Yeah, pitching is pretty important. 

 

Our #4 sucks. Our #5 sucks. And while I like Chen and Conley, they're not exactly lights out so they're prone to some bad starts too. Our bullpen should be better the rest of the way by default just by not having Breslow, Narveson, Ege, etc., etc. on the roster. Although we always have a couple of losers in our pen who, for whatever reason, end up deciding games. 

 

As for our lineup, it's pretty good, but it's also not as great as everyone thinks. 

 

We have a .500 roster right now. Which isn't terrible, but it does mean we would need to improve at the trade deadline. Stanton is one of the good pieces on the roster, not one of the bad ones. That's all I'm saying.

 

In that case I agree with you completely. Stanton by all means is an asset to our team. It's not fair to hate on him during a slump.. It's bound to happen. Pitching needs to improve the question is if we even had the tools to do so. 

 

 

Stuff definitely plays a significant part. Not sure how you can say otherwise.

 

It plays a part, yes. But it does not paint the entire picture. Your argument essentially this entire thread has been that he doesn't strike guys out enough to be successful. His entire track record proves otherwise. And again, I'm not saying he's a 2 or even a 3. But when a guy gives up less hits than IP over 70+ innings, and has under a 3 K/9, you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Or else you will constantly have an ignorant bias against him as a player because he doesn't do it like you think he should, or like others do. 

 

 

How does Yelich becoming a superstar mean the rest of the offense is bad? It sounds like a knock on Yelich and I see Yelich is a great player.

 

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That's not what I meant. 

 

I mean that just because Yelich has raised his game to another level doesn't mean Stanton deserves more criticism for not raising his to another level. Stanton's just doing what he's always done.

 

The rest of the supporting cast is fine, but it's not great was all I was saying. Especially against LHP for what it's worth, it's not that great (not that we faced a lefty today, but just saying). When we go from Dietrich/Bour to Rojas/Johnson against lefties, our offense downgrades quite a bit. I like the offense, but I don't think it's as great as everyone seems to believe, especially when Prado's average goes down 60-70 points. 

 

 

canada-marlin criticizes Stanton yet gives Nicolino a pass because he/she thinks he can turn into Buehrle. Weird. 

 

A POSSIBLE  GIRL IN OUR MIDST? WHAT WILL WE EVER DO ???

 

 

It plays a part, yes. But it does not paint the entire picture. Your argument essentially this entire thread has been that he doesn't strike guys out enough to be successful. His entire track record proves otherwise. And again, I'm not saying he's a 2 or even a 3. But when a guy gives up less hits than IP over 70+ innings, and has under a 3 K/9, you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Or else you will constantly have an ignorant bias against him as a player because he doesn't do it like you think he should, or like others do. 

 

His entire track record though proves that he's not a strikeout pitcher. He pitches to contact.

 

And all I'm saying about strikeouts is, how many guys in the big leagues are really good pitchers without striking anyone out? It's incredibly difficult to find one. 

 

 

That's not what I meant. I mean that just because Yelich has raised his game to another level doesn't mean Stanton deserves more criticism for not raising his to another level. Stanton's just doing what he's always done.

 

The rest of the supporting cast is fine, but it's not great was all I was saying. Especially against LHP for what it's worth, it's not that great (not that we faced a lefty today, but just saying). When we go from Dietrich/Bour to Rojas/Johnson against lefties, our offense downgrades quite a bit. I like the offense, but I don't think it's as great as everyone seems to believe, especially when Prado's average goes down 60-70 points. 

Ok.

 

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What do you mean? Arrieta was terrible when he was with the Orioles.. I think he had an average 5.00 ERA.. He even said in an interview he contemplated retiring after just playing for 3 years cause of how bad he was.  

 

Arrieta had terrible results with the Orioles. Doesn't mean he had terrible stuff. Scouts always loved Arrieta's stuff, and, for good reason. He always had the velocity and the other pitches, just poor control/command. 

 

The thing is, when you have good stuff, a coach can coach a young pitcher up to better levels. You can't teach velocity. It's why scouts, first and foremost, always look for stuff in their evaluations. 

 

I get what everyone is saying that it's not all about stuff, but I would say that stuff is the most important aspect of what makes a pitcher great. Look at all the great pitchers in the big leagues; yes, command is obviously very important, but they also all have very good to great stuff.

 

Like, the biggest reason why Jose Fernandez is so awesome is because of his great stuff that leads to...you guessed it, strikeouts. Nicolino's upside is limited. 

 

 

His entire track record though proves that he's not a strikeout pitcher. He pitches to contact.

 

And all I'm saying about strikeouts is, how many guys in the big leagues are really good pitchers without striking anyone out? It's incredibly difficult to find one. 

 

Completely agreed on the second part, and that point is understood. But he doesn't just pitch to contact, he pitches to weak contact at an above average rate. This is the guy he has always been. He was never supposed to develop into a high strike out guy with plus stuff. He was highly drafted because of his command, and his ability to pitch, rather than throw. We will see if it works. 

 

 

Stanton has the capability and needs to be better its that simple. Too many games come and go where his swings are actually laughable. He just isn't one of those guys where its like shit we know he's not going to swing at garbage so we either throw him a strike or he walks. The entire league knows there are plenty of ways to get him out. They dont think that about Bryce Harper.

