The ideas from this past offseason were supposedly Loria's ideas. Those turned out magnificent...

 

Not so sure about it being his ideas. Other than giving the okay to spend x amount on any certain player. You are making it sound like he was saying go out and bring this guy in, and this guy, and..... I doubt that happened.

 

I will agree to a point, tho. I think that sometimes he goes against advice from his staff. Glaring case in point, the Girardi hiring. And I don't agree with doing that. You pay guys to do a job, you should let them do their jobs. If you trusted them enough to hire them in the first place, then it's a bit hypocritical to not trust them when decision making times arise. But I do think he has gotten better.

BroncoBob, competitors want to win and give themselves the best chance to do so. No one really wants to play for a team that has no shot.

 

Apparently your use of the term "no one" means you. I just fail to see why anyone would already be writing next season off. Here's an example for ya. After the '02 season, in a trade with Denver, we got JP and Mike Hampton. Hampton outright said he didn't want to come here because he wanted to play for a team that had a shot, so the team immediatly traded him to Atlanta. By immediatly I mean the same day. I do believe that "thumping" you keep hearing is him still kicking himself. Moral of this little story.....You don't write off a season before the season even starts.

 

The two following posts by gizmo and EW tell the story. Although EW mentioning South Beach means very little, the no state tax reason was a good call and something I had forgotten about.

 

2003 was a much, much different team than this, and the division is a lot different as well.

 

We have two teams that will be better than the Marlins regardless of what moves they can be reasonably expected to make. Then you have the Nats and Mets and who will try to improve. Really, the Marlins are in closer competition with those two teams than they are the top two teams..

 

Speaking of the Nationals, they have been throwing out craploads of money at top free agents for years now, but no one until Werth actually agreed to go there.

You always display such a negative attitude. And missed the point entirely.

 

I think I'll just wait and see what happens during the off season, into ST, and the regular season before I throw in the towel.

 

BTW Might want to check out the Nats before you say no other FA ever went there before Werth.

 

Call it whatever you want. I base my opinion on the free agent class and who the Marlins are most likely to attain. And then I look at the farm system, where the major league ready prospects are few and far between, and those that may exist are not going to be anything more than "okay" players. And then I look at the history of the team's moves for the last couple of years and the results of those moves, and I see a team that does not change very much year to year. Then I look at questions like Josh Johnson's health and Hanley Ramirez's health. Based on this very obvious analysis, we can reasonably expect a team next year that looks a lot like this year's version. The stadium will bring in new revenue, but it will mostly be used to lock up guys like Stanton rather than adding new talent.

Guys like Pujols supposedly are very interested in signing with the Marlins despite the fact that the Braves and Phillies are much stronger teams right now. However, Pujols' interest in the Marlins doesn't amount to much as soon as you consider the amount of money it will take to sign him. So even if he's interested, any hypothetical offer would have to be at least competitive.

 

The Marlins seem to be cautious enough to resist paying Pujols obscene sums of money into his late 30s, but even with the new stadium they probably don't have the financial resources to do it even if they wanted to.

 

I do think that in free agent signings money has much more influence (generally) than the competitiveness of team does.

Loria and company have been trying to rebuild the exact 2003 team team for years now, which is nearly impossible because everything simply fell into place that year. As much as they would like to take credit for that team, it wasn't really a stroke of genius that put that team on the field....more like dumb luck.

 

 

I fail to see how that was a lucky season.

 

Also, the reason why they became mediocre after that was because they began building teams with an identity that was the equivalent to the complete opposite of that team.

The ideas from this past offseason were supposedly Loria's ideas. Those turned out magnificent...

 

Not so sure about it being his ideas. Other than giving the okay to spend x amount on any certain player. You are making it sound like he was saying go out and bring this guy in, and this guy, and..... I doubt that happened.

 

I will agree to a point, tho. I think that sometimes he goes against advice from his staff. Glaring case in point, the Girardi hiring. And I don't agree with doing that. You pay guys to do a job, you should let them do their jobs. If you trusted them enough to hire them in the first place, then it's a bit hypocritical to not trust them when decision making times arise. But I do think he has gotten better.

