Since payroll is going to be cut,

 

Link please?

 

 

You really think it's going to stay at 65 million?

I don't know. You are stating it is a given that payroll is going down, which it is incorrect to assume at this point.

Since payroll is going to be cut,

 

Link please?

 

 

You really think it's going to stay at 65 million?

I don't know. You are stating it is a given that payroll is going down, which it is incorrect to assume at this point.

This article says it might stay at 66 mill or bring it down.

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-mar...la-sports-front

Since payroll is going to be cut,

 

Link please?

 

 

You really think it's going to stay at 65 million?

I don't know. You are stating it is a given that payroll is going down, which it is incorrect to assume at this point.

 

Ok, it is my belief that the payroll will take a moderate hit. Better?

 

I think Loria, after losing 20 million dollars the last few years coupled with poor attendance, will trim the payroll a bit.

With all the rookies and young players that will be getting chances at roster spots AND are still under $1 million(alot still under $5), which includes Miggy for this season(unless they give him a long term deal), payroll might go down and not really mean a change to the team. And rferry, you can disagree but no need to tell me to shut up. But if thats the way your going to go, I think signing Kevin Brown, for any amount of money, and Sammy Sosa, for any amount of money, would be incredibly stupid. Brown couldn't outpitch a peewee team at this point in his career, and we dont need the negative publicity that Sosa would bring.

I told you to shut up because I was frustrated over seeing you continually post stupid things.

 

And Sosa and Brown were not my suggestions. Those have been posted in other threads and more will come later. These are my predictions of what I think the current front office may prefer and able to accomplish. That was you know the point of the thread. If you had a middle schooler's reading comprehension you would have known that.

1B: Carlos Delgado

2B: Luis Castillo

3B: Mike Lowell (Hopefully he will have his stuff back next year)

SS: Alex Gonzalez (I feel some good promise, Alex is going for the Full surgery this time so he might be at 100)

LF: Miguel Cabrera

CF: Juan Pierre

RF: Jeromy Hemida

I dont know why thinking that we will start someone other than Beckett or Willis is stupid, espicially since we are on the road.

I dont know why thinking that we will start someone other than Beckett or Willis is stupid, espicially since we are on the road.

 

 

Because starting a rookie on the road is very stupid, regardless of how the rotation sets up at home. The Mets didn't do that with Pedro this year, the Marlins won't start Olsen next year on opening day.

industriales campeon wrote: IDK how people think anyone is going to take Lowell and Pierre. I still believe in giving Lowell a shot at redeeming himself. If he stinks again we can trade him way before the deadline and that's it. But Pierre? You gotta be crazy if you trade him, that is just preposterous

 

What?? How are you gonna trade Lowell after a bad half season in 2006 if you say nobody will take him now? Your comment makes no sense.

 

Pierre is probably the worst starting CF in MLB, and you want to keep him? Do you have any facts to back up your opininon, or is it just fun to ask Loria to waste his money on an unproductive player because you "like" him? Just like your wanting to give Lowell (probably the worst starting 3B in MLB)"a shot?"

 

Industrialescampeon, you are definitely NOT a candidate for GM.

Hold your horses buddy, Pierre is one of the worst CF in the game? What the hell are you on? The guy had a below average season and you say he is one of the worst CF? I'm not even going to touch on that anymore cuz it is a waste of time to attempt to prove you wrong. Talking about Lowell, idk how many teams are going to be willing to take him now. He cannot do any worse than he did this year, and if it is at the beginning of the season some teams might actually think that they can turn him around. And I didn't say I liked Lowell, I said that I believed in giving him a shot to redeem himself next season. That said, I think you are definitely NOT a candidate to serve as advisor for any GM, not even for industrialescampeon.

CF Juan Pierre

2B Luis Castillo

3B Miguel Cabrera

1B Carlos Delgado

RF Jeremy Hermida

C Paul LoDuca

LF Chris Aguila

SS Alex Gonzalez

P Dontrelle Willis

 

The FO seems hell bent on moving Lowell. I'll bet they will find a taker. (Perhaps Willingham and Olsen will sweeten the pot). If they trade Lowell I would hope they would put the $$$ into a #3 pitcher and a closer. Hermida is definitely ready to start, and so is Aguila. I don't believe the FO will be willing to give Conine another $3M and will let him go. I'm a bit up in the air about Alex, but believe it's possible the FO signs him for another 2 years. After all, that's the term he accepted last time. Andino needs more seasoning in the minors.

 

 

I agree with everything except putting Olsen and Willingham with Lowell to sweeten the pot...Willingham yes, Olsen no. Despite what all the contradictory people say on here("Willingham is a 27 year old minor leaguer what team will want him" one second, "Willingham is the answer to all our problems and very valueable to our team" the next), Willy could attract offers along with Lowell from a team in need of a DH. But Olsen should stay.

