CAbbFan

You need to open spaces on the 40 man prior to the winter meetings so that you have room to protect the new guys coming up. Otherwise you could lose them to the rule 5 draft.

Defense, without it there is a hugh toll it takes on any pitcher, both mentally and physically. Pitchers try to throw the perfect pitch, they throw extra pitches not allowing them to go deep in games, the batters see more pitches making it easier for them. Poor defense can not be minimized, if grossly effects all parts of the game.

I can't believe you guys don't include Hanley Ramirez, he is the worst defensive shortstop in baseball, he belongs in the outfield. If you want to improve the defense it should start with him.

Fredi has been really behind the curve when it comes to choosing his 8th inning guys. He stuck with Benitez too long in that role when it was clear he wasn't effective and then when he finally makes the switch it's to Miller, who has clearly lost the effectiveness he had earlier in the season (it could also be that the pressure of the 8th inning role doesn't suit him). Right now Gardner has been the most consistent performer out of the 'pen. Lindstrom would also be a better choice, IMO--or a Lindy/Tank combo, since Tank has been strong lately as well. But right now it is pretty plain that Miller is experience his regression to his true ability level after a great run earlier in this season. If you had posted this PRIOR to the 3-run HR I would have thought, "he may have a point". But you didnt. Miller Just finished pitching 9.1 scoreless innings and has picked up 3 holds since the start of Sept. First time someone has scored in his lat 10 outing. Yet he is regressing and has lost his abilities? wow

Based on the few wins we have had over the las several weeks, it appears it is more of a committee or situational or who has the freshes arm or .............................fill in the blank

Hanley is probably the worst defensive shortstop in the league. any talk about him being an MVP is laughable. He should be playing in the outfield this post is laughable Then continue to dream on while we play the worst baseball in the Major Leagues. It ain't Hanley's fault we suck He is one of the main guys, he is playing shortstop and he leads the team in errors. Its not all him but he is one to look at. Lastly, he is playing like he has mailed in the balance of the season. Terrible play over the last 2 weeks This entire discussion begins and ends with the pitchers. And I'm talking earned runs. Every time a position player does not make the play, every time a position player makes an error the pitcher has to pitch to additional hitters. Take last night's game. Miller had one out with a runner on first. A slow roller up the middle that was not played by Uggla or Hanley. Either make that play, and Miller striking out the next batter, no runs will score. Two innings later, after a home run, 2 errors created additional opportunities in which they scored. Defense must be held accountable, Pitchers are important but without plays behind them it is a mute point.

Hanley is probably the worst defensive shortstop in the league. any talk about him being an MVP is laughable. He should be playing in the outfield this post is laughable Then continue to dream on while we play the worst baseball in the Major Leagues. It ain't Hanley's fault we suck He is one of the main guys, he is playing shortstop and he leads the team in errors. Its not all him but he is one to look at. Lastly, he is playing like he has mailed in the balance of the season. Terrible play over the last 2 weeks

Putting runners on base whether by hits, walks or errors is always a bad thing and the Marlins have as this season rolls on been guilty of all three at almost unprecedented levels. This idea that defense is less important runs contrary to the way the game is played and for the statheads out there I'm surprised many of you haven't waded into this debate. You can't score if you don't get on base, that's baseball 101, and the Marlins have allowed too many opposing players to get on base in ways that good teams don't let happen. But I personally have a bigger concern and that is that the FO shut a number of these pitchers down this off-season (I think Pinto had pitched virtually non-stop (until his injury) for about nineteen months and Owens went directly to Winter Ball after his 2006 season. I really don't want to see the Jesus Delgado's (an example, just a name) in our minor league system flocking to winter ball so they come to camp with a dead arm as Pinto did. Ditto a number of guys on our 25 man roster. I know Miggy and AA will be playing in their respective countries and maybe other position players but for goodness sake let these young arms have a break even if the players feel otherwise. The reason so many of the players and pitchers go to winter ball is to make money. You can not raise a family on minor league salary. BTW, well said about defense

Hanley is probably the worst defensive shortstop in the league. any talk about him being an MVP is laughable. He should be playing in the outfield this post is laughable Then continue to dream on while we play the worst baseball in the Major Leagues.