 

There have been articles stating that he (Loria) was the reason why the focus of the offseason was the bullpen.

 

I believe that too because Beinfest has never overvalued bullpen arms.

If it's up to Beinfest/Hill, I think Cameron Maybin is still a Marlin, to be honest.

 

The way last offseason was handled is the complete opposite of the way they've normally been.

Loria and company have been trying to rebuild the exact 2003 team team for years now, which is nearly impossible because everything simply fell into place that year. As much as they would like to take credit for that team, it wasn't really a stroke of genius that put that team on the field....more like dumb luck.

 

 

I fail to see how that was a lucky season.

 

Also, the reason why they became mediocre after that was because they began building teams with an identity that was the equivalent to the complete opposite of that team.

 

You don't think the 2003 Marlins were lucky? They came into the year with Todd Hollandsworth as left fielder, a guy who was horribly inconsistent and unpredictable throughout the year. Their bench was pretty much a joke, composed mostly of guys who wouldn't even put up numbers in AAA if forced to start. There were guys who saw significant time in the bullpen that were flat out atrocious, and while that is true of many teams, there were no reliable or proven stable relievers to balance them out, although there were guys who stepped up. The team had a rookie pitcher who was flat out dominant for a while, which couldn't have been predicted. They got a huge boost from another rookie who was 20 at the oldest. These things could be considered luck as much as anything. Mark Redman also had an unpredictably stellar & career year, although that is less unpredictable than others.

 

Maybe the Marlins FO could be considered good for just having put the stage together for things to fall in place by everyone outperforming what they could be expected, but there are multiple teams each year that are built so well they would have a hard time not making the playoffs. Look at the Phillies this year, where nearly everyone in their lineup is either an MVP candidate (not necessarily this year), HR champion, or batting title caliber hitter. Oh, and if that wasn't enough they went out and got Hunter Pence, a guy whose a lock to make 25 homers and provide good production elsewhere every year. They've got pretty much the two best pitchers in the game and another cy-young caliber pitcher in their rotation, and I haven't even mentioned Cole Hamels. This team wasn't satisfied having players who might be good if they are having career years, they got guys who are only not going to be good if they have career worst years.

 

You can make any excuse you want, and I've heard them all, but the bottom line is that the Marlins come into every season satisfied by having 20 year old third basemen as their projected starter, pinning their hopes on guys who have never done it consistently to do it this one year where every other player would have to be doing the same thing. That team can't be expected to win, but the Marlins blissfully believe it can because it has happened once- 2003.

The ideas from this past offseason were supposedly Loria's ideas. Those turned out magnificent...

 

Not so sure about it being his ideas. Other than giving the okay to spend x amount on any certain player. You are making it sound like he was saying go out and bring this guy in, and this guy, and..... I doubt that happened.

 

I will agree to a point, tho. I think that sometimes he goes against advice from his staff. Glaring case in point, the Girardi hiring. And I don't agree with doing that. You pay guys to do a job, you should let them do their jobs. If you trusted them enough to hire them in the first place, then it's a bit hypocritical to not trust them when decision making times arise. But I do think he has gotten better.

 

There have been articles stating that he (Loria) was the reason why the focus of the offseason was the bullpen.

 

I believe that too because Beinfest has never overvalued bullpen arms.

If it's up to Beinfest/Hill, I think Cameron Maybin is still a Marlin, to be honest.

 

The way last offseason was handled is the complete opposite of the way they've normally been.

 

The problem with Beinfest/Hill and Cameron Maybin is that he spent years before shuffled back and forth between the majors and minors when he wasn't ready and should have just been in the minors for most of the time.

 

I don't have a problem with the team wanting to fix the bullpen, but getting what they did out of Uggla is ridiculous.

Loria and company have been trying to rebuild the exact 2003 team team for years now, which is nearly impossible because everything simply fell into place that year. As much as they would like to take credit for that team, it wasn't really a stroke of genius that put that team on the field....more like dumb luck.

