The Future of the Marlins' Defense

[Entendu]

Looking at how this team's position players lay out in the depth chart (located here,) what could we realistically expect of this team's defense in the future? (note, Coghlan isn't included there and Cody probably won't be with the Marlins come 2012)

 

It's no secret that this team relies greatly on its own organizational depth, which at times lends itself to forcing players to play positions other than their natural one in order to be promoted. We currently have 2 young players (LoMo and Coghlan) blocked from their natural position by players who are unable to adequately field another spot. Moving Gaby Sanchez or Dan Uggla anywhere forces Logan Morrison, a great glove at 1B, and Chris Coglan, an apparantly decent (?) fielder at 2B to play positions in which their defense proves to be a liability to the ballclub.

 

Now, I'm sure Coghlan will be a better defender at 3B than he was at LF, but will it be enough for this team? Uggla and Hanley are spectacular at times, but aren't anywhere close to being dependable on the field and our projected future CF, Cameron Maybin will replace perhaps our best fielder with an average-to-below-average one.

 

At this point, I think it's safe to say that our middle infield isn't going to get better defensively - our outfield and corner spots might. What does this team do? Do we sacrifice bats in order to salvage games for our pitchers? At what point do we begin to sacrifice our hitting for our defense?

 

 

First topic on here, by the way. I don't know a thing about Sabermetrics, so if anyone has beef with anything I said, don't rage :$

[MrMarlinPride]

Well Hanley is a proven above average SS and he's gotten better over the years.

Coghlan could be pretty average to slighty above or below average at 3rd pending on how well he can field and react to balls at the hot corner.

Since when is Maybin a below average outfielder?

He's be above average in the minors throughout his career and besides a misjudgement or two he's been above average in his little service time in the MLB.

Stanton seems to be an above average outfielder. Gaby is about average at 1B, Lo Month seems to be about average in LF and Uggla is pretty average at 2nd.

We have a great glove as a future 3rd Baseman in Matt Dominguez but his offense has yet to pick up to his defensive abilities.

 

We shouldn't be the greatest MLB team in the future but we shouldn't be terrible.

[I Love Me Some Fish]

Calling Uggla average is generous imo.

[afer13]

Calling Uggla average is generous imo.

 

 

Calling Hanley above average is equally generous.

[Sirspud]

Calling Uggla average is generous imo.

 

 

Calling Hanley above average is equally generous.

 

Yeah, the bar for his position is set very high and there is no way he measures up as above average.

[OnTopOfPhils]

this is the problem of averages. Unless you're truly terrible, people will label you as "average" or if feeling honest, "slightly below average." If one is truly average,they will be labeled above average.

[Sirspud]

this is the problem of averages. Unless you're truly terrible, people will label you as "average" or if feeling honest, "slightly below average." If one is truly average,they will be labeled above average.

 

 

At SS, saying a player is even an average defender means that they are usually making plays that 8 other guys on the field couldn't make. But the best at that position can make those plays much more regularly than others.

[Erick]

Hanley sucked his first 2 years, has been pretty much average the last 2 years, and now this year he's sucked again, defensively.

He's not above average; if anything, he's below average.

 

Uggla's below average defensively, as well.

 

Coghlan, who knows?

 

Gaby's an average defensive 1B.

 

Basically, the only great thing about our defense is Mike Stanton in RF; Matt Dominguez will probably be great at 3B, as well.

[mystikol87]

Good thread. Hanley should be about average for the next couple of years, while Uggla is below average and should fade. If Maybin sticks he'll be above-average, and Stanton looks like a strong defender. Hopefully they can make up for any LoMo shortcomings in LF. Gaby is slightly above average this year last I checked but I'd expect him closer to league average or slightly below over a larger sample. I have no idea how Cogs will be at 3rd. Behind the plate is eh. I expect us to struggle defensively again next year, especially as Cogs and LoMo get acclimated to new(er) positions.

[jsprt05]

I love Mike Stanton, but I've seen him juggle/mishandle a few too many balls hit his way this season.

 

I'm sure he will end up as a solid RF'er, but if he's the greatest player we have on defense, we're screwed.

[Dr Beinfest]

Hanley isnt bad at defense, but with a position where the bar is set so high, it's not fair to call him 'average' either. I'd say he's a below average defender, but that doesnt make him bad.

 

Uggla is below average. Unfortunately, those 2 are your two most important infielding positions defensively. Ive gotta say though, both of them have picked up their play in the past few seasons.

[Admin]

Didn't we just have another thread on this like two days ago?

[dom2613]

Given how athletic Hanley is and talented he should be above average at SS. He just needs to get himself mentally right and not take plays off when on the field. He can't be making the spectacular play then blow the routine one.

 

I think Stanton will be an above average RF. Uggla is here for his bat and just needs to provide decent d. Maybin is also crazy athletic and should be above average but he seems to lack confidence, instincts and makes a good amount of mental errors. Maybe this changes as he matures and gets comfortable.