 

Willingham has more value to the Marlins as a player than he does as a trade chip. If he hadn't gotten injured, and finished the year the way he started (hammering in the minors) then, yeah, a team would take a chance on him, but he hasn't shined at the major league level, and he is in his late 20's.

 

I've said many times, if it means we get out completely from under Lowell's deal, a team could take their pick of one of our three rookies: Vargas, Olsen or Johnson.

 

Agreed. We have to give something worthwhile for a team to take Lowell's contract. I was responding to the idea of packaging Lowell with Castillo. :thumbdown I'd rather see us give up two MLB ready players if that's what it takes. We have other options for Willingham who may have a solid bat, but doesn't have a place on the field. Of the 3 upcoming pitchers, I'd rather keep Vargas and Johnson, although admitting Olsen will be a good #4-5 starter. The FO made a mistake keeping Lowell, and now they are going to have to pay to get out from under his contract. I don't believe giving up one young pitching prospect will be enough.

 

 

I dont know why thinking that we will start someone other than Beckett or Willis is stupid, espicially since we are on the road.

 

 

Because starting a rookie on the road is very stupid, regardless of how the rotation sets up at home. The Mets didn't do that with Pedro this year, the Marlins won't start Olsen next year on opening day.

 

It could be a moot point anyway as Olsen may not be in the rotation anyway. Both Vargas and Johnson have higher ceilings.

Both Vargas and Johnson have higher ceilings.

 

:blink:

 

since when? Olsen was our best pitching prospect and still is as far as I'm concerned. Olsen has the potential to be an ace. The other two don't.

Both Vargas and Johnson have higher ceilings.

 

:blink:

 

since when? Olsen was our best pitching prospect and still is as far as I'm concerned. Olsen has the potential to be an ace. The other two don't.

What about Allison?

Vargas and Johnson are awesome, but I dont think either one are as good as Olsen, or have a higher ceiling than Olsen. Olsen shined in every start except his start at Philadelphia, where all of our pitchers got slapped around this year...I'd rank our top 3 pitching prospects:

Olsen

Vargas

Johnson

He wasn't here at the end like the other two because he got hurt. And he was/still is our top pitching prospects, he was our #2 prospect right behind Hermida, and I say if it comes down to Olsen/Johnson instead of both, Olsen would take the rotation spot.

Both Vargas and Johnson have higher ceilings.

 

:blink:

 

since when? Olsen was our best pitching prospect and still is as far as I'm concerned. Olsen has the potential to be an ace. The other two don't.

What about Allison?

 

:lol

 

Well, unless half-way houses have high ceilings...

CantCatchMe,

 

You do realize that all those players that you compared Pierre to are sluggers, with the exception of Taveras, who Pierre has both a higher OBP, and SLG% (Pierre: .326, .354 to Taveras: .325, .341) according to the numbers you list, and this is with Taveras a right handed hitter in Houston's little-league field...not to mention, Pierre's stolen base numbers dwarf Taveras'. So next time you put Taveras on a pedistal, and call Pierre "terrible," at least check your facts.

 

And I'm calling BS on your numbers for Anaheim, Steve Finley's OBP was not .352, it was .271 and he slugged .374, not .397, and he stole 8 bases, not 62...plus he hit .222. And since you took it upon yourself to say that Roberts is much better than Pierre, he slugged .428, not .458, and this is with him having a year that's substantially above his career averages, and I recal you using the word "fluke" when describing Pierre, and this is with him having a career average of .305 with this below average year factored in there. I mean, if hitting .320 when your career average is above .300, what's slugging .428 when you're slugging percentage is .364? Expected?

 

 

How many incorrect things can be in one post? You might have broken a record.

 

What do you mean "they are sluggers." The point is they are good or great defensive centerfielders who make a solid contribution on offense, unlike JP. WTF is your point? Or don't you realize you just proved mine?

 

As to Taveras, the kid's a rookie, not a player in his prime. Personally, I don't like his game so much, and he is Houston's Pierre, the reason they are the worst hitting team in the post season. So, again, you have proved my point.

 

As to Finley, I was considering Figgins as the CF, based upon this item from their local paper:

 

"The patience with Steve Finley has run out.

 

The struggling outfielder was replaced by Chone Figgins in center field Tuesday in a move that likely will remain in place for the final month of the season. Finley was batting .215 with just nine home runs and 48 RBIs.

 

"We have to get production," Scioscia said. "That's basically it. "

 

Since Finley, a guy who has had trouble holding on to his position even after a stellar career has ALMOST IDENTICAL OBP + SLG to Pierre and was benched for "lack of production" you have again proved the point. Pierre's level of production is insufficient to justify a starting position in MLB.