 

 

I fail to see how that was a lucky season.

 

Also, the reason why they became mediocre after that was because they began building teams with an identity that was the equivalent to the complete opposite of that team.

 

You don't think the 2003 Marlins were lucky? They came into the year with Todd Hollandsworth as left fielder, a guy who was horribly inconsistent and unpredictable throughout the year. Their bench was pretty much a joke, composed mostly of guys who wouldn't even put up numbers in AAA if forced to start. There were guys who saw significant time in the bullpen that were flat out atrocious, and while that is true of many teams, there were no reliable or proven stable relievers to balance them out, although there were guys who stepped up. The team had a rookie pitcher who was flat out dominant for a while, which couldn't have been predicted. They got a huge boost from another rookie who was 20 at the oldest. These things could be considered luck as much as anything. Mark Redman also had an unpredictably stellar & career year, although that is less unpredictable than others.

 

Maybe the Marlins FO could be considered good for just having put the stage together for things to fall in place by everyone outperforming what they could be expected, but there are multiple teams each year that are built so well they would have a hard time not making the playoffs. Look at the Phillies this year, where nearly everyone in their lineup is either an MVP candidate (not necessarily this year), HR champion, or batting title caliber hitter. Oh, and if that wasn't enough they went out and got Hunter Pence, a guy whose a lock to make 25 homers and provide good production elsewhere every year. They've got pretty much the two best pitchers in the game and another cy-young caliber pitcher in their rotation, and I haven't even mentioned Cole Hamels. This team wasn't satisfied having players who might be good if they are having career years, they got guys who are only not going to be good if they have career worst years.

 

You can make any excuse you want, and I've heard them all, but the bottom line is that the Marlins come into every season satisfied by having 20 year old third basemen as their projected starter, pinning their hopes on guys who have never done it consistently to do it this one year where every other player would have to be doing the same thing. That team can't be expected to win, but the Marlins blissfully believe it can because it has happened once- 2003.

Oh right, so since we're not as good as what is maybe a Top-5 all-time team with a 7-figure payroll, then we suck.

Lucky = players having career years. I think we had some of that in 2003, but it was mostly a good crop of talent.

I wouldn't really call the 2003 season "lucky."

 

Dombrowski had assembled a pretty talented core of players that were still under club control (Castillo, Lee, Lowell, Gonzalez, Beckett) and Beinfest made several smart trades and signings of his own to add to that core (Pudge, Redman, Pierre, Pavano). And both managed to sustain some minor league depth in the form of Cabrera and Willis.

 

The Marlins had a pretty solid rotation that year, which was also pretty consistent. That's huge. Their starters had the sixth best ERA in the majors in 2003. When you have that in place, the playoffs are a legitimate possibility when you have a combination of some great power bats (Lowell, Lee, Pudge) mixed with some guys who could get on base (Castillo, Pierre). The awesome defense was also able to compensate for some of the weaker bats in the lineup and a pretty poor bench.

 

The only thing that might seem like a fluke to me is that Redman and Willis pitched as well as they did.

Loria and company have been trying to rebuild the exact 2003 team team for years now, which is nearly impossible because everything simply fell into place that year. As much as they would like to take credit for that team, it wasn't really a stroke of genius that put that team on the field....more like dumb luck.

 

 

I fail to see how that was a lucky season.

 

Also, the reason why they became mediocre after that was because they began building teams with an identity that was the equivalent to the complete opposite of that team.

 

You don't think the 2003 Marlins were lucky? They came into the year with Todd Hollandsworth as left fielder, a guy who was horribly inconsistent and unpredictable throughout the year. Their bench was pretty much a joke, composed mostly of guys who wouldn't even put up numbers in AAA if forced to start. There were guys who saw significant time in the bullpen that were flat out atrocious, and while that is true of many teams, there were no reliable or proven stable relievers to balance them out, although there were guys who stepped up. The team had a rookie pitcher who was flat out dominant for a while, which couldn't have been predicted. They got a huge boost from another rookie who was 20 at the oldest. These things could be considered luck as much as anything. Mark Redman also had an unpredictably stellar & career year, although that is less unpredictable than others.