 

Is he capable of being better? His #'s so far resemble what he's done his entire career. People seem to think that he can cut back on the strikeouts because it seems simple, but maybe that's just something that will follow him. A lot of great power hitters have problems with strikeouts. It doesn't make them or their legacies any worse. Not everyone can be Barry Bonds.

 

Also, all hitters have numerous slumps throughout the year. Even Bryce Harper. I don't know the exact #'s because I don't follow the Nats, but Harper started the season hitting like a god, yet he started this series with his average in the .260's. I'm guessing he had a prolonged slump at some point. We just don't notice it because we don't follow the Nats every day like we follow the Marlins every day. But all hitters, even great hitters, slump. 

 

 

Arrieta had terrible results with the Orioles. Doesn't mean he had terrible stuff. Scouts always loved Arrieta's stuff, and, for good reason. He always had the velocity and the other pitches, just poor control/command. 

 

The thing is, when you have good stuff, a coach can coach a young pitcher up to better levels. You can't teach velocity. It's why scouts, first and foremost, always look for stuff in their evaluations. 

 

I get what everyone is saying that it's not all about stuff, but I would say that stuff is the most important aspect of what makes a pitcher great. Look at all the great pitchers in the big leagues; yes, command is obviously very important, but they also all have very good to great stuff.

 

Like, the biggest reason why Jose Fernandez is so awesome is because of his great stuff that lead to...you guessed it, strikeouts. Nicolino's upside is limited. 

 

But what about the game against LA? You can't say he got lucky. I don't know, I see where you're coming from but I'm just saying for the sake of the team.. He has to get it together. I do think he has the stuff to be a solid ground ball pitcher.. Just has to keep getting more opportunities and not allow three runs in the first inning.  Whatever, on to the next game. We really have nothing better to replace him with so it's just like beating a dead horse at this point. 

 

 

But what about the game against LA? You can't say he got lucky. 

 

Well, no. Maybe to a certain extent since he was pitching to contact that game too, but he did well that night.

 

The problem with contact pitchers (especially extreme contact pitchers...seriously, Nicolino literally strikes no out) is that they seemingly have no margin for error. 

 

The good news for Nicolino (I'm hoping) is that he's never had control issues so I'd like to think his 11 walks in 24 innings won't last. With that said, I would say his upside, considering his talent level, is that of a mediocre #4 (like, a guy with an ERA over 4 who gives you innings). That's the most optimistic thing I can say about him. I hope he becomes that because I think it's unrealistic to expect any better.

 

I really don't know how Nicolino was ever a better prospect than Conley. 

 

 

The sad part is that Nicolino is actually one of the top 5 SP's in our system.

 

 

This is a total dicktease team the way it is set up.  Good enough to play +/- .500 but by season's end collapses under its weight due to injuries and lack of depth.  This is Culture Of Loria and his fucking inability to spend money where holes are glaring and also on his FO's ineptitude for having a clue on how to put together a system.

 

 

Blaming Nicolino is reflective of a lack of understanding of how baseball actually works.

 

Why?

 

 

This is a total dicktease team the way it is set up.  Good enough to play +/- .500 but by season's end collapses under its weight due to injuries and lack of depth.  This is Culture Of Loria and his fucking inability to spend money where holes are glaring and also on his FO's ineptitude for having a clue on how to put together a system.

 

Couldn't have said it better

 

 

Blaming Nicolino is reflective of a lack of understanding of how baseball actually works.

 

I'm not solely blaming Nicolino for today's loss but he's not very good. Just wait until the league has more tape on him. I don't know if the guy who can't strike anyone out will be able to make the neccessary adjustments.

 

 

I'm not solely blaming Nicolino for today's loss but he's not very good. Just wait until the league has more tape on him. I don't know if the guy who can't strike anyone out will be able to make the neccessary adjustments.

 

Also, I'm not sure why Arpen has such a problem with blaming Nicolino since his start was actually pretty bad. We scored first in the game, and Nicolino's response was to walk the first 3 hitters and allow 3 runs in the 1st inning. He couldn't even complete 5 innings. But yeah, "blaming Nicolino is reflective of a lack of understanding of how baseball actually works." Or something. 

 

 

Here's my assessment. Morris sucks. Nicolino sucks. Nicolino isno buehrle. Stanton will never live up to his contract and his slumps can't be tolerated. Also as Stanton goes down so does the team and vice versa. Lastly yelich is pretty good.

 

 

Nicolino has to have pin point control to even have any type of success. 11 walks to 4 strikeouts is pathetic. Outside of his first start this year he hasn't done anything. Had he pitched today against a team that can actually hit like the Cubs it would have been a blow out.

 

Yes this team does seem to go where Stanton takes them but there isn't much depth behind him. Who you gonna sub when he is struggling, Ichiro!? No thanks. Granted they have used him in spurts and he has done ok but with more at bats you will just get the same result as last year.

 

Crappy bullpen outside out bear claw, phelps, Ramos is what hurts us. Factor in the inability to consistently hit with RISP and that's an issue.

 

Also like Erick said you also run into issues when facing a good LHP because now you lose Bour and Dietrich.

 

If Stanton could really command that strike zone that would really make him dangerous. That's what makes Harper so lethal right now. If you don't pitch to him he'll just take the walk but if you make a mistake you get what happened last night.

 

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