 

Sorry about the typo on Roberts but it doesn't affect the point. I agree he's a journeyman performing above his lifetime averages, but we're not talking about trading for him so whether his numbers this year were "expected" is irrelevant. We're talking about what it takes to justify a starting position as an MLB CF. Roberts has an OBP + SLG 100 points higher than JP! That is what it takes, that is what we need, and that's something JP will NEVER deliver. He had 2 "fluke" years, and now has reverted to what he was in Colorado. For you to defend him as a player we would want on our team, at his salary ($3.7 million this year) shows an abyssmal ignorance of the game. Pierre's production can be replaced at a much cheaper price.

 

Pierre isn't "terrible," but he is average or below average and is grossly overpaid for his production.

CantCatchMe,

 

You do realize that all those players that you compared Pierre to are sluggers, with the exception of Taveras, who Pierre has both a higher OBP, and SLG% (Pierre: .326, .354 to Taveras: .325, .341) according to the numbers you list, and this is with Taveras a right handed hitter in Houston's little-league field...not to mention, Pierre's stolen base numbers dwarf Taveras'. So next time you put Taveras on a pedistal, and call Pierre "terrible," at least check your facts.

 

And I'm calling BS on your numbers for Anaheim, Steve Finley's OBP was not .352, it was .271 and he slugged .374, not .397, and he stole 8 bases, not 62...plus he hit .222. And since you took it upon yourself to say that Roberts is much better than Pierre, he slugged .428, not .458, and this is with him having a year that's substantially above his career averages, and I recal you using the word "fluke" when describing Pierre, and this is with him having a career average of .305 with this below average year factored in there. I mean, if hitting .320 when your career average is above .300, what's slugging .428 when you're slugging percentage is .364? Expected?

 

 

How many incorrect things can be in one post? You might have broken a record.

 

What do you mean "they are sluggers." The point is they are good or great defensive centerfielders who make a solid contribution on offense, unlike JP. WTF is your point? Or don't you realize you just proved mine?

 

 

If your point is based on having slugging percentage as 50% of your numerical backing when quantifying what makes a player worth-while, the difference between a singles hitter and a homerun hitter is absolutely huge.

 

Sorry, if you don't realize that, you're a moron, plain and simple.

 

Oh, and who's starting in center tonight for the Angels? Sure doesn't look like Chone Figgins to me.

CantCatchMe,

 

You do realize that all those players that you compared Pierre to are sluggers, with the exception of Taveras, who Pierre has both a higher OBP, and SLG% (Pierre: .326, .354 to Taveras: .325, .341) according to the numbers you list, and this is with Taveras a right handed hitter in Houston's little-league field...not to mention, Pierre's stolen base numbers dwarf Taveras'. So next time you put Taveras on a pedistal, and call Pierre "terrible," at least check your facts.

 

And I'm calling BS on your numbers for Anaheim, Steve Finley's OBP was not .352, it was .271 and he slugged .374, not .397, and he stole 8 bases, not 62...plus he hit .222. And since you took it upon yourself to say that Roberts is much better than Pierre, he slugged .428, not .458, and this is with him having a year that's substantially above his career averages, and I recal you using the word "fluke" when describing Pierre, and this is with him having a career average of .305 with this below average year factored in there. I mean, if hitting .320 when your career average is above .300, what's slugging .428 when you're slugging percentage is .364? Expected?

 

 

How many incorrect things can be in one post? You might have broken a record.

 

What do you mean "they are sluggers." The point is they are good or great defensive centerfielders who make a solid contribution on offense, unlike JP. WTF is your point? Or don't you realize you just proved mine?

 

As to Taveras, the kid's a rookie, not a player in his prime. Personally, I don't like his game so much, and he is Houston's Pierre, the reason they are the worst hitting team in the post season. So, again, you have proved my point.

 

As to Finley, I was considering Figgins as the CF, based upon this item from their local paper:

 

"The patience with Steve Finley has run out.

 

The struggling outfielder was replaced by Chone Figgins in center field Tuesday in a move that likely will remain in place for the final month of the season. Finley was batting .215 with just nine home runs and 48 RBIs.

 

"We have to get production," Scioscia said. "That's basically it. "

 

Since Finley, a guy who has had trouble holding on to his position even after a stellar career has ALMOST IDENTICAL OBP + SLG to Pierre and was benched for "lack of production" you have again proved the point. Pierre's level of production is insufficient to justify a starting position in MLB.

 

Sorry about the typo on Roberts but it doesn't affect the point. I agree he's a journeyman performing above his lifetime averages, but we're not talking about trading for him so whether his numbers this year were "expected" is irrelevant. We're talking about what it takes to justify a starting position as an MLB CF. Roberts has an OBP + SLG 100 points higher than JP! That is what it takes, that is what we need, and that's something JP will NEVER deliver. He had 2 "fluke" years, and now has reverted to what he was in Colorado. For you to defend him as a player we would want on our team, at his salary ($3.7 million this year) shows an abyssmal ignorance of the game. Pierre's production can be replaced at a much cheaper price.