 

Maybe the Marlins FO could be considered good for just having put the stage together for things to fall in place by everyone outperforming what they could be expected, but there are multiple teams each year that are built so well they would have a hard time not making the playoffs. Look at the Phillies this year, where nearly everyone in their lineup is either an MVP candidate (not necessarily this year), HR champion, or batting title caliber hitter. Oh, and if that wasn't enough they went out and got Hunter Pence, a guy whose a lock to make 25 homers and provide good production elsewhere every year. They've got pretty much the two best pitchers in the game and another cy-young caliber pitcher in their rotation, and I haven't even mentioned Cole Hamels. This team wasn't satisfied having players who might be good if they are having career years, they got guys who are only not going to be good if they have career worst years.

 

You can make any excuse you want, and I've heard them all, but the bottom line is that the Marlins come into every season satisfied by having 20 year old third basemen as their projected starter, pinning their hopes on guys who have never done it consistently to do it this one year where every other player would have to be doing the same thing. That team can't be expected to win, but the Marlins blissfully believe it can because it has happened once- 2003.

Oh right, so since we're not as good as what is maybe a Top-5 all-time team with a 7-figure payroll, then we suck.

Lucky = players having career years. I think we had some of that in 2003, but it was mostly a good crop of talent.

 

2003 had a good crop of frontline talent backed by some really poor talent. That was where the luck came in as much as anything, and the Marlins think they can have that luck every year. We've seen guys like Dan Uggla, Hanley Ramirez, heck even Miggy in lineups where we could have looked at the team and said "it's a pretty good crop of talent" if they had been winners, but those teams were brought down by the same things that the 2003 team was lucky as hell not to be brought down by- mainly that there were guys starting who had no business doing so, that there was nothing reliable in the bullpen, and that we were always literally projecting young players into starting roles hoping that they would magically perform up to raw tools (like what happened in 2003) when almost every time in baseball, that just doesn't happen.

I wouldn't really call the 2003 season "lucky."

 

Dombrowski had assembled a pretty talented core of players that were still under club control (Castillo, Lee, Lowell, Gonzalez, Beckett) and Beinfest made several smart trades and signings of his own to add to that core (Pudge, Redman, Pierre, Pavano). And both managed to sustain some minor league depth in the form of Cabrera and Willis.

 

The Marlins had a pretty solid rotation that year, which was also pretty consistent. That's huge. Their starters had the sixth best ERA in the majors in 2003. When you have that in place, the playoffs are a legitimate possibility when you have a combination of some great power bats (Lowell, Lee, Pudge) mixed with some guys who could get on base (Castillo, Pierre). The awesome defense was also able to compensate for some of the weaker bats in the lineup and a pretty poor bench.

 

The only thing that might seem like a fluke to me is that Redman and Willis pitched as well as they did.

 

 

Let's say you're right and that 2003 was just the type of talent that allows you to hide those weaknesses. I can see that, and in a way it doesn't really disprove the original starting point (made by someone else) that the problem is every team since 2003 has been constructed trying to be like 2003. The Fo learned that year, wrongly, that you can ignore certain aspects of your ballclub and still be successful. We only had the right combination of talent to do that once, and with a team whose star player is miscast as a three hole hitter and is poor at defending his incredibly important defensive position, you aren't going find that magic ground again.

I think it mostly comes down to the fact that the Marlins haven't really been able to assemble a solid rotation in recent years. It's not uncommon for a playoff team to have the weaknesses in the way that the Marlins had them in 2003. The Marlins also addressed them smartly by replacing Hollandsworth and adding Urbina. The Urbina addition was huge, but it's worth noting that the bullpen as a whole was still only a little bit below MLB average that season in team ERA (the Yankees were just a bit above average).

Every team that has ever won a World Series ever has gotten lucky at some point.

 

a team whose star player is miscast as a three hole hitter

 

 

 

I do not understand this.

 

For the 5 years prior to this season, Hanley's combined line was .313/.385/.521.

