W-L record for a pitcher might be the most overrated stat in any sport

 

 

 

It all depends how you interpret the statistic. Fact is, a bunch of statistics in baseball can be considered overrated, and you can certainly make a case for certain stats being a lot more overrated than win-loss record.

W-L record for a pitcher might be the most overrated stat in any sport

 

 

 

It all depends how you interpret the statistic. Fact is, a bunch of statistics in baseball can be considered overrated, and you can certainly make a case for certain stats being a lot more overrated than win-loss record.

I can't think of which one in baseball could be considered more overated than W-L. Maybe fielding percentage, but I'd still call it W-L over that.

I wish more people would go to games, but hey, we all know the reasons and some excuses why people don't go.

 

Also. Strasburg game = friday. Ubaldo "over rated" Jimenez game = monday. No one has shutup about strasburg since before the season started.

 

 

How is he overrated? He's 15-2 with an ERA under 3...

 

 

 

He's 15-1

And, because people always like to forget, he pitches at Coors.

If they didn't put the balls in the humidor there, he wouldn't even be in the CY Young conversation. But you have to give him some props. Just not as much as JJ.

Edit: His home ERA with the humidor is 3.52 and his road ERA is 1.6. JJ: Home 1.41 Road 2.00. (How come when you avererage those together it comes out slightly higher than their actual total ERA?:confused)

 

Because of the inning differential between home and away.

Why do we get upset when others talk about our team, when we do the same thing,

 

 

I think it is because when we do talk about it, we (generally, not always, but generally) talk about attendance is less harsh, more diplomatic terms. Of course, even when wetalk about it harshly, we can rationalize it as "tough love."

 

While it seems that other announcers take delight in pointing out our woes and use it to make fun of the team. It isn't "tough love" (to fans like ourselves), it is being mean for the sake of being mean.

 

It is the equivalent of a person who knows they have a flaw and doesn't want that to be the only thing people notice, but everyone who comes in and dates that person cannot stop talking about the flaw.

I also think that W-L is the most overrated stat in baseball. Batting average is a better indicator of performance, and fielding percentage isn't used widely enough to be worse than W-L.

Fielding percentage and batting average also at least tell you something about a player (Ability to not make errors, ability to create base hits). They're not "overrated", they're just misused. Win % doesn't really tell you anything about a pitcher. Yes, MAYBE it tells you that a pitcher is good at going deep into games. Or it means he's horrible at going deep into games but has a great offense. Maybe it tells you he's great at limiting damage, or it tells you the other teams bullpen sucks ass.

CERA is worse than W / L record. ERA for middle relievers is probably worse too.

 

The inherited runners stat for relievers is pretty weak too. A guy comes in with a runner on first, faces two hitters and allows both to get on moving the inherited runenr 3rd without getting anyone out and is then removed... incredibly he gets credit for stranding a runner.

Why is there no blown holds stat? A hold is the middle relief equivalent of a save so if there's blown saves, shouldn't there be blown holds? That would be a good stat to measure relief pitchers I would think.

W-L record for a pitcher might be the most overrated stat in any sport

 

 

 

It all depends how you interpret the statistic. Fact is, a bunch of statistics in baseball can be considered overrated, and you can certainly make a case for certain stats being a lot more overrated than win-loss record.

I can't think of which one in baseball could be considered more overated than W-L. Maybe fielding percentage, but I'd still call it W-L over that.

 

Which really cant be as overrated because we dont look at it everyday, but we look at W-L and it's in every conversation for an elite pitcher. It's always " he's blank-blank with a blank.blankityblank ERA".

CERA is worse than W / L record. ERA for middle relievers is probably worse too.

 

The inherited runners stat for relievers is pretty weak too. A guy comes in with a runner on first, faces two hitters and allows both to get on moving the inherited runenr 3rd without getting anyone out and is then removed... incredibly he gets credit for stranding a runner.

 

 

Explain how that could ever possibly be an overrated stat is absolutely nobody outside of the statistical baseball world knows what it even means? I know you said 'worse than' but Im pretty sure the discussion is 'overrated'.

If they didn't put the balls in the humidor there, he wouldn't even be in the CY Young conversation. But you have to give him some props. Just not as much as JJ.

Edit: His home ERA with the humidor is 3.52 and his road ERA is 1.6. JJ: Home 1.41 Road 2.00. (How come when you avererage those together it comes out slightly higher than their actual total ERA?:confused)

 

 

Different amount of IP on road games and home games.

What about RBI as another overrated stat? It's contingent upon the batters in front of you getting on base and there is no possible way a batter could control that. I don't think it's as overrated as W-L but it should definitely be in the discussion.

What about RBI as another overrated stat? It's contingent upon the batters in front of you getting on base and there is no possible way a batter could control that. I don't think it's as overrated as W-L but it should definitely be in the discussion.