[Sirspud]

Given how athletic Hanley is and talented he should be above average at SS. He just needs to get himself mentally right and not take plays off when on the field. He can't be making the spectacular play then blow the routine one.

 

I think Stanton will be an above average RF. Uggla is here for his bat and just needs to provide decent d. Maybin is also crazy athletic and should be above average but he seems to lack confidence, instincts and makes a good amount of mental errors. Maybe this changes as he matures and gets comfortable.

 

 

It takes more than athletic talent to play SS. That's why a lot of guys get converted from SS to CF in the minors, because the athleticism is better served in CF. SS requires exceptional quickness, coordination, and instincts, which don't necessarily go hand in hand with the guys who are the most athletic.

 

Back in his early days, there was speculation that he could move to CF. He has improved a lot since then, but he'll have to hit his way to the gold glove.

[Erick]

It's been 5 years; he has shown to be more below average than above average. Sooner or later, it just gets to the point where you just say he's not that good, defensively. Of course, it really doesn't matter if he continues producing offensively as he has over the years (it'd be nice if he remembered how to hit and hit for power again, btw...)

[Imperial Lex]

Given how athletic Hanley is and talented he should be above average at SS. He just needs to get himself mentally right and not take plays off when on the field. He can't be making the spectacular play then blow the routine one.

 

I think Stanton will be an above average RF. Uggla is here for his bat and just needs to provide decent d. Maybin is also crazy athletic and should be above average but he seems to lack confidence, instincts and makes a good amount of mental errors. Maybe this changes as he matures and gets comfortable.

 

 

exactly!! I think hanley has above average skill, infact I think he has just about every skill there is. But he doesn't always put to work inbetween those foul lines. IMO he could be tarnishing he's legacy, because I think he is good enough to be when it's all said and done one of the best SS's of all time.

 

And uggla might be a little below average but 2B don't get that many chances to make a great play. Being that they are so close to first. But I think he's offense coming from a 2B more then makes up for it.

[fanofthefish]

The future of the Marlins defense is in a word "scary". Unless major improvements are made, developed or purchased the Marlins will be among the worst fielding teams in the NL, for the foreseable future.

If you look position by position there isn't a lot to be excited about. Catching wise the team isn't too bad, but unless Skipworth develops as he was originally projected the combo of Paulino/Baker isn't winning gold gloves. I think Gaby will develop into a solid first baseman, he's already made some plays this year that have surprised me, again no gold glove but he doesn't scare me. If Uggla reamains in the teams plans he's average at best at 2b, he makes plays you don't expect him to every now and then but has limited range. Hanley has shown he's capable of being great, just look at last year, but he also has the ability to turn it off at a moments notice too. Big props for running that one down in left last night though. Third base is a crap shoot, if you think Coghlan is the answer there, long range he appears best suited for 2b, I've seen Dominguez play at Jupiter and Jax, he'll definetly improve the defense there. As for the outfield, left will always be a problem if you have someone out of position there, Morrison or Coghlan it won't matter. Maybin is a work in progress, they would probably still be playing Halladays perfect game if he hadn't missed that ball in center, he appears to have the ability to improve. Stanton is also a work in progress, but as they mention in the broadcasts he won't make the same mistake twice, plus he has a cannon out there. It is often said teams win with pitching and defense for the Marlins sake I hope the pitching is able to overcome the defense.

[dom2613]

Given how athletic Hanley is and talented he should be above average at SS. He just needs to get himself mentally right and not take plays off when on the field. He can't be making the spectacular play then blow the routine one.

 

I think Stanton will be an above average RF. Uggla is here for his bat and just needs to provide decent d. Maybin is also crazy athletic and should be above average but he seems to lack confidence, instincts and makes a good amount of mental errors. Maybe this changes as he matures and gets comfortable.

 

 

It takes more than athletic talent to play SS. That's why a lot of guys get converted from SS to CF in the minors, because the athleticism is better served in CF. SS requires exceptional quickness, coordination, and instincts, which don't necessarily go hand in hand with the guys who are the most athletic.

 

Back in his early days, there was speculation that he could move to CF. He has improved a lot since then, but he'll have to hit his way to the gold glove.

 

He has the quickness, coordination and instincts though. Look at that play he made last night when he went into left field thats pretty good instincts. Sure maybe he isn't as quick as he was when he first came up but he's quick enough. I'm not saying he can be Ozzie Smith but he can be at least slightly above average.

[floridafly]

According to scouts, Matty D had a major league ready glove right out of high school.

 

So forget about Coghlan at 3rd (unless Dominguez struggles horribly at the plate) because I bet Matt will be ready for 2012. It makes no sense to move Coghlan to 3rd just for 2011 and then stick him back in the OF as soon as Matt is ready.