 

You're talking about RBI, aren't you?

I was just going to address that. He always says that about Hanley, then disappears when he's called out on it.

We've had conversations regarding Hanley numerous times. I'm not gonna waste my energy explaining things that I've already enumerated in other threads, and considering Hanley has done nothing but suck since then I would think they are still relevant.

We've had conversations regarding Hanley numerous times. I'm not gonna waste my energy explaining things that I've already enumerated in other threads, and considering Hanley has done nothing but suck since then I would think they are still relevant.

 

 

So...

 

When he was putting up 5 consecutive years of .850+ OPSes and 3 of .900+, you knew he would then put up a season of a .720?

 

You're talking about RBI, aren't you?

Anyhoo, who is on this team as an OF next year. Starting and bench wise...

 

LF: Lomo

LF/CF/RF: Petersen

RF: God.

CF: Cameron

LF/CF: Cogs

LF/CF/RF/SS/2B/3B Boner

LF/2B/SS/3B/? Infante

 

WHO?!?!?!

 

I say...

 

LF: Lomo

CF: Petersen

RF: God

4th (aka bench OF): Cogs.

The reasons for the 2003 team being a fluke are extremely stupid.

 

Saying that the team was lucky because they had a guy like Todd Hollandsworth playing LF. I guess the Red Sox are not legit because, uh, they have Marco Scutaro at SS.

 

The 2003 team basically took the path that every team that has ever won a World Series has taken.

 

They had good players in the prime of their careers, basically. They had very good starting pitching that year and were rather stellar, defensively.

 

The team on Opening Day was clearly a lot different than the team they finished the year with.

 

They finished 20 games over .500, outscoring opponents by about 60 runs that year.

 

What a fluke.

 

Also, I don't see why you'd have a bigger issue with the Uggla deal than the Maybin deal. Unless if you think they should've paid Uggla or waited longer (which is what I think they should've done). However, it was reported that Uggla's value was terrible at the time he was traded. I believe the Blue Jays were the other team interested and their rumored offer was worse.

The team on Opening Day was clearly a lot different than the team they finished the year with.

 

 

 

Yes, it was, which is testament to how well the FO handled finding guys to supplement that team during the year, but also testament to how they constructed parts of it pretty poorly before the season. They haven't been as lucky picking up spare parts during seasons, not since they picked up Cody Ross in 2006, and most of their pickups are almost laughable in the far too little far too late mold.

 

In regards to your other point, it bears mentioning that Marco Scutaro has been a better offensive player this year than Todd Hollandsworth was with us, all the while Scutaro is playing SS (742 to 739 OPS).

The team on Opening Day was clearly a lot different than the team they finished the year with.

 

 

 

Yes, it was, which is testament to how well the FO handled finding guys to supplement that team during the year, but also testament to how they constructed parts of it pretty poorly before the season. They haven't been as lucky picking up spare parts during seasons, not since they picked up Cody Ross in 2006, and most of their pickups are almost laughable in the far too little far too late mold.

 

In regards to your other point, it bears mentioning that Marco Scutaro has been a better offensive player this year than Todd Hollandsworth was with us, all the while Scutaro is playing SS (742 to 739 OPS).

 

Fair enough.

 

What you said was basically the equivalent of the Red Sox taking a chance with Jarrod Saltalamacchia being their starting catcher before the year began. I guess they're a fluke because they got lucky there, in comparison to what he's been the rest of his career.

 

My point is that it's silly to nitpick a position or two of mediocrity and say the team was lucky because they didn't fill out those positions before the year began.

 

Even the teams with the highest of payrolls will still go into Opening Day with a position or two being mediocre.

 

You're talking about what the Marlins had on the field that year like if they were last year's Giants or something.

Anyhoo, who is on this team as an OF next year. Starting and bench wise...

 

LF: Lomo

LF/CF/RF: Petersen

RF: God.

CF: Cameron

LF/CF: Cogs

LF/CF/RF/SS/2B/3B Boner

LF/2B/SS/3B/? Infante

 

WHO?!?!?!

 

I say...