my expectations are pretty high for next year define pretty high. . . . I expect our offense to be top 3 in the NL with much more consistency (then again, I expect Hermida to bat in the top 4... so we'll see) and obviously I expect our pitching to improve 10 fold only will improve that much if our fielding improved 10 fold Defense is substantially overrated, and an easy scapegoat. Not to say it's unimportant but the '96-'00 Yankees were not built around defensive standouts. The 2003-2007 Red Sox are just an ungodly offense and top heavy starting pitching. The "new" Mets are very much the same. You can't put a glove on a chair and expect to win, but I'd take the offensive upside of many of these players relative to their defensive ability to the bank every damn day. The only player who is not pulling his weight offensively such to warrant his defensive short-comings is Jacobs, and of course CF and C. Defense and pitching win championships more often than offense and more offense

Hanley is probably the worst defensive shortstop in the league. any talk about him being an MVP is laughable. He should be playing in the outfield

He doesn't have to be everyone's favorite player, but come on Alfredo Amezaga? Justin Miller? I understand they are "scrappy" or whatever nonsense you want to justify it with, but come on. "zomgzies he has tattoos ilu justin" They aren't they are one or two peoples favorite. Like I said before, sometimes you just see something in a player that you enjoy and connect with. And it wouldn't be so ridiculous if you weren't saying "these are our fans" because the matter of the fact is that if we make it into the playoffs next year you know that suddenly Miguel Cabrera will be EVERYONE's hero in the city of Miami. I love the implication that anyone who lists Cabrera as their favorite player is somehow less of a fan. I believe it was you who implied that if we do not vote your way we are not fans, You are the one that question our votes. No, I implied that if you pick Justin Miller over Cabrera, you are not very intelligent, baseball wise. You may be the biggest fan in the world. I was speaking more to the "If we make the playoffs, all these bandwagon fans who aren't really fans will be all like "lolz i love teh cabbiez" and that is dumb so we should like guys who aren't actually good at baseball, just to prove we are real fans". Hell, in that case Barone's my favorite player. Why isn't he listed? There are lots of reasons to pick Justin Miller as a favorite, including he is an animal out there, very aggressive, give me the ball type, never complains and gets the job done. Hell, give me a team of guys like that. I can pick things on all the guys that make it fun to root for them. Now if the question is what player do I want to build a team around, you might have an arguement. But favorite player is an emotional selection usually having little to do with their stats.

He doesn't have to be everyone's favorite player, but come on Alfredo Amezaga? Justin Miller? I understand they are "scrappy" or whatever nonsense you want to justify it with, but come on. "zomgzies he has tattoos ilu justin" They aren't they are one or two peoples favorite. Like I said before, sometimes you just see something in a player that you enjoy and connect with. And it wouldn't be so ridiculous if you weren't saying "these are our fans" because the matter of the fact is that if we make it into the playoffs next year you know that suddenly Miguel Cabrera will be EVERYONE's hero in the city of Miami. I love the implication that anyone who lists Cabrera as their favorite player is somehow less of a fan. I believe it was you who implied that if we do not vote your way we are not fans, You are the one that question our votes.

Wow, Alfredo Amezaga, Jason Wood, Justin Miller, and Sergio Mitre have as many votes as Cabrera. These are our fans. Of course, then there are fans like you that do nothing but wait for a player to fail so you can say I told you so. True none of these guys have reached star power yet, but many of us like to root for the underdog and believe that many players only need the right atmosphere to suceed

I'm really worried that Justin Miller is going to get the 8th and just flame out miserably... He'll start regressing soon. But you have to ride him while he's hot. He has been given 36 chances to "regress" yet it has not happened. How many chances does he need before you feel he is a good pitcher? 40? 50? next year? His history was in the American League on a very bad Toronto Team in a very tough division at a different position (starter). Hard to compare to what he is doing now. I am not saying I expect him to keep his ERA at 1.96, or his BAA at 200 but I am saying he has proved he is an above average bullpen pitcher. yea, I need more than a year to make a guy a proven stud in my book I did not call him a stud either, just an above average bullpen pitcher. It takes several years to reach the "stud status". I just don't see him regressing as you say to his old stats.