 

But a huge factor is whether or not Uggla is going to be signed long term.

[dim]

Dominguez's bat is still light years away from major league ready though.

[MarlinsLou]

Drowning in a sea of idiots. I don't remember it ever being this bad.

 

First of all, you take the overall production of a player into account. If they hit like crazy for their position, see Hanley and Uggla, it doesn't matter I'd they are below average defensively and they are incredibly beneficial players.

 

Second, this team is hellacious defensively because of three main things - Cantu at 3B, Coghlan in LF, and the combo of pitchers and catchers being horrible at holding base runners and throwing them out. Two of these problems have instantly been fixed within the last week. That is HUGE. Cantu was thee worst 3B in baseball. Coghlan was close to thee worst LF in baseball. Getting mere below average options at these positions are going to save 10-15 runs a year which is insane.

 

Maybin, Stanton, and Dominguez all profile as above average players. Gaby, Morrison, Hanley, and Coghlan all profile to be average or better once settled. Uggla is going to be slightly below, but he rakes so who cares. He's awesome. The battery? There is no hope right now, but there are no problems moving forward here. This is not as bad as people want to make it. Especially when you add in all these guys could easily being plus hitters.

 

How about we worry about something that matters, like finding 4 consistent starters behind Johnson instead of glimpses of talent from everyone else. How about finding three more relievers?

 

Pitching, pitching, and more pitching, are the top 3 needs of this team and organization.

[Entendu]

It's been 5 years; he has shown to be more below average than above average. Sooner or later, it just gets to the point where you just say he's not that good, defensively. Of course, it really doesn't matter if he continues producing offensively as he has over the years (it'd be nice if he remembered how to hit and hit for power again, btw...)

 

 

See, that's what I think. You get to a point in your career where your defense isn't going to improve much. Bad defensive seasons aren't uncommon, hell they may even be expected in some cases, when you're young - but Hanley and Uggla aren't that young anymore and any progress they're going to make won't change much.

[Entendu]

Drowning in a sea of idiots. I don't remember it ever being this bad.

 

First of all, you take the overall production of a player into account. If they hit like crazy for their position, see Hanley and Uggla, it doesn't matter I'd they are below average defensively and they are incredibly beneficial players.

 

Second, this team is hellacious defensively because of three main things - Cantu at 3B, Coghlan in LF, and the combo of pitchers and catchers being horrible at holding base runners and throwing them out. Two of these problems have instantly been fixed within the last week. That is HUGE. Cantu was thee worst 3B in baseball. Coghlan was close to thee worst LF in baseball. Getting mere below average options at these positions are going to save 10-15 runs a year which is insane.

 

Maybin, Stanton, and Dominguez all profile as above average players. Gaby, Morrison, Hanley, and Coghlan all profile to be average or better once settled. Uggla is going to be slightly below, but he rakes so who cares. He's awesome. The battery? There is no hope right now, but there are no problems moving forward here. This is not as bad as people want to make it. Especially when you add in all these guys could easily being plus hitters.

 

How about we worry about something that matters, like finding 4 consistent starters behind Johnson instead of glimpses of talent from everyone else. How about finding three more relievers?

 

Pitching, pitching, and more pitching, are the top 3 needs of this team and organization.

 

 

Those problems aren't exactly fixed. Morrison is replacing Coghlan, and when Coghlan comes up he'll be the one playing 3B. He'll be better than Cantu, but that's about it.

 

Part of the problem with the pitching is the defense behind them. Our pitchers shouldn't have to get more outs per inning than the rest of the league. It makes our bad pitchers look worse than they actually are.

[Rabbethan]

It's been 5 years; he has shown to be more below average than above average. Sooner or later, it just gets to the point where you just say he's not that good, defensively. Of course, it really doesn't matter if he continues producing offensively as he has over the years (it'd be nice if he remembered how to hit and hit for power again, btw...)

 

Well, yes and no. Over the last 3 years he has shown to be more average to above average to below average. Most players have the worst defense at the beginning and ends of their career, and given the fact that we didn't even have infield drills in 2007 I'm willing to excuse that. He's been average the last few years and was even around average his rookie season.

 

 

He's average.

[rgkeller]

Excellent thread.

 

Many of the comments reflect the "halo effect" that fans give to their favorite teams.

 

The Marlins do not have a single, solid plus glove on the roster.

 

There are few, if any, centerfielders in mlb that are worse than Maybin has demonstrated.

 

Watching most Marlins games, one seldom sees outstanding defensive plays, particularly in the infield.

 

The Phillies, on the other hand, seemingly make one or two a game.

 

The front office needs to earn their money by trades and free agents and some DFAs and some shuffling to bring the Marlins some outstanding gloves. Sitting on the status quo while waiting for Dominguez won't get it done.

 

NO team with Baker/Paulino, Hanley, Uggla and Maybin up the middle will excel defensively.They just don't have the requisite skills.