 

LF: Lomo

CF: Petersen

RF: God

4th (aka bench OF): Cogs.

 

 

What do we realistically expect peterson to hit? and is cousins going to be healthy come next year? if he is, his defense makes him a better 4th OF then cogs.

I really like Peterson.

 

I don't know whether he can keep up his current pace, but he should definitely be considered for the CF job.

I still don't think I feel comfortable having him start. Having him as a 4th OF would be great, though.

By Jayson Stark

ESPN.com

Archive

 

 

Most unlikely offseason spenders

 

Believe it or not, Dodgers and Marlins could be big players this offseason

 

 

The Marlins

 

They aren't just moving into a new ballpark. They're moving into a new universe.

For 19 seasons, the Marlins have been playing baseball in a stadium with no roof, no air conditioners, virtually no revenue streams and no reminders that anything of note ever occurred there that wasn't accomplished by a bunch of men wearing shoulder pads.

So when this team sets up shop in its gleaming new 21st-century baseball palace in Miami next spring, this is its time -- to change everything.

 

The Marlins know it. The entire baseball world knows it. And that explains why so many folks within the sport -- agents, other front offices, even players -- are hearing that the Fish could be chasing some big, big names this winter. And by that, we don't just mean Ozzie Guillen.

Albert Pujols? Prince Fielder? Jose Reyes? Aramis Ramirez? C.J. Wilson? From all indications, they haven't ruled anything out.

"With our payroll going up, we have a chance to put together a team at a payroll level we don't currently have," team president David Samson told Rumblings. "And that could involve anything -- trades, free agents or a combination of both."

They're not saying exactly which names they might pursue, or how much higher that payroll will be soaring. But face it: There's nowhere to go but up. And the fact is, it needs to go up -- because if they want to survive, if they want to keep people streaming into that ballpark beyond next year, the pressure is on.

This is their shot -- maybe their only shot -- to open eyes, to shock the world, to re-energize a fan base that has tuned them out. And just hiring a famous manager won't be enough -- although that's clearly on their agenda, too.

They'd hoped to build momentum by contending THIS year. Oh, well. They'd hoped that Josh Johnson, Hanley Ramirez, Logan Morrison and Mike Stanton were going to pole-vault into the superstar stratosphere THIS YEAR. Oh, well. At least Stanton did his part.

But even though that part of the plan didn't work, those are still four potentially great players, when healthy, who could form a core group that any team would love to build around. Now, the challenge is to do more. Much more.

And everything we hear indicates they recognize that. So suddenly, the vibe that people in other front offices are getting is that the Marlins plan to go "all-in," that they're "going to be aggressive" on a bunch of big names this winter, and that they're "going to pay" if that's what it takes.

It's hard to imagine them piling upward of 200 million bucks in front of someone like Pujols. But that talk just doesn't go away.

It's hard to comprehend the concept of the Marlins being the highest bidder on someone like Reyes. But their current shortstop, the artist formerly known as Hanley, has already said publicly he would move to third base to make room if that happens.

And there are rumblings that this team will be firing on all cylinders, trying to reel in a top-of-the-rotation starter to pair with Johnson -- because, as the Marlins look around at the rotation the Phillies roll out there and the staffs the Braves and Nationals are building, that's the only way to do business in the NL East.

Samson said they haven't formulated the specifics of their game plan yet, because "we don't know what the market is. And we don't know what the feelings are of the [baseball] people who'll be putting the plan together. We just don't know those things yet. But we're definitely going to start talking -- about everything."

So it will be fascinating to see where this leads. But as easy as it is to be skeptical, remember this: They only get to open their new park once. They only get one chance to attract people to check out the scenery as the new tourist attraction it is. After that, they'll need to give those people a reason to keep coming back.

 

And you know, we know and they know that a roof and an air conditioner won't be a good enough reason. So gentlemen, start your checkbooks. The only thing riding on it in beautiful downtown Miami this offseason is, well, everything.

 

 

Whole artilce can be read here. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings110916/florida-marlins-los-angeles-dodgers-spend-big-offseason