Good post.. I'll also add on that this year he is hitting .305 w/runners on, .392 w/RISP and .308 w/RISP and 2 outs. While that hasnt translated to PH success this year, its something that usually will.

I'd like him to stay on as an instructor or coach.

I just don't understand why the FO was so hasty in awarding Helms a contract for next season? Were they afraid he was going to play himself out of our price range, because somehow I doubt that.

 

I agree with Erick, the team has more pressing needs than keeping Helms when they have cheaper and more viable options in house and a shitshow bullpen.

I just don't understand why the FO was so hasty in awarding Helms a contract for next season? Were they afraid he was going to play himself out of our price range, because somehow I doubt that.

 

 

The FO just wanted to make sure he stayed here to provide the type of "leadership" he provided during the Nationals brawl game. I bet without Wes on the team whining about stolen bases there wouldn't have being a fight.

They signed him because he's a "veteran leader."

If they were so interested in pinch-hitters, they would've signed Ross Gload last year, as well.

 

Bottom line is that it's an unnecessary contract, at this point. That's $1 million that can be spent on a bullpen piece for next year instead.

 

 

Ross Gload got a multi-year contract worth $1.3 millon a year. Why would the Marlins commit that to him, when they had Wes Helms already signed for cheaper who was putting up the same numbers?

They signed him because he's a "veteran leader."

If they were so interested in pinch-hitters, they would've signed Ross Gload last year, as well.

 

Bottom line is that it's an unnecessary contract, at this point. That's $1 million that can be spent on a bullpen piece for next year instead.

 

 

Ross Gload got a multi-year contract worth $1.3 millon a year. Why would the Marlins commit that to him, when they had Wes Helms already signed for cheaper who was putting up the same numbers?

 

 

Because Gload was left handed, a much better first baseman and could play the outfield too.

Wes Helms got old real fast.

 

And he ain't gonna be any younger next year.

As a person I like Uncle Wes, as an everyday player.....uh not so much. There is a place in the game for someone like Helms, he has stepped forward as a leader on this team, but his value to the team doesn't lie in his playing abilities. I'm in the boat that Tracy could provide for us the same production as Helms and I think he could step into the veteran leader if given the chance.

Because Gload was left handed, a much better first baseman and could play the outfield too.

 

 

I'll give you the obvious one in that he's left handed.

 

But as far as Gload being a "much better 1B," are you referring to defense? Gload has a career .995 1B fielding %, compared to Helms' .991 1B career fielding %. If both were full time starters at 1B, Helms would commit approximately 6 more errors than Gload each season. Is that enough to justify calling Gload a "much better 1B?" If you still think so, factor in that neither one of them would have started full-time at 1B for the Marlins. In '09, Ross Gload played the equivalent of 1/4 of a season at 1B in terms of fielding "chances." So, for comparison, you give Helms the same number of chances, and in the capacity that the Marlins would have used them at 1B, Helms would have commited 2 more errors than Gload.

 

If you're also going to give Gload the advantage of playing in the outfield, then don't forget the part about Helms being capable of playing the IF.

 

Now, let me clarify one thing. This whole Helms/Gload thing started when Erick said we should have kept Gload over Helms, after discussing their pinch-hitting abilities. When I asked why they would have given Gload the contract he was seeking, I was still referring to him replacing Helms in a pinch-hitting capacity, while Helms was still under contract. Now, if you're stating that they should have kept Gload because he's "left-handed, a much better first baseman, and could play the outfield, too" while keeping Helms on the team also, then I'm right there with you. But I don't feel those three reasons you gave would have justified giving him the 2 year/1.3 mil per year salary he was seeking, if you're using him to replace Helms, especially while Helms was still under contract for another year.

As a person I like Uncle Wes, as an everyday player.....uh not so much. There is a place in the game for someone like Helms, he has stepped forward as a leader on this team, but his value to the team doesn't lie in his playing abilities. I'm in the boat that Tracy could provide for us the same production as Helms and I think he could step into the veteran leader if given the chance.

 

 

 

Essentially, they're indentical players. They both have similar career fielding %'s at both 1B (Tracy a slight edge) and at 3B (Helms a slight edge). The main difference is that Tracy is left-handed and hits righties better while Helms is right-handed and hits lefties better. Keep them both and you have essentially the same player on the field, and use the appropriate hitter for the handedness of the pitcher.

 

Then, everyone can start threads about how much Wes Helms AND Chad Tracy suck, and criticize the FO for keeping both of them.

There will always be a whipping boy

Because Gload was left handed, a much better first baseman and could play the outfield too.

