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Ladies and gentlemen, your new stadium plan


Marlins2003

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I don't mean to keep posting consecutively but when you read the whole deal

 

- the Marlins get the parking lot they needed + another 6,000 spaces within 5/8 mile under their control - city builds it, turns of to stadium manager (Marlins)

 

- they get complete control of the stadium so if rock concerts ...soccer... conventions, etc. happen, the Fish bringing in revenue there.

 

- there is no mention (unless I missed it) of naming rights - I assume it goes to the Fish.

 

- we could actually have a franchise here with a decent revenue stream...this turned out to be a good deal.

:) . I'm so happy right now. But is any of this set in stone?

 

This would be awesome news. It would make most marlins fans forget about trading away cabrera and willis.

 

Lets all hope it gets done.

 

Who are Willis and Cabrera?

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Martinez and Gimenez expressed concerns. Martinez questioned Raij about the Marlins' ability to come up with the money.

.

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I think these concerns are well founded. Before, while Loria & Co. were touting there contribution as the largest in the history of the world...this was a lie...it was really just mainly rent, spread over 20-30 years. Now it's real money, and Loria needs to find a bank willing to grant a LONG TERM loan. Past history suggests that Loria will not go for a 3-5 year construction loan. He will want a 15-30 year loan. Which could be quite hard, especially in these times, even with the thought of putting up the franchise as collateral. I don't see this deal being a slam dunk....unless MLB forces Loria to reach into his pocket.

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I hate to add negative sentiments to an otherwise very positive thread. But I can only think of 2 things as I read through this deal

 

1) The Marlins are expected to put up half their net worth for a stadium in a crap area that is less convenient to their fan base than the already horribly inconvenient Dolphin Stadium? When I said before that putting up half your net worth for a dubious project is insane, the responses here were that it was spread over 30 years because of rent. Well, that's no longer the case. How on earth can they afford this? The financing issue is very shaky in my humble opinion. In this credit market, there ain't no bank crazy enough to float this kind of loan. Call me a skeptic.

 

2) Downtown is cheaper. W. T. F.

 

This is an easy one to address:

 

1. First of all I would argue with your first point, it is not more inconvenient to the fan base. It is more inconvenient to part of the fan base and much more convenient to fans who up until now had no way to get to games (living south of Flagler all the way to the keys).

 

In this market with low interest rates, in an industry that is growing exponentially and revenue-sharing (in the generic sense, I'm talking all the MLB revenue related sources - tv, electronic, merchandising, etc. + the other sources often debated here) hitting new heights, whole new revenue sources coming on line for the franchise, advertising, naming rights, concessions, etc., in a new stadium with no rent, I dont really see why the Marlins will have any problem finding financing.

 

They sure aren't loaning on real estate, they might as well put their money together somewhere and frankly this isn't even a big loan, this isn't even a medium-sized loan these days. This is a walk in the park.

 

They'll pay the loan down quicker. They'll have psotive cashflow immediately. This is a dream deal.

 

2. the reason downtown is cheaper has already been stated. The chiller plant downtown.

 

Alot of people don't realize it but the city runs this huge plant that air conditions most of the buildings downtown. Everything is underground. All the downtown site had to do was link in. One of the reasons it could fit in such a compact location.

 

The system does not extend past 95 so in order to cool the stadium for games with the roof closed you'll need your own on-premise chillers. Hence the cost increase. They are big, and expensive.

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who knows except this is the eleventh hour to get out hell on earth stadium, er Dolphin Stadium on time...everyone who was a party to the deal was there, the city and county leaders were on the radio yesterday morning. I don't know that Samson won't try to squeeze one more concession out of the deal but he'll use LeBetard's show (is it today or thursday I forget?) I suspect to announce the deal. He actually told us this was coming either last week or the week before for those who listened.

 

this is a deal the lawyers don't want to FU. everyone has a vested interest in making it happen and with adequate revenue streams (no mention of revenue sharing with the city or county) even this bad site can work.

This is a very fair deal, I agree with your assesment on this 2003. The Layyers won't screw with this for sure

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Long time no read. Moved to Atlanta, now I'm back.

