The Penny trade wasn't bad at the time. Penny became a premier pitcher after the trade. Lo Duca gave us a solid couple years.

Castillo, Lee, Penny, Delgado (arguably both ends) the Pudge fiasco, Julio, and sitting on his hands re: centerfield all rank substantially higher on his list of quickly recalled miscues.

 

both ends of the Delgado deal -- huh? He was a free agent pickup who played very well for a year for not much $$. Plus, we were able to get some prospects for him.

 

Don't see how the "first" end of the Delgado deal was such a bad move for Beinfest.

 

How about the deals Beinfest didn't make; e.g. B.J. Upton for Olsen; Scott Maine (when he was with Balt.), Garrett Olsen and others for A.J. (whom we lost without any compensation).

 

It was a bad move on the coming in to backload a contract so absurdly as to compromise any negotiating leverage you have, so even an elite player like Carlos was, coming off an elite year like Carlos was, brings only Mike Jacobs and Yusmeiro Petit in return with cash going the other way.

It was in fact, when you consider the situation he and the team was in, it was one of his best. He got star power for the stadium push and a great bat for a contending team for essentially nothing, and when the plan did not pan out, he was able to adjust and get a MLB-ready 1st baseman (granted, a below-average 1B) and a top pitching prospect. That is the type of move good GMs make. It's the type of moves Schuerholz and Jocketty are known for making.

 

P.S. Delgado's 2007 campaign may or may not be evidence of his decline, but that's another reason why Beinfest made a good decision to acquire and trade him when he did. Few players over 33 compile numbers comparable of their late 20s and early 30s.

Castillo, Lee, Penny, Delgado (arguably both ends) the Pudge fiasco, Julio, and sitting on his hands re: centerfield all rank substantially higher on his list of quickly recalled miscues.

 

both ends of the Delgado deal -- huh? He was a free agent pickup who played very well for a year for not much $$. Plus, we were able to get some prospects for him.

 

Don't see how the "first" end of the Delgado deal was such a bad move for Beinfest.

 

How about the deals Beinfest didn't make; e.g. B.J. Upton for Olsen; Scott Maine (when he was with Balt.), Garrett Olsen and others for A.J. (whom we lost without any compensation).

 

It was a bad move on the coming in to backload a contract so absurdly as to compromise any negotiating leverage you have, so even an elite player like Carlos was, coming off an elite year like Carlos was, brings only Mike Jacobs and Yusmeiro Petit in return with cash going the other way.

It was in fact, when you consider the situation he and the team was in, it was one of his best. He got star power for the stadium push and a great bat for a contending team for essentially nothing, and when the plan did not pan out, he was able to adjust and get a MLB-ready 1st baseman (granted, a below-average 1B) and a top pitching prospect. That is the type of move good GMs make. It's the type of moves Schuerholz and Jocketty are known for making.

 

In the end, Schuerholz and Ryan and any other good GM ends up holding the good pitching prospect and dealing the below average position player, not the other way around...

The Penny trade wasn't bad at the time. Penny became a premier pitcher after the trade. Lo Duca gave us a solid couple years.

The ONLY reason the Penny deal wasn't bad at the time is because Penny soon became injured. But it's impossible to say he would have injured himself if he stayed with the Marlins. LoDuca, Encarnacion and that 5th starter spot down the stretch hurt our playoff chances in 2005. And did not play up to their contracts in 2006.

I still feel the DLee trade was the worst

Don't know why. DLee turned into a beast, but it's my understanding that DLee (or someone else in his place) was expected to be nontendered. In return, we got a league-average first baseman's performance in Choi for the 1st half.

Castillo, Lee, Penny, Delgado (arguably both ends) the Pudge fiasco, Julio, and sitting on his hands re: centerfield all rank substantially higher on his list of quickly recalled miscues.

 

both ends of the Delgado deal -- huh? He was a free agent pickup who played very well for a year for not much $$. Plus, we were able to get some prospects for him.

 

Don't see how the "first" end of the Delgado deal was such a bad move for Beinfest.

 

How about the deals Beinfest didn't make; e.g. B.J. Upton for Olsen; Scott Maine (when he was with Balt.), Garrett Olsen and others for A.J. (whom we lost without any compensation).

 

It was a bad move on the coming in to backload a contract so absurdly as to compromise any negotiating leverage you have, so even an elite player like Carlos was, coming off an elite year like Carlos was, brings only Mike Jacobs and Yusmeiro Petit in return with cash going the other way.

It was in fact, when you consider the situation he and the team was in, it was one of his best. He got star power for the stadium push and a great bat for a contending team for essentially nothing, and when the plan did not pan out, he was able to adjust and get a MLB-ready 1st baseman (granted, a below-average 1B) and a top pitching prospect. That is the type of move good GMs make. It's the type of moves Schuerholz and Jocketty are known for making.

 

In the end, Schuerholz and Ryan and any other good GM ends up holding the good pitching prospect and dealing the below average position player, not the other way around...

Complain about the Petit deal then. Because like Delgado's 2007 season, what Petit was traded for should have no impact on the evaluation of the Delgado trade.

Not to continue this debate, but it seems to me that people are forgetting the goal, after the stadium deal was destroyed by Joe Arriola, was payroll reduction and to that end $$$ was saved by jettisoning Delgado with little or no loss in productivity, certainly this season. Having Delgado last season would have been a waste of $$$, the team wasn't going to the playoffs with or without him. Between a decent season last year from Helms and Jacobs/Boone this season while some would argue we didn't get enough for Delgado, net we saved roughly $30 million and got and paid Jacobs, ultimately Kim, Helms and Boone.

Not to continue this debate, but it seems to me that people are forgetting the goal, after the stadium deal was destroyed by Joe Arriola, was payroll reduction and to that end $$$ was saved by jettisoning Delgado with little or no loss in productivity, certainly this season. Having Delgado last season would have been a waste of $$$, the team wasn't going to the playoffs with or without him. Between a decent season last year from Helms and Jacobs/Boone this season while some would argue we didn't get enough for Delgado, net we saved roughly $30 million and got and paid Jacobs, ultimately Kim, Helms and Boone.

 

Couldn't disagree anymore.

 

Last year's team was one big bat away from a very deep playoff run. Last year's Met team was sorely average if you take Delgado off of it. Addition by subtraction would have been huge as it would have just kept the Mets a very good but not great team. I don't think it's all that surprising that their offense has been rather pedestrian in a down year from Delgado. Beltran has come crashing back to Earth too.

 

Delgado's value to last year's team should not be overstated. He decided the division.

Well, I certainly agree that with Delgado we would have been a LOT better, I don't know about the playoffs. Wasn't the reason we fell out was because our pitching fell back down to earth? I could be wrong and I'm far to lazy to check the box scores but that's what I remember.

Of course you disagree...but that's you.

 

Take a look at Helms/Jacobs combined numbers for 2006 and you'll be every surprised how they stack up against Delgado, not equal but actually better in some stats, not so in others. Delgado had 38 HRs for example, combined Helms/Jacobs 30. It's reasonably easy to do the math since Helms played most games at first and E*S*PN has the splits.

 

But just keep disagreeing, it's so cute. You just make stuff up and state it as fact. I know it frustrates you when people actually look up stuff you say. Both his average and OBP were the lowest (in 2006) in almost a decade, only once since 1997 was his OPS+ been lower, his SLG was the third lowest since 1997.

 

He no more decided the division than the sun rises in the west. And for the record his line for September - 253 .326 .458 .784, with 4 home runs, hardly earth-shattering.

Of course you disagree...but that's you.

 

Take a look at Helms/Jacobs combined numbers for 2006 and you'll be every surprised how they stack up against Delgado, not equal but actually better in some stats, not so in others. Delgado had 38 HRs for example, combined Helms/Jacobs 30. It's reasonably easy to do the math since Helms played most games at first and E*S*PN has the splits.

 

But just keep disagreeing, it's so cute. You just make stuff up and state it as fact. I know it frustrates you when people actually look up stuff you say. Both his average and OBP were the lowest (in 2006) in almost a decade, only once since 1997 was his OPS+ been lower, his SLG was the third lowest since 1997.

 

He no more decided the division than the sun rises in the west. And for the record his line for September - 253 .326 .458 .784, with 4 home runs, hardly earth-shattering.

 

See, that'd be great if Helms and Jacobs played in a platoon at first base, but they didn't Jacobs played when his health allowed, Helms played whenever we needed a bat off the bench. It wasn't as if it was a true platoon. We tried getting Jake in there as much as possible (469 AB's) and that's fine, that was the right thing to do. To go back and suggest that two players production exceeded the production of one player, well, I'd sure hope so. The thing is, that Marlins 2006 team should have had Delgado and Helms, and that'd have been peach keen.