 

 

Now, let me clarify one thing. This whole Helms/Gload thing started when Erick said we should have kept Gload over Helms, after discussing their pinch-hitting abilities.

 

I never said this. For what it's worth, I could care less for either one. Pinch-hitters are easy to replace, and should be cheap.

There will always be a whipping boy

 

What is this supposed to mean? I detect a hint of condescension here, so forgive me if I am mistaken.

 

It's not like everyone is perplexed as to why the Marlins are missing the playoffs this season and need someone to take out their anger upon. And there doesn't have to be someone purely designated to be torn apart.

 

Intelligent fans who like to discuss and analyze their team will always point out weaknesses and poor moves made by the GM's office. This is a constructive activity. Wes Helms is being called out for good reason. He doesn't produce on the field and is making (and will be again in 2011) more money than he should be, based upon his performance. For a cash starved team, spending $1 million on an easily replaced commodity like Wes Helms is cause for anger, when one realizes that money could be spent on improving the bullpen, which is a real weakness for the team. Every million counts when you are the Marlins.

 

People sharply criticized Cantu, Bonifacio, and whomever else because they weren't producing and were blocking better players, not because they were hungry to find someone to unleash their rage upon.

 

Being permanent optimist toward poorly producing players is a superficiality that many of us do not want to have integrated with our fandom.

There will always be a whipping boy

 

What is this supposed to mean? I detect a hint of condescension here, so forgive me if I am mistaken.

 

It's not like everyone is perplexed as to why the Marlins are missing the playoffs this season and need someone to take out their anger upon. And there doesn't have to be someone purely designated to be torn apart.

 

Intelligent fans who like to discuss and analyze their team will always point out weaknesses and poor moves made by the GM's office. This is a constructive activity. Wes Helms is being called out for good reason. He doesn't produce on the field and is making (and will be again in 2011) more money than he should be, based upon his performance. For a cash starved team, spending $1 million on an easily replaced commodity like Wes Helms is cause for anger, when one realizes that money could be spent on improving the bullpen, which is a real weakness for the team. Every million counts when you are the Marlins.

 

People sharply criticized Cantu, Bonifacio, and whomever else because they weren't producing and were blocking better players, not because they were hungry to find someone to unleash their rage upon.

 

Being permanent optimist toward poorly producing players is a superficiality that many of us do not want to have integrated with our fandom.

 

This is the only part I disagree with. According to Fangraphs.com, 2010 is the first season the Marlins have paid him more than what he's worth on the open market. And even at that, they're only overpaying him by 150k. If he returns to the form of previous years next year, he will once again justify his salary.

Worth vs. Actual Salary:

06: $7.3 million vs. $800k

08: $1.1 million vs. $1

09: $2.0 million vs. 950k

10: $800k vs. 950k

Because Gload was left handed, a much better first baseman and could play the outfield too.

 

 

I'll give you the obvious one in that he's left handed.

 

But as far as Gload being a "much better 1B," are you referring to defense? Gload has a career .995 1B fielding %, compared to Helms' .991 1B career fielding %. If both were full time starters at 1B, Helms would commit approximately 6 more errors than Gload each season. Is that enough to justify calling Gload a "much better 1B?" If you still think so, factor in that neither one of them would have started full-time at 1B for the Marlins. In '09, Ross Gload played the equivalent of 1/4 of a season at 1B in terms of fielding "chances." So, for comparison, you give Helms the same number of chances, and in the capacity that the Marlins would have used them at 1B, Helms would have commited 2 more errors than Gload.

 

If you're also going to give Gload the advantage of playing in the outfield, then don't forget the part about Helms being capable of playing the IF.

 

Now, let me clarify one thing. This whole Helms/Gload thing I'm debating is if we should have kept Gload over Helms, after discussing their pinch-hitting abilities. When I asked why they would have given Gload the contract he was seeking, I was still referring to him replacing Helms in a pinch-hitting capacity, while Helms was still under contract. Now, if you're stating that they should have kept Gload because he's "left-handed, a much better first baseman, and could play the outfield, too" while keeping Helms on the team also, then I'm right there with you. But I don't feel those three reasons you gave would have justified giving him the 2 year/1.3 mil per year salary he was seeking, if you're using him to replace Helms, especially while Helms was still under contract for another year.

 

Edited for misquoting Erick. My apologies.

There will always be a whipping boy

 

What is this supposed to mean? I detect a hint of condescension here, so forgive me if I am mistaken.

 

It's not like everyone is perplexed as to why the Marlins are missing the playoffs this season and need someone to take out their anger upon. And there doesn't have to be someone purely designated to be torn apart.