 

Pierre isn't "terrible," but he is average or below average and is grossly overpaid for his production.

He batted over 300 twice in Colorado; is it possible to have 4 fluke seasons? :plain

My Opening Day Roster:

 

C- LoDuca, Treanor sub

1- Conine

2- Castillo

SS-Gonzo

3- Cabrera

RF- Hermida

CF- Pierre

LF- TBD

Pitchers- Beckett, Willis, Vargas, Johnson, TBD

Bullpen- Bump, Messenger, Resop..everybody else new

 

.

.The above payroll is roughly 40M.

Leaves plenty of room for exciting pick ups to help our offense(see LF), bench, and bullpen, and an exciting veteran starting pitcher

Pierre isn't "terrible," but he is average or below average and is grossly overpaid for his production.

 

That sums it up nicely. He's an exciting player whose contributions are less than what meets the eye/mind so expect some backlash.

Both Vargas and Johnson have higher ceilings.

 

:blink:

 

since when? Olsen was our best pitching prospect and still is as far as I'm concerned. Olsen has the potential to be an ace. The other two don't.

What about Allison?

 

:lol

 

Well, unless half-way houses have high ceilings...

:lol :lol

 

thats so bad

Pierre isn't "terrible," but he is average or below average and is grossly overpaid for his production.

 

That sums it up nicely. He's an exciting player whose contributions are less than what meets the eye/mind so expect some backlash.

 

Pierre is catching quite a bit of flack for his poor BA. If you look at runs scored and RBIs you'll see his offensive production in 2005 was about the same as in 2003 and 2004.

Pierre isn't "terrible," but he is average or below average and is grossly overpaid for his production.

 

That sums it up nicely. He's an exciting player whose contributions are less than what meets the eye/mind so expect some backlash.

 

Pierre is catching quite a bit of flack for his poor BA. If you look at runs scored and RBIs you'll see his offensive production in 2005 was about the same as in 2003 and 2004.

 

And he had his best year stealing percentage wise in his three years here.

 

As for his "terrible" defense, he commited four errors. Everyone puts Encarnacion's outfield defense on such a pedistal, and he commited four errors this year.

 

I'd trade Pierre if the offer was right, but I don't think he deserves neither the amount of credit he gets, nor the amount of criticism...this whole debate simply stemmed from what I felt to be uninformed, erroneous comments and half-truths.

More his poor on base percentage.

 

Runs and RBIs are too dependent on teammates to be given great consideration. FWIW, Pierre has a lower RBI/RBI Opportunity this year than in either 2003 and 2004. (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/rbi_opps2005.php - change the year in the url)

 

And seeing as his stolen base or power totals have not risen, I don't think you can credit him for holding steady in runs scored. That's probably Luiy, Cabrera and Delgado hitting him around the bases few times he got on base.

My Opening Day Roster:

 

C- LoDuca, Treanor sub

1- Conine

2- Castillo

SS-Gonzo

3- Cabrera

RF- Hermida

CF- Pierre

LF- TBD

Pitchers- Beckett, Willis, Vargas, Johnson, TBD

Bullpen- Bump, Messenger, Resop..everybody else new

 

.

.The above payroll is roughly 40M.

Leaves plenty of room for exciting pick ups to help our offense(see LF), bench, and bullpen, and an exciting veteran starting pitcher

 

 

:blink: :blink: :blink:

 

No Delgado? You gotta be out of your mind. :plain

 

 

More his poor on base percentage.

 

Runs and RBIs are too dependent on teammates to be given great consideration. FWIW, Pierre has a lower RBI/RBI Opportunity this year than in either 2003 and 2004. (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/rbi_opps2005.php - change the year in the url)

 

And seeing as his stolen base or power totals have not risen, I don't think you can credit him for holding steady in runs scored. That's probably Luiy, Cabrera and Delgado hitting him around the bases few times he got on base.

 

 

 

That's his main problem. He just needs to get on at a much higher rate... Luis Castillo's rate. He can get on base at a .390 clip, but only if he hits like .335, which is hard to do. He needs to learn how to take walks.

2006 Opening Day Lineup

 

1. Luis

2. Hermida

3. Cabs

4. Delgado

5. Lo Duca

6. Willingham

7. JP

8. AGon

9. Willis

 

My Dream Opening Day Lineup

 

1. Luis

2. Hermida

3. Cabs

4. Delgado

5. Manny

6. JP

7. LoDuca

8. AGon

9. Willis