 

I seriously love this deal and I happy to see Miami doing this now. Right now public opinion is at an all time low and their fan base isn't happy b/c of well... you know, so if the team leaves people won't be as mad as they would be had they done this last summer. Miami is basically calling the Marlins bluff. If "the trade" was done to help save money for the stadium then this is the best way to find out and if Miami bets the house (almost litterally) and loses then they really aren't losing much. But if they get the deal they get it on terms that are more beneficial to them. Furthermore, the condition the team is in now makes them less valuable to a possible relocation city. Oh.. and there is that whole problem of their really not being a city for them to move to since MLB took the 'Ace in the Hole' off the table when the Expos moved to DC. (remember for like 10 years how they used to threaten to move a team to DC if they didn't get a stadium, and before that it was "we'll move you to florida"). Well, they ain't got no place to go right now. So because of all these factors, and the fact that I don't think MLB is willing to let go of this market, I'm thinking we might just have us a deal.

 

 

Now they just need to nail down the minor issue of public transportation b/c I'll be damned if I'm driving down to miami after work to park in Consuela's front yard. They need to have some kind of bus or Metro-Rail service to connect with Tri-Rail and tri-rail needs to run later than it currently does.

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I like Stuart Blumberg, I really do, but I have to explain a few things regarding this Channel 10 piece that might escape the casual reader or viewer (which it was meant to do).

 

First of all, The idea that's his group the source of all the tax dollars, or even most of the tax dollars in the Professional Sports Franchise Tax kitty is categorically untrue. To understand why you need to know two things:

 

PSFT is not collected on Miami Beach (you have to read the fine print of the taxing language, that money goes to CDT coffers.

 

You also have to understand as well-meaning and hard working as he is Stuart is a gadfly. his organization IS NOT the GMCVB the major driver if tourism here, it is a much smaller group with one tenth the political clout of the larger group. Stuart has a fixation on one project, a ballroom for the Miami Beach Convention Center. He would rather it be built than a cure for cancer be found (I don't really mean that it's for effect), so obsessed is he in getting it done. He sees killing off any project that might provide more money for the MBCC as a good thing.

 

He is not a bad person, he has tunnel vision and as such he is the perfect guy to go to if you're looking for someone to say exactly what he said.

 

It's almost Pavlovian. You could interview him ten times on ten different subjects and get the identical answer if it conceivably meant a new revenue stream for the MBCC because if it doesn't fill his hotel members' rooms with conventioneers, he's against it.

 

If you hear the Beacon Council or the Greater Miami Convention and Visitor Bureau (GMCVB) come out against it be worried, be very worried.

 

But you won't.

 

But thank you Channel 10, we wouldn't have expected less from you.

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I like Stuart Blumberg, I really do, but I have to explain a few things regarding this Channel 10 piece that might escape the casual reader or viewer (which it was meant to do).

 

First of all, The idea that's his group the source of all the tax dollars, or even most of the tax dollars in the Professional Sports Franchise Tax kitty is categorically untrue. To understand why you need to know two things:

 

PSFT is not collected on Miami Beach (you have to read the fine print of the taxing language, that money goes to CDT coffers.

 

You also have to understand as well-meaning and hard working as he is Stuart is a gadfly. his organization IS NOT the GMCVB the major driver if tourism here, it is a much smaller group with one tenth the political clout of the larger group. Stuart has a fixation on one project, a ballroom for the Miami Beach Convention Center. He would rather it be built than a cure for cancer be found (I don't really mean that it's for effect), so obsessed is he in getting it done. He sees killing off any project that might provide more money for the MBCC as a good thing.

 

He is not a bad person, he has tunnel vision and as such he is the perfect guy to go to if you're looking for someone to say exactly what he said.

 

It's almost Pavlovian. You could interview him ten times on ten different subjects and get the identical answer if it conceivably meant a new revenue stream for the MBCC because if it doesn't fill his hotel members' rooms with conventioneers, he's against it.

 

If you hear the Beacon Council or the Greater Miami Convention and Visitor Bureau (GMCVB) come out against it be worried, be very worried.

 

But you won't.

 

But thank you Channel 10, we wouldn't have expected less from you.

 

So how significant would his opposition be?

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I think we all know this is the final deal breaker, if it doesn't happen here it won't happen at all.

just like the last 500 proposals that fell through?

 

Admit it... this one carries with it all the baggage of the previous attempts, not to mention we are two years away from not having a secure home any more.

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If this happens I will remove my Anit-Loria from my sig.

Call the stadium the Fish Bowl

 

That's funny. Back in the John Henry days of stadium drawings and such, that is the name I came up with. But I also was coming up with corporate sponsorship names and slogans. Many of which can't be posted on a family oriented board.

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New article from the Herald. The plan looks like it is now a "Global Works" plan that would also fund the Port Tunnel and Carnival Center among other projects, as well as fund the Marlins ballpark. Could Marlins2003 or any of you "in the know" let us know what all of this means for the Fish? It all sounds good, but I hope the stadium part can stand on it's own. I'd hate for something to happen with a science museaum and the stadium deal fall apart. Here is the link and the article:

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/460/story/342749.html

 

Financing plan would bypass voters

MIAMI MAYOR DIAZ REVEALED A PLAN TO BUILD A STADIUM AND TUNNEL -- AND HELP MUSEUMS AND ARTS CENTER. THE FIRST TEST IS THURSDAY.

Posted on Thu, Dec. 13, 2007

 

By Admin LEBOWITZ AND MICHAEL VASQUEZ

[email protected]

 

Part of the new plan proposed by Miami city and county leaders would help the Carnival Center for the Performing Arts pay down its debt. Miami's Omni Community Redevelopment Agency would contribute $400 million over the next couple of decades to help pay bonds that financed the performing arts center's construction.

 

Miami city and county leaders have forged a multibillion-dollar public-works bonanza that could alter the face of the downtown core -- affecting everything from a baseball stadium to a port tunnel to museums.

 

The plan, coming together with rare speed in the world of governmental red tape, envisions a holiday bounty of projects aimed at garnering support from constituencies ranging from sports fans to arts patrons.

 

Announced late Wednesday by Miami Mayor Manny Diaz, the deal would cover everything from a $914 million tunnel leading to the Port of Miami to finally transforming fallow Bicentennial Park into a waterfront jewel with new art and science museums.

 

By also shoring up the shaky finances at the fledgling Carnival Center for the Performing Arts, the plan's framework would free up additional tax monies that could be used to build a $525 million retractable-roof ballpark for the Florida Marlins.

 

''This is a great opportunity for all of us -- all of us -- to create an incredible legacy for the urban core,'' Diaz said following a long day of negotiating the multi-party pact -- and then selling it to individual commissioners.

 

While Diaz and others in the city embraced the so-called ''global'' agreement with the county, many questions remain.

 

One is whether a deal this complex can actually come to fruition. With so many parts forming the larger whole, it's possible that criticism of one piece of the blueprint could derail others.

 

Secondly, the intricate financing has been crafted in a way to sidestep a potential voter referendum -- which could embolden critics.

 

COMMISSIONS TO VOTE

 

Selling it is key, and the first test comes Thursday when Miami commissioners decide whether to move the multilayered plan forward.

 

County commissioners would then begin their review of key pieces of the ballpark financing and redevelopment plans Dec. 18.

 

The framework -- hashed out over several weeks of behind-the-scenes talks with city and county managers -- centers on expanding the Omni Community Redevelopment Agency to include Bicentennial Park and Watson Island.

 

CRAs are federally mandated special taxing districts that generate extra cash for areas targeted for revitalization. By aiming to expand the key Omni district, Miami leaders envision new infusions of money that would be doled out for multiple big-ticket projects.

 

The biggest beneficiaries of this new Omni CRA would be the Carnival Center for the Performing Arts and a proposed new ballpark for the Marlins at the soon-to-be-demolished Orange Bowl.

 

Diaz said the county would essentially receive up to $400 million in CRA revenue over the next 30 years to cover debt service on the arts center.

 

This will free up somewhere between $160 million and $200 million in tourist taxes from the PAC -- that the county and city could then use for the ballpark in Little Havana.

 

PARKING GARAGE

 

Less certain: whether the will, and the money, exist to build a 6,000-space parking garage and one of Diaz's personal projects -- a 25,000-seat soccer stadium also proposed for the 40-acre Orange Bowl site.

 

By expanding the CRA boundaries over the MacArthur Causeway to Watson Island, the city believes it can also use $50 million in CRA money to pay its share of the $914 million Port of Miami Tunnel over the next 35 years.

 

Florida transportation officials had vowed to move their $457 million share of the tunnel deal to other parts of the state if the city didn't put up its $50 million piece by Monday.

 

''I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel, no pun intended,'' said City Commissioner Joe Sanchez, who represents the Orange Bowl area.

 

Miami property owners would also benefit from the expanded Omni CRA, city leaders say.

 

Diaz said the city would pay off its outstanding debt on the troubled Jungle Island construction loans from the expanded CRA instead of general revenues.

 

By expanding the boundaries into Bicentennial Park, the city would also use $68 million in new CRA revenue for the development of Museum Park -- including a planned underground parking garage. The CRA money would not be used to build the museums.