 

Intelligent fans who like to discuss and analyze their team will always point out weaknesses and poor moves made by the GM's office. This is a constructive activity. Wes Helms is being called out for good reason. He doesn't produce on the field and is making (and will be again in 2011) more money than he should be, based upon his performance. For a cash starved team, spending $1 million on an easily replaced commodity like Wes Helms is cause for anger, when one realizes that money could be spent on improving the bullpen, which is a real weakness for the team. Every million counts when you are the Marlins.

 

People sharply criticized Cantu, Bonifacio, and whomever else because they weren't producing and were blocking better players, not because they were hungry to find someone to unleash their rage upon.

 

Being permanent optimist toward poorly producing players is a superficiality that many of us do not want to have integrated with our fandom.

 

This is the only part I disagree with. According to Fangraphs.com, 2010 is the first season the Marlins have paid him more than what he's worth on the open market. And even at that, they're only overpaying him by 150k. If he returns to the form of previous years next year, he will once again justify his salary.

Worth vs. Actual Salary:

06: $7.3 million vs. $800k

08: $1.1 million vs. $1

09: $2.0 million vs. 950k

10: $800k vs. 950k

Those Fangraphs "worth" amounts are ridiculous. This year for example he's playing below replacement level (3 runs below replacement) so if we had 25 players as "good" as Wes we would have a winning percentage around .300 so no he's not worth $800k.

There will always be a whipping boy

 

What is this supposed to mean? I detect a hint of condescension here, so forgive me if I am mistaken.

 

It's not like everyone is perplexed as to why the Marlins are missing the playoffs this season and need someone to take out their anger upon. And there doesn't have to be someone purely designated to be torn apart.

 

Intelligent fans who like to discuss and analyze their team will always point out weaknesses and poor moves made by the GM's office. This is a constructive activity. Wes Helms is being called out for good reason. He doesn't produce on the field and is making (and will be again in 2011) more money than he should be, based upon his performance. For a cash starved team, spending $1 million on an easily replaced commodity like Wes Helms is cause for anger, when one realizes that money could be spent on improving the bullpen, which is a real weakness for the team. Every million counts when you are the Marlins.

 

People sharply criticized Cantu, Bonifacio, and whomever else because they weren't producing and were blocking better players, not because they were hungry to find someone to unleash their rage upon.

 

Being permanent optimist toward poorly producing players is a superficiality that many of us do not want to have integrated with our fandom.

 

This is the only part I disagree with. According to Fangraphs.com, 2010 is the first season the Marlins have paid him more than what he's worth on the open market. And even at that, they're only overpaying him by 150k. If he returns to the form of previous years next year, he will once again justify his salary.

Worth vs. Actual Salary:

06: $7.3 million vs. $800k

08: $1.1 million vs. $1

09: $2.0 million vs. 950k

10: $800k vs. 950k

 

So the year that he underperforms, the Marlins sign him to another year.

 

Helms is old and getting worse as a player.

There will always be a whipping boy

 

What is this supposed to mean? I detect a hint of condescension here, so forgive me if I am mistaken.

 

It's not like everyone is perplexed as to why the Marlins are missing the playoffs this season and need someone to take out their anger upon. And there doesn't have to be someone purely designated to be torn apart.

 

Intelligent fans who like to discuss and analyze their team will always point out weaknesses and poor moves made by the GM's office. This is a constructive activity. Wes Helms is being called out for good reason. He doesn't produce on the field and is making (and will be again in 2011) more money than he should be, based upon his performance. For a cash starved team, spending $1 million on an easily replaced commodity like Wes Helms is cause for anger, when one realizes that money could be spent on improving the bullpen, which is a real weakness for the team. Every million counts when you are the Marlins.

 

People sharply criticized Cantu, Bonifacio, and whomever else because they weren't producing and were blocking better players, not because they were hungry to find someone to unleash their rage upon.

 

Being permanent optimist toward poorly producing players is a superficiality that many of us do not want to have integrated with our fandom.

 

This is the only part I disagree with. According to Fangraphs.com, 2010 is the first season the Marlins have paid him more than what he's worth on the open market. And even at that, they're only overpaying him by 150k. If he returns to the form of previous years next year, he will once again justify his salary.

Worth vs. Actual Salary:

06: $7.3 million vs. $800k

08: $1.1 million vs. $1

09: $2.0 million vs. 950k

10: $800k vs. 950k

This is very flimsy.