 

Jacobs and Helms combined for 709 AB's and 276 games. I'd sure as hell hope that'd outproduce a single player with 524 AB's in 144 games.

 

Here's a fun stat, Carlos Delgado's OPS+ in 2006: 134. Jacobs: 106.

 

Details, details...

Of course you disagree...but that's you.

 

Take a look at Helms/Jacobs combined numbers for 2006 and you'll be every surprised how they stack up against Delgado, not equal but actually better in some stats, not so in others. Delgado had 38 HRs for example, combined Helms/Jacobs 30. It's reasonably easy to do the math since Helms played most games at first and E*S*PN has the splits.

 

But just keep disagreeing, it's so cute. You just make stuff up and state it as fact. I know it frustrates you when people actually look up stuff you say. Both his average and OBP were the lowest (in 2006) in almost a decade, only once since 1997 was his OPS+ been lower, his SLG was the third lowest since 1997.

 

He no more decided the division than the sun rises in the west. And for the record his line for September - 253 .326 .458 .784, with 4 home runs, hardly earth-shattering.

 

See, that'd be great if Helms and Jacobs played in a platoon at first base, but they didn't Jacobs played when his health allowed, Helms played whenever we needed a bat off the bench. It wasn't as if it was a true platoon. We tried getting Jake in there as much as possible (469 AB's) and that's fine, that was the right thing to do. To go back and suggest that two players production exceeded the production of one player, well, I'd sure hope so. The thing is, that Marlins 2006 team should have had Delgado and Helms, and that'd have been peach keen.

 

Jacobs and Helms combined for 709 AB's and 276 games. I'd sure as hell hope that'd outproduce a single player with 524 AB's in 144 games.

 

Here's a fun stat, Carlos Delgado's OPS+ in 2006: 134. Jacobs: 106.

 

Details, details...

 

 

This is going to be another thread where you just can't accept you're wrong, but let me *be* clear going forward, so you know.

 

I was very busy all summer but my contract is over and I'm back and every single thing you post will come under scrutiny. Everything. You had your fun at my expense this summer while I was essentially not here by taking things out of the thread context in which they appeared and took every opportunity you could to ridicule me.

 

My turn.

 

Oh and btw the comment you made was how Delgado carried the Mets to the playoffs, ("Delgado's value to last year's team should not be overstated. He decided the division.") not how he stacked up against a guy playing on a broken ankle who could barely walk nevermind run or even a tandem of Jacobs and Helms. Delgado's numbers are down, you can't rewite that, you can't change them (like you do your posts to cover your mistaken tracks). Nowhere did I try to make a case of equivalency between Jacobs and Delgado in 2006 and I have been very careful to make the point that Mike Jacobs cannot at this point be compared on a career basis with Carlos Delgado. My comparison is 2007 vs 2007. Live with it.

 

Keep changing the subject all you want to cover your butt but it won't help you anymore. I'm back.

Of course you disagree...but that's you.

 

Take a look at Helms/Jacobs combined numbers for 2006 and you'll be every surprised how they stack up against Delgado, not equal but actually better in some stats, not so in others. Delgado had 38 HRs for example, combined Helms/Jacobs 30. It's reasonably easy to do the math since Helms played most games at first and E*S*PN has the splits.

 

But just keep disagreeing, it's so cute. You just make stuff up and state it as fact. I know it frustrates you when people actually look up stuff you say. Both his average and OBP were the lowest (in 2006) in almost a decade, only once since 1997 was his OPS+ been lower, his SLG was the third lowest since 1997.

 

He no more decided the division than the sun rises in the west. And for the record his line for September - 253 .326 .458 .784, with 4 home runs, hardly earth-shattering.

 

See, that'd be great if Helms and Jacobs played in a platoon at first base, but they didn't Jacobs played when his health allowed, Helms played whenever we needed a bat off the bench. It wasn't as if it was a true platoon. We tried getting Jake in there as much as possible (469 AB's) and that's fine, that was the right thing to do. To go back and suggest that two players production exceeded the production of one player, well, I'd sure hope so. The thing is, that Marlins 2006 team should have had Delgado and Helms, and that'd have been peach keen.

 

Jacobs and Helms combined for 709 AB's and 276 games. I'd sure as hell hope that'd outproduce a single player with 524 AB's in 144 games.

 

Here's a fun stat, Carlos Delgado's OPS+ in 2006: 134. Jacobs: 106.