 

It's overrated by some but underrated by others. Many people think RBIs are solely dependent on the number of base runners a guy has on base and that's obviously wrong. It also depends on the guy's propensity to drive those base runners in and the home runs he hits. Some guys such as Miguel Cabrera excel at driving in the base runners he has on. His career average is 19% while the league average is only 15%. So Cabrera is a beast at driving in his base runners and he should be applauded for it.

What about RBI as another overrated stat? It's contingent upon the batters in front of you getting on base and there is no possible way a batter could control that. I don't think it's as overrated as W-L but it should definitely be in the discussion.

 

 

Here's the difference. Only the good players at the end of the season will put up high RBI counts. And there is much more (in terms of basic statistics) to look at for a batter than a pitcher.

 

But even a bad pitcher can put up a good W-L because it's a statistic entirely dependent on two factors. The first and foremost factor would be team run support, and the second factor would be pitching. With RBIs there are several factors that effect the statistic, but I think most notably would be player skill.

CERA is worse than W / L record. ERA for middle relievers is probably worse too.

 

The inherited runners stat for relievers is pretty weak too. A guy comes in with a runner on first, faces two hitters and allows both to get on moving the inherited runenr 3rd without getting anyone out and is then removed... incredibly he gets credit for stranding a runner.

 

The last time I saw someone mention CERA was about 6 months ago, while talking about how terrible CERA is. I think the time before that was someone bringing it up for the first time and people telling them how terrible it is. And so on.

 

Noone uses CERA for anything, it's not overrated. Just bad.

 

 

What about RBI as another overrated stat? It's contingent upon the batters in front of you getting on base and there is no possible way a batter could control that. I don't think it's as overrated as W-L but it should definitely be in the discussion.

 

It's overrated by some but underrated by others. Many people think RBIs are solely dependent on the number of base runners a guy has on base and that's obviously wrong. It also depends on the guy's propensity to drive those base runners in and the home runs he hits. Some guys such as Miguel Cabrera excel at driving in the base runners he has on. His career average is 19% while the league average is only 15%. So Cabrera is a beast at driving in his base runners and he should be applauded for it.

Yes, he's been above average at getting hits with RISP. He's also been above average at getting hits without RISP.

 

The great players will be great, RISP or not.

CERA is seletively used when a particular catcher is hated and the use of CERA is convenient. Give it time.

 

Some great hitters are better than other great hitters at driving in their base runners and they deserve praise for it.

Back to the original topic. I don't blame the Rockies for dogging attendance as it has been a problem for a long time for the Marlins. I remember back in 2002 when I went to a game in which Bartolo Colon was going for his 20th win for the Expos. I was sitting behind the plate and overheard scouts talking about how poor the attendance was and they were saying that Miami didn't deserve a major league team. I can't remember the announced crowd that day but there couldn't have been more than 300 butts in the seats. Hopefully the new stadium will help cure the attendance issues.

OK Colorado can start calling the Marlins "pathetic" when they get themselves a World Series

It has nothing to do with championship titles. No one can compare the support the Rockies get compared to what the Marlins get.

They said for a Ubaldo Jiminez start, the Marlins showing was pathetic.

 

I think they were just bitter b/c the Marlins attendance during Strasburg's start was close to 30,000.

 

 

I've wondered multiple times in the past...now I have to ask. I'm not trying to pick a fight, really, i'm not,, but why do you constantly get worked up over what opposing commentators say? Who cares? They are gonna support the team that is signing their paycheck. The more negative crap they can bring up about their opposition, the better job they did.

They said for a Ubaldo Jiminez start, the Marlins showing was pathetic.

 

I think they were just bitter b/c the Marlins attendance during Strasburg's start was close to 30,000.

 

 

I've wondered multiple times in the past...now I have to ask. I'm not trying to pick a fight, really, i'm not,, but why do you constantly get worked up over what opposing commentators say? Who cares? They are gonna support the team that is signing their paycheck. The more negative crap they can bring up about their opposition, the better job they did.

 

The difference is b/c I live in California so when I watch Marlins games, I have the choice whether to watch it on the Marlins broadcast or the oppositions broadcast. I like watching it from the opposition's viewpoint b/c I get a different perspective on the Marlins and what other teams are saying about our players and our team in general.

 

If you want me to be completely truthful, I've probably heard 10 different broadcasters bash the Marlins in some way, shape, or form. There's a difference between bashing and giving constructive criticism. I think the reason it gets to me is b/c I've been watching Rich and Tommy broadcast for years now and they don't bash other teams. They're truthful, but completely respectful to the opposition. They always give credit where credit is due and overall they show class. Using adjectives like "pathetic," "sad," