stanton, Maybin, Dominguez) by the new stadium, Hanley should become above average one of these days and if not historically he has been a neutral SS, Coghlan and Morrison's scouting reports both say they should be solid, Gaby has been very solid this year and there is no reason to believe this decreases, and Uggla is just Uggla. You take the slugging. This is not hyping them. This is not exaggerating them. This is simply stating 3 of the 8 fielders should be really good, another 3 around average, and say 2 a little below average. That's NOT BAD as is, and combined with their hitting potential and relatively low combined salaries, REALLY GOOD. It's going to be very very hard to replace a 3+ WAR Uggla with a defensive minded 2B who can hit enough to make up the difference. Very, very, hard. It's also going to be very very hard to replace club controlled Morrison, Sanchez, Coghlan, and Dominguez with a player with their hitting ability/potential, and is above average defensively. This is just not feaseable. This isn't playstation or your fantasy baseball league where you can just trade Gaby Sanchez for a guy who can pick and hit a little. You guys want perfection. The Marlins are getting good production from the hitters, and there is vast potential for significant improvement in 1-2 years as they all settle into big league roles and get over soph slumps and pie incidents. Baseball is not about perfection, baseball is about production. I'll take a team of 8 Adam Dunns and win the world series every year as I walk and homer in 1,200 runs. The team should upgrade anytime they feel they can do it. It should be anytime they can find a better player available for any position, who plays good defense or not. The bottom line is what matters. You take production in any form you can get it. If it's defense, great. It doesn't matter what the production is which is why these threads are crazy. Try and replace a 3 WAR Uggla. Good luck. And how to fix this team, is get better pitchers. Simple as that. Thankfully, the front office understands this and won't touch the young lineup and acquire a bunch of Nick Puntos. You are right to the extent that the Marlins are handcuffed w/ what they have. But w/ that said, I think this team has enough hitting to weather a slick fielding Bonafacio, or similar fielding player, at 3B. Frankly, I think this team was better when he was at 3B last year. I don't understand why Uggla is an immovable object at 2B. In many ways this is the huge issue. Not in Uggla personally but in that the team has WAY TOO many players out of position or defensive players who are below average. I think playing 3B would hide Uggla's biggest flaw, his range. You put Coghlan at 2B and I think you are immediately better w/ 5/6 of your IF at their natural position. You play Maybin, and trust me this is a certainty, in CF w/ Stanton in RF. Suddenly 2/3 of your OF is in their natural position and now you have a + CF who can help w/ the downside of what LF will offer. You will need to eat Morrison in LF, which is obviously not what you want, but this exactly were your argument has the most merit: the teams financial and positional limitations.
August 8, 201016 yr There has to come a time when this FO decides to put their priorities where they keep telling us they are. Pitching, defense, and speed. Putting in bats when there are definetly better defensive players for that position hasn't worked. And it will continue not to work. Others can pore over all the defensive stats until they find some that seem to justify what they want to think all they want. The proof, and the bottom line, is right there on the field. But kind of a tricky balancing point there. You don't want to give up on offense either. You do have to score runs to win games. But you can't keep giving other teams more than 3 outs per inning. Pitchers have to feel confident plays are going to be made behind them. It does make them better pitchers. Both statistically and personally. Confidence breeds production. It could very well happen that if 2 or three of the guys currently here and/or close to being here show they aren't a liability with their bats, the FO will take some of these other bats and trade them away for help in other areas. There are 2 or 3 of those guys that may very possibly bring us some good returns. The fan base may not like it initially, but the final product on the field should sway them. Gaby Sanchez is only 1 person, I don't know why you keep cryptically referring to him as "2 or 3 of those guys". This has been a funny new thing for you though. You can just come out and say you are talking about Gaby, everyone knows it. In his defense (pun intended), he also hates John, he of Super Saturdays.
August 8, 201016 yr The proof and the bottom line is, everyone always remembers the horrible defensive plays and never remembers the routine plays which is what really matters defensively. You guys want to talk about hogwash of having the pitchers have confidence in their defense. The Marlins had NO chance of tracking down any of those rockets Nolasco was giving up. You are looking at this on a singular outcome with Hanley air mailing one two nights ago, rather than the totality of the circumstances, which is a terrible thing to do in baseball and why as a whole, your argument fails (as usual). No one is saying they are a great defensive team, but getting rid of the two biggest problems with Cantu and a Coghlan position switch, is bringing the team closer to adequate. For a third time now, the Marlins will likely have three above average defenders (Stanton, Maybin, Dominguez) by the new stadium, Hanley should become above average one of these days and if not historically he has been a neutral SS, Coghlan and Morrison's scouting reports both say they should be solid, Gaby has been very solid this year and there is no reason to believe this decreases, and Uggla is just Uggla. You take the slugging. This is not hyping them. This is not exaggerating them. This is simply stating 3 of the 8 fielders should be really good, another 3 around average, and say 2 a little below average. That's NOT BAD as is, and combined with their hitting potential and relatively low combined salaries, REALLY GOOD. It's going to be very very hard to replace a 3+ WAR Uggla with a defensive minded 2B who can hit enough to make up the difference. Very, very, hard. It's also going to be very very hard to replace club controlled Morrison, Sanchez, Coghlan, and Dominguez with a player with their hitting ability/potential, and is above average defensively. This is just not feaseable. This isn't playstation or your fantasy baseball league where you can just trade Gaby Sanchez for a guy who can pick and hit a little. You guys want perfection. The Marlins are getting good production from the hitters, and there is vast potential for significant improvement in 1-2 years as they all settle into big league roles and get over soph slumps and pie incidents. Baseball is not about perfection, baseball is about production. I'll take a team of 8 Adam Dunns and win the world series every year as I walk and homer in 1,200 runs. The team should upgrade anytime they feel they can do it. It should be anytime they can find a better player available for any position, who plays good defense or not. The bottom line is what matters. You take production in any form you can get it. If it's defense, great. It doesn't matter what the production is which is why these threads are crazy. Try and replace a 3 WAR Uggla. Good luck. And how to fix this team, is get better pitchers. Simple as that. Thankfully, the front office understands this and won't touch the young lineup and acquire a bunch of Nick Puntos. I can't see too much in this post that is true, but especially the bolded part. We are looking at our defensive ranking. Last place. Again. And where we are in the standings. No play offs. Again. And talk about looking at one thing? Are all our guys giving up homeruns at an unbelievable rate that puts us in last place or near last place in that category? I don't think so. Saying dumping Cantu and moving a LFer to play 3B, a position he hasn't played in quite a while, and then taking a 1B (that should be playing 1B) and moving him to LF to learn that position is going to improve this defense much is.....Well, it's not going to do much. Not even going to bring us up to middle of the pack defensively. Not to mention we are most likely going to lose arguably our best OFer next season. Apparently hopes are that a magic wand will be waved and some of these guys (here and in the minors) next year will all of a sudden become better defensive players so we can spend some $$$ and get some more pitching in here. Let's hope it's true. And that they hide that magic wand so other teams don't find it. That would be counterproductive. We aren't going to be able to afford enough pitchers with ERAs and WHIPs low enough to counterbalance sloppy defense. Our payroll will be under $60 mil next season. Uggla, Hanley, JJ, and Ricky will eat up a bunch of that. The kind of pitchers that we would need to overcome sloppy defense don't come that cheap. It's as simple as that. People can look at all the stat sheets they want. The final product is ight there in front of them. Last place defensively and out of the play offs. It's a recurring problem that won't fix itself.
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