I'm really worried that Justin Miller is going to get the 8th and just flame out miserably... He'll start regressing soon. But you have to ride him while he's hot. He has been given 36 chances to "regress" yet it has not happened. How many chances does he need before you feel he is a good pitcher? 40? 50? next year? His history was in the American League on a very bad Toronto Team in a very tough division at a different position (starter). Hard to compare to what he is doing now. I am not saying I expect him to keep his ERA at 1.96, or his BAA at 200 but I am saying he has proved he is an above average bullpen pitcher.

As far as I'm concerned, we are playing for next season (barring this team doing a complete 180) I have nothing against Armando Benitez, and if we were legitimately in the race, I would want him in the 8th inning.... since we aren't I would either like to see Justin Miller get more meaningful innings (even though he has come in alot in tight spots) and see if we can get his trade value to peak sometime soon if not Miller, then I would like to see Tank or Lindstrom or Pinto or KMart or one of the young guys try and establish themselves as the 8th inning guy and get that confidence heading into 2008 Not sure I understand why you would want to trade our best reliever. Wouldn't you want to keep him for next year? I like Miller Time alot, but he is having a huuuuuge fluke season. I mean he was absolutely terrible in his 2 previous stints in the league (I know it's 3, but one was just 2.3ip) And it's not like he was all that amazing in the minor leagues either. His pervious stints in the majors was mostly as a starter on bad Toronto teams and I disagree about his minor league stats. His Stats at Syracuse was under 3 and his stats at Sacramento (as a starter) was just over 4 in a hitters park in a hitters league. His lifetime ERA in the minors is less that 3.5 and he was an allstar twice. In the majors he has always shown the ability to get the strikeout and it was his walks that got him in trouble. I think changing him to a full time reliver plays to his strength. Meh... everyone in the majors has an ERA better than 3.5 in the minors. If we are able to get something remotely cool for him, he needs to be sent out. I give him about a 10% chance to have even close to this good a season next year. Trade him and I give him a 75% chance he will be a save leader next year. Only time will tell, he certainly is not the first player to turn his career around. Once again I say he is playing a differant role than the past, so I think its for real.

As far as I'm concerned, we are playing for next season (barring this team doing a complete 180) I have nothing against Armando Benitez, and if we were legitimately in the race, I would want him in the 8th inning.... since we aren't I would either like to see Justin Miller get more meaningful innings (even though he has come in alot in tight spots) and see if we can get his trade value to peak sometime soon if not Miller, then I would like to see Tank or Lindstrom or Pinto or KMart or one of the young guys try and establish themselves as the 8th inning guy and get that confidence heading into 2008 Not sure I understand why you would want to trade our best reliever. Wouldn't you want to keep him for next year? I like Miller Time alot, but he is having a huuuuuge fluke season. I mean he was absolutely terrible in his 2 previous stints in the league (I know it's 3, but one was just 2.3ip) And it's not like he was all that amazing in the minor leagues either. His pervious stints in the majors was mostly as a starter on bad Toronto teams and I disagree about his minor league stats. His Stats at Syracuse was under 3 and his stats at Sacramento (as a starter) was just over 4 in a hitters park in a hitters league. His lifetime ERA in the minors is less that 3.5 and he was an allstar twice. In the majors he has always shown the ability to get the strikeout and it was his walks that got him in trouble. I think changing him to a full time reliver plays to his strength.

As far as I'm concerned, we are playing for next season (barring this team doing a complete 180) I have nothing against Armando Benitez, and if we were legitimately in the race, I would want him in the 8th inning.... since we aren't I would either like to see Justin Miller get more meaningful innings (even though he has come in alot in tight spots) and see if we can get his trade value to peak sometime soon if not Miller, then I would like to see Tank or Lindstrom or Pinto or KMart or one of the young guys try and establish themselves as the 8th inning guy and get that confidence heading into 2008 Not sure I understand why you would want to trade our best reliever. Wouldn't you want to keep him for next year?

Some mini thoughts... Nice to see our offense coming through. Olsen with a great outing this afternoon. Other than the 7th inning - he was in control. 10 strike outs and 5 in a row to start the game. Olsen really have shaped up since Fredi pulled him. Nice to see our "other" guys doing the job (Linden, Treanor and Carroll). Carroll has looked better and better each game. Bullpen was alittle shakey today but they didnt blow the lead. Gregg with a nice comeback from last night. SUPERMAN! Hanley with 100 hits. Awesome. Does anyone have a video or picture of the Treanor car wash? If yes, can you post it . How huge was Miller getting the last out with runners at 2nd and 3rd in the 7th.