 

OVERTOWN IMPACT

 

Another question mark: whether city officials will be legally permitted to spin another $2 million a year out of the CRA to pay for ongoing capital improvements inside the park.

 

A second, more hard-pressed, special tax district would also benefit under the city-county pact.

 

The Southeast Overtown/Park West CRA, which generates considerably less revenue than the Omni, would be extended to year 2030 and its boundaries expanded to 20th Street on the north and Northwest Seventh Avenue on the west.

 

The city would spend up to $80 million for affordable housing, infrastructure, parks and job programs in the economically depressed Overtown neighborhood, and it would set aside $35 million for the city's struggling streetcar plan.

 

Diaz said Miami planned to adopt a pay-as-you-go approach when spending the CRA money on these big-ticket items over the next 30 years, rather than floating bonds to bankroll the projects.

 

The unstated reason: The projects wouldn't have to face voter approval.

 

In previous years, the city had contemplated issuing CRA bonds that could net perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars up front, to be used on large public-works projects.

 

But the Florida Supreme Court ruled in September that any bond issue local governments do with CRA money needs voter approval. Miami responded by abandoning its bond-issue plans.

 

This plan would sidestep those concerns.

 

DETAILS

 

As in every public project, the key is in the details, and literally hundreds of them still need to be hashed out.

 

First: Does Diaz have the three commission votes to pass the plan when the body meets this morning?

 

''God willing, [Thursday] we will approve possibly the most exciting -- largest, certainly -- package of projects in city history,'' Diaz said late Wednesday.

 

Commissioner Sanchez said of the ''global'' agreement: "So far, it looks good. . . . It's a win-win situation for everybody.''

 

Herald staff writers Charles Rabin, Andres Viglucci and Matthew I. Pinzur contributed to this report.

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Anytime you throw so many different projects like this into one pot and stir it up, you're going to have problems.

 

There are a couple of issues in regards to the Marlins. I wonder if they knew that Manny Diaz wants to build a 25,000 seat soccer field on the Orange Bowl site with the new stadium AND garage when they were presented this new deal. The City from day one has been the problem with all negotiations. If it were just the county and the Marlins they'd have a stadium half built by now.

 

(One thing just dawned on me after I've written everything above and below this parenthetical thought - the city is deeding the land to the county - the county will control the lot and Manny can want to build a soccer stadium there all he wants but it will be up to the county to decide - unless that deal was always in the background and not disclosed until today. It gets so complicated.)

 

Manny is out of his mind. I know what's coming next. The City will want control of the concessions.

 

All that said, and hopefully the county mayor gets the city in line, most of the projects being kluged together have a federal, state and county funding components that make the numbers seem much, much higher than they really are.

 

The billion dollar tunnel project for example will cost the city $50 million, the other $950 million coming from other governmental sources. Ditto with a number of other projects. And aren't they glad they're stuck with the Performing Arts Center white elephant that hemorrhaging money???

 

Anyways this is not good news, especially the soccer stadium idea, but it isn't deal-killer news either. In the end it remains to be seen whether it increases the number of votes on the two commissions for the Marlins (and other) projects or hurts the count. Politics is after all about counting votes.

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I agree with 2003's analysis, unfortunately. When you lump in a bunch of projects together like that it increases the odds of the less popular projects actually being completed if you have a very popular project in there that everyone thinks we absolutely must have. If you have a project you can do on its own, then lumping it together with a bunch of others (which may or may not be popular) may end up killing it. Diaz may be saying he "supports" the stadium, but he may be doing this to appear to support the stadium when in fact he knows it won't get done because he's requiring all of these projects to be approved together.

 

If Diaz wants this stadium done he needs to keep the stadium project separate from the other projects.

 

There is a big developer who wants to build the garage and the stadium (and his stadium plans include having a soccer field). The current plan doesn't include a soccer field, and the garage idea does not include this developer's plans. I think that's where this is coming from. This developer (and Diaz) are trying to get themselves into this deal.

 

Don't let it happen, people. Start calling your representatives today!

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i totally disagree... lumping projects together can definately help. someone who doesnt care about the stadium but has a hard-on for the tunnel is way more likely to support the proposal now. quid pro quo guys. because the marlins are going to be paying 150 mil up front, the govt now possibly can put the down payment on everything. i would assume that coming up with the initial payments would be the problem for most of these projects... which would now be solved.