 

First of all, those dollar conversions are very rough approximations. They are based on WAR, and there is not one set way to calculate WAR. Fangraphs is more forgiving toward Helms, but Baseball Reference (which many believe to be more comprehensive) has him in the red in both 2008 and 2010. I would argue that he had some value in 2009, which is consistent with the numbers, but that doesn't warrant bringing him back at 2011 at $1 million, based upon what he's doing this year. Furthermore, "returning to form" (whatever that is) is very much in doubt. It's very unlikely that he will be a replacement player or better in 2011 and he will be making $1 million.

 

Furthermore, even if those dollar estimates were accurate (they aren't), the Marlins need to rely on a model (as they have been) of securing bench players and bullpen arms at price tags much below that dollar amount. This is the only way for them to meet payroll and field a competitive team.

 

Under no circumstances is it justifiable to be paying Helms $1 million in 2011. I'm sure they can find someone to hang Chris Coghlan's spikes from the ceiling for free.

There will always be a whipping boy

 

What is this supposed to mean? I detect a hint of condescension here, so forgive me if I am mistaken.

 

It's not like everyone is perplexed as to why the Marlins are missing the playoffs this season and need someone to take out their anger upon. And there doesn't have to be someone purely designated to be torn apart.

 

Intelligent fans who like to discuss and analyze their team will always point out weaknesses and poor moves made by the GM's office. This is a constructive activity. Wes Helms is being called out for good reason. He doesn't produce on the field and is making (and will be again in 2011) more money than he should be, based upon his performance. For a cash starved team, spending $1 million on an easily replaced commodity like Wes Helms is cause for anger, when one realizes that money could be spent on improving the bullpen, which is a real weakness for the team. Every million counts when you are the Marlins.

 

People sharply criticized Cantu, Bonifacio, and whomever else because they weren't producing and were blocking better players, not because they were hungry to find someone to unleash their rage upon.

 

Being permanent optimist toward poorly producing players is a superficiality that many of us do not want to have integrated with our fandom.

:lol - Do you try to be a prick on purpose, or is that just how you normally are?

 

You were definitely overthinking my comment.. I was JUST saying, to go along with the above post, no matter what, every team will have a player who fans rag on.THAT'S IT. That's how sports. work.

 

My goodness..

:lol - Do you try to be a prick on purpose, or is that just how you normally are?

 

You were definitely overthinking my comment.. I was JUST saying, to go along with the above post, no matter what, every team will have a player who fans rag on.THAT'S IT. That's how sports. work.

 

My goodness..

 

 

Iowa, thanks for personally attacking me and calling me a "prick." Hopefully a mod will see your post.

 

I don't see anything offensive in my post that warranted such a response.

 

Your sentence was vague, so I asked for clarification and wanted to provoke discussion. Blowing up like that was not necessary.

I'm sure if you changed 'he should retire' to 'he should be murdered' on the poll, that'd be the winner. It seems people personally hate him on these boards. He's not very good, alright we get it. People don't seem to differentiate what he says from what others say of him; he doesn't call himself a professional and he doesn't call himself Uncle Wes either. It seems that so much criticism comes from what other players and the media say about him that many forget that he's just a ballplayer playing the game to the best of his abilities. He isn't going to take less money because you all want him to and he isn't going to retire either. It seems half of you hate him now that he's making more money, as if he's stealing from you or as if he held Loria at gunpoint and forced this contract.

Iowa, thanks for personally attacking me and calling me a "prick." Hopefully a mod will see your post.

 

I don't see anything offensive in my post that warranted such a response.

 

Your sentence was vague, so I asked for clarification and wanted to provoke discussion. Blowing up like that was not necessary.

 

Wes Helms is hated on because the Marlins have a budget, and they're overpaying for the unproductive Helms when there are other areas of need on the team. Helms, at this point in his career, is useless.

 

The only team in baseball that would pay him $1 million to be on a roster is the Marlins, and it's only because of his so-called great "leadership." "Leadership" that's apparently so valuable that it's never led this team anywhere.

 

That's why certain people dislike him, right now.

I checked out this thread because I was curious how Erick feels about Wes Helms!

 

 

 

:hat

There should be an option for "Don't care".

 

Wes Helms is hated on because the Marlins have a budget, and they're overpaying for the unproductive Helms when there are other areas of need on the team. Helms, at this point in his career, is useless.

 

The only team in baseball that would pay him $1 million to be on a roster is the Marlins, and it's only because of his so-called great "leadership." "Leadership" that's apparently so valuable that it's never led this team anywhere.

 

That's why certain people dislike him, right now.

 

Just imagine where this team would be without his leadership. We'd be the Pirates.