 

Details, details...

 

 

This is going to be another thread where you just can't accept you're wrong, but let me *be* clear going forward, so you know.

 

I was very busy all summer but my contract is over and I'm back and every single thing you post will come under scrutiny. Everything. You had your fun at my expense this summer while I was essentially not here by taking things out of the thread context in which they appeared and took every opportunity you could to ridicule me.

 

My turn.

 

Oh and btw the comment you made was how Delgado carried the Mets to the playoffs, ("Delgado's value to last year's team should not be overstated. He decided the division.") not how he stacked up against a guy playing on a broken ankle who could barely walk nevermind run or even a tandem of Jacobs and Helms. Delgado's numbers are down, you can't rewite that, you can't change them (like you do your posts to cover your mistaken tracks). Nowhere did I try to make a case of equivalency between Jacobs and Delgado in 2006 and I have been very careful to make the point that Mike Jacobs cannot at this point be compared on a career basis with Carlos Delgado. My comparison is 2007 vs 2007. Live with it.

 

Keep changing the subject all you want to cover your butt but it won't help you anymore. I'm back.

 

Yaaaaaaaaaaay.

 

Still haven't explained away how it's downright stupid to say that because two, essentially, full time player outproduce one full time player that the team with the two players got the better end of the deal.

 

Jacobs had a full year of AB's. Helms was, and is, completely unrelated to the Delgado deal. Calling Helms' presence the deciding factor in "winning" the Delgado trade is as foolish as suggesting that Uggla means we win the Castillo trade. Helms could/would/should have been here regardless of what we did or did not get for Delgado. What we did not get for Delgado was equal value, and what we lost by trading Delgado was a very real chance to go to the playoffs in 2006.

 

Other than that, you're right on, two players combining for 270+ games and over 700 AB's should outproduce a player who gets in 144 games and 500 AB's. Good job. Pat on the back. Round of applause.

And of course you're still wrong the core issue and ignoring why and how you were wrong. But keep trying to deflect the fact you were caught in another of your untruthful statements, it's so predictable.

 

"Delgado's value to last year's team should not be overstated. He decided the division." Your words. His line for September .253 .326 .458 .784, with 4 home runs. The facts. Mets clinched on Sept 19th, from Sep 1 thru the 19th, Delgado hit .236 with an OBP of .300*. His numbers actually went up for the month AFTER the Mets clinched. More facts.

 

What's next your patented name-calling?

 

* OBP for the period Sep 1- 19th was calculated by adding hits and walks and dividing by plate appears. Did not factor in sacrifices or HBP.

And of course you're still wrong the core issue and ignoring why and how you were wrong. But keep trying to deflect the fact you were caught in another of your untruthful statements, it's so predictable.

 

"Delgado's value to last year's team should not be overstated. He decided the division." Your words. His line for September .253 .326 .458 .784, with 4 home runs. The facts. Mets clinched on Sept 19th, from Sep 1 thru the 19th, Delgado hit .236 with an OBP of .300*. His numbers actually went up for the month AFTER the Mets clinched. More facts.

 

What's next your patented name-calling?

 

* OBP for the period Sep 1- 19th was calculated by adding hits and walks and dividing by plate appears. Did not factor in sacrifices or HBP.

 

So 18 days makes a season? That's flat out absurd

 

QUESTION:

 

Does 18 days completely and totally dismiss a season .548 SLG%, a 134 OPS+, and a .909 OPS?

 

What's more, if that player with a .909 OPS is the only significant offensive addition to a team that won 83 games the year previous and then went on to win 97, is it fallacious to reason that the addition of that .909 OPS improved the team to its 95+ win total? Tell me how a team does not benefit from a .909 OPS from a player, because that's obviously the stance you're taking. Or is it that you can tell all you need to know about a player from 18 days? Because I'd love to hear that.

How Delgado did in September is not that important. The Mets had the division sealed by mid August, as far as I can remember.

How Delgado did in September is not that important. The Mets had the division sealed by mid August, as far as I can remember.

:whistle

To get back to the original idea,

 

Beinfest's worst move was not buying out Miguel Cabrera's arbitration post 2004. We're probably going to end up paying Miguel Cabrera more money in 2009 than he would have signed a 5 year contract after the 2004 season. That is just pathetic.

 

Top performance and service time comparable.