 

also, the soccer stadium thing is gaining momentum... which is a good thing in my opinion. turn the area into a philly or kc style sports complex... more jobs. id love to see an fc miami.

 

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/071213/story1.shtml

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Anytime you throw so many different projects like this into one pot and stir it up, you're going to have problems.

 

There are a couple of issues in regards to the Marlins. I wonder if they knew that Manny Diaz wants to build a 25,000 seat soccer field on the Orange Bowl site with the new stadium AND garage when they were presented this new deal. The City from day one has been the problem with all negotiations. If it were just the county and the Marlins they'd have a stadium half built by now.

 

(One thing just dawned on me after I've written everything above and below this parenthetical thought - the city is deeding the land to the county - the county will control the lot and Manny can want to build a soccer stadium there all he wants but it will be up to the county to decide - unless that deal was always in the background and not disclosed until today. It gets so complicated.)

 

Manny is out of his mind. I know what's coming next. The City will want control of the concessions.

 

All that said, and hopefully the county mayor gets the city in line, most of the projects being kluged together have a federal, state and county funding components that make the numbers seem much, much higher than they really are.

 

The billion dollar tunnel project for example will cost the city $50 million, the other $950 million coming from other governmental sources. Ditto with a number of other projects. And aren't they glad they're stuck with the Performing Arts Center white elephant that hemorrhaging money???

 

Anyways this is not good news, especially the soccer stadium idea, but it isn't deal-killer news either. In the end it remains to be seen whether it increases the number of votes on the two commissions for the Marlins (and other) projects or hurts the count. Politics is after all about counting votes.

 

 

After reading Diaz "vision", I ended with a sour taste in my mouth. Too many projects, etc.

 

A soccer field?!?! AHHHH

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This is an easy one to address:

 

1. First of all I would argue with your first point, it is not more inconvenient to the fan base. It is more inconvenient to part of the fan base and much more convenient to fans who up until now had no way to get to games (living south of Flagler all the way to the keys).

 

In this market with low interest rates, in an industry that is growing exponentially and revenue-sharing (in the generic sense, I'm talking all the MLB revenue related sources - tv, electronic, merchandising, etc. + the other sources often debated here) hitting new heights, whole new revenue sources coming on line for the franchise, advertising, naming rights, concessions, etc., in a new stadium with no rent, I dont really see why the Marlins will have any problem finding financing.

 

They sure aren't loaning on real estate, they might as well put their money together somewhere and frankly this isn't even a big loan, this isn't even a medium-sized loan these days. This is a walk in the park.

 

They'll pay the loan down quicker. They'll have psotive cashflow immediately. This is a dream deal.

 

2. the reason downtown is cheaper has already been stated. The chiller plant downtown.

 

Alot of people don't realize it but the city runs this huge plant that air conditions most of the buildings downtown. Everything is underground. All the downtown site had to do was link in. One of the reasons it could fit in such a compact location.

 

The system does not extend past 95 so in order to cool the stadium for games with the roof closed you'll need your own on-premise chillers. Hence the cost increase. They are big, and expensive.

 

I hope you're right about the financing. It seems hard for me to believe they could pay back that kind of loan without keeping payroll at the zilch level.

 

Regardind downtown being cheaper, yes I read why it's cheaper. My WTF comment was in reference to why on earth are we still insisting on OB if downtown is cheaper! The whole argument for going to OB over downtown on this forum has been that OB would be cheaper. Well, it's not. Thsi removes the one and only theoretical benefit of OB. So now we're not just building on a site that's less desirable, but we're also paying more money for it. IT MAKES NO SENSE! ugh.

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Last night on LeBatard's show Samson was noncommital, then Stuart Blumberg opposes the plan, and now the City has its own plan with the Marlins as a component. It's not looking good, folks.

 

I want something to happen so the team has a home here, but I am not going to count on it. I don't think all of our politicians form the different jurisdictions and entities involved ever are going to agree upon a proposal that the Marlins will accept.

 

But I hope I am wrong.

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Well, today is being spent with the Miami/Dade politicos trying to skim as much meat off this bone as is legally possible, and then as much as is illegally possible. On the other side, we have Loria searching for a funding source that will enable him to stretch out the payments over as many years as possible while he ponders ownership without those nice revenue sharing checks. We wait, like we've waited for years. Let's not forget the fact that Loria nixed a deal years ago over 30 Million. In the back of my mind I think the final savior of baseball in South Florida will be the Indians(not Cleveland, the Seminole tribe).

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