They say that the Marlin's field is a pitchers park. The reason being the wide open outfields, however this only holds up if you have the outfielders that can cover the ground. Our home field advantage is nutralized because our outfielders have limited range and questionable gloves. Perhaps this is one of the main reasons they struggle at home. You can say what you want about their offense, but pitching and defense wins championships.

That's my whole point. This is not a stock that you are buying or a car that you are buying. This is a sport, a game. Something that you should just sit back and enjoy and be able to cheer for you favorite players. Baseball is not about all of those sabr numbers for most fans. Should Beinfest look at every stat when making a trade, or even drafting a player? Yes, that is his job. I'm just looking at it from a fans point of view. And don't tell other people how to enjoy a game. The argument was never about how to enjoy watching the game. It actually started by disputing which stat conveys who is a better hitter. Bob, I would say that batting average is better at telling "whether someone is good at hitting baseballs," contrary to what the article you referenced says. It does not, however, give an accurate representation of how valuable or productive a hitter is. There is a lot more to being a productive hitter than just batting average. I think that's an important distinction to make. I actually think something like contact rate is a better way of telling you whether someone is good at hitting baseballs. Batting average is only good at telling you "how lucky a player is that the balls they happen to put into play happen to fall in at a certain ratio". As for the guy who said that you can't use the stats if you don't know how they are calculated, thats bulls***. I don't know how a car works, does that mean I can't use one? There are a few scouts left who don't use stats, and they only look at what they see, but they are being phased out, and not slowly. Why? Because it isn't as effective a way to look at player's ability and worth. If you don't look at stats, Reggie Abercrombie looks like a ball player, doesn't he? If you don't look at stats, Kevin Youkilis doesn't really look like a good player. Hey, Cabbfan, don't even get me started on win loss record for pitchers. Thats far worse than any other stat. You won't get an arguement from me there, my point was the average fan does look at W/L and gage a players value from their that limited stat. Tank is a perfect example 4-1, yet he has mostly struggled this year.

I am often ammused by posters who think they know what is important to a player, manager, scout or who ever they are taking about. Yet they do know know any players, they have not even talked to any, yet they act like they they are the expert. Players are interested in the same stats fans are, the ones they know the fans watch, ERA, BA, W/L, E. The simple ones, those are the stats that make them hero's in the fans eyes

That's a good point. But ERA is a much better judge of talent. :lol I will give you credit in the fact you have been persistent in getting your views out there today. Sadly, they are for the most part completely wrong and you come across as having absolutely no clue what you are talking about. I am done, your ignorance has baffled even me. I'm glad you're done. I think a few problems people have with using ERA to judge talent is that: 1) Official scorers have quite a bit of leeway as for what to call an error or not, and it often changes from scorer-to-scorer, so earned runs can sometimes be subjective and; 2) For relievers especially, if you exit the game with runners on base and someone else gives up hits to bring them in, you get charged with giving up runs, when all you did was put them on base. That raises your ERA too. Those are the two big ERA problems I can think of now, and two reasons some may have a problem with using the stat as a measuring stick. Those are reasonable arguements which supports my first post. Too understand a pitchers total value you must look at all the stats to make a fair judgement of their potential. ERA, WHIP, BAA, are probably weighted more than IR/IRS or K/BB or splits, but none the less still an indication of their value

His ERA wasnt over 6, or even over 5 last year. It was in the mid 4s. But once again, his peripheral stats greatly overshadow ERA. The point was not that his ERA was over 5 or 6. Your arguement was that ERA was not that important. The point is ERA is an important measure of the success of a pitcher, it is what MLB, ESPN, Fox all use to rate pitchers. I agree with you that he has other stats which look good, yet once again I ask are any of those stats better than what we have now for the role he would be placed in? who cares what ESPN and FOX think? Then I can assume you watch or read neither Or because there are only so many places to watch baseball. It doesn't mean ESPN or FOX or whoever has or hasn't a clue. Lets not forget, this is an arguement about Stats, either their stats are revelant or not, which are you saying now?