 

Hank Blalock 3b

5 years/$15.25M (2004-08), plus $6.2M 2009 club option

 

* 04:$0.5M, 05:$0.8M; 06:$3M, 07:$4.75M, 08:$5.95M, 09:$6.2M club option ($0.25M buyout)

* $50,000 bonus for All Star selection

* re-signed 2/04 (avoided arbitration)

* 1 year/$0.3025M (2003) 2/03

 

Cabrera would have gotten another few million, nothing crazy, on a core 5 year deal based on his age versus Hank and it being one year in the future. I am guessing the option year would be nonexistent or 150-200% the price of Blalocks as well based on Cabrera's younger age, but the basic fact remains; The Marlins, i.e. a cash strapped franchise, will be spending around $35-40 million dollars on Cabrera for 2003-2009 (Min, Min, $472k, $7.4, $11-13, $16-20). That is a lot of money.

 

They could have nipped this in the butt with a 5/$18 deal post 2004. Would have been the highest salary ever for a 3B in years 2-6 at the time. If the $18 number was unreasonable at all, it would be considered a landmark high contract for young arbitration buyouts. But nope. Let's not understand how to run a payroll with obvious young superstars. I was pissed in 2004. And I'm still pissed about how much potential we've lost by paying our own players (basically just Beckett, Dontrelle, and Cabrera), to much money.

 

Here's to learning from past mistakes and hope we give Hanley a, minimum, 4 year contract before he obliterates payroll potential in 2011/2012. I'm happy to throw Hermida into the category as well, but he will have less of an impact as Hanley/Cabrera because he didn't come out of the gates all gangbusters.

Worst move you ask? Here are a few that come to mind:

 

Dlee to cubs

Castillo to twins

Penny to LA

Beckett to boston

Trade away of Floyd (not sure if beinfest was GM)

 

 

Or how about not trading AJ, or signing lowell after he talked about the club in the press

 

If things go the way they do, beinfest will do a littlefield and turn the Fish into a Pirates clone, bloated vetreans and no Farm....

Worst move you ask? Here are a few that come to mind:

 

Dlee to cubs

Castillo to twins

Penny to LA

Beckett to boston

Trade away of Floyd (not sure if beinfest was GM)

 

 

Or how about not trading AJ, or signing lowell after he talked about the club in the press

 

If things go the way they do, beinfest will do a littlefield and turn the Fish into a Pirates clone, bloated vetreans and no Farm....

Yeah, all we got for Beckett and Lowell were some guys names Hanlay and Anabell or something...

Worst move you ask? Here are a few that come to mind:

 

Beckett to boston

Trade away of Floyd (not sure if beinfest was GM)

 

 

Or how about not trading AJ, or signing lowell after he talked about the club in the press

 

If things go the way they do, beinfest will do a littlefield and turn the Fish into a Pirates clone, bloated vetreans and no Farm....

haha

Worst move you ask? Here are a few that come to mind:

 

Dlee to cubs

Castillo to twins

Penny to LA

Beckett to boston

Trade away of Floyd (not sure if beinfest was GM)

 

 

Or how about not trading AJ, or signing lowell after he talked about the club in the press

 

If things go the way they do, beinfest will do a littlefield and turn the Fish into a Pirates clone, bloated vetreans and no Farm....

 

I dont follow your logic..if it was a joke its kinda funny

Funny because we just put up a poll with this exact question. Our choices were:

 

11/25/03: Derrek Lee to Cubs for Hee Seop Choi and Mike Nannini

11/20/97: Jeff Conine to Royals for Blaine Mull

7/16/05: Al Leiter and millions in Cash to Yankees

12/2/05: Luis Castillo to Twins for Travis Bowyer and Scott Tyler

12/4/95: Chuck Carr to the Brewers for for Minor Leaguer Juan Gonzalez

11/18/97: Robb Nen to Giants for Joe Fontenot, Mike Pagele, and Mike Villano

11/11/97: Moises Alou to Astros for Manuel Barrios, Oscar Henriquez, and Mark Johnson

7/25/99: Livan Hernandez to Giants for Jason Grilli and Nate Bump

 

Vote Now: The Worst Trade in Florida Marlins History?

 

-- Fish@Bat

The DLee trade was atrocious, it's goota be the worse trade in Marlin's history considering the prospects the Cubs had available at that time that trade was a huge blunder

Don't know if it was Beinfest but,

 

Twins Get: Johan Santana

 

Marlins Get: Jared Camp (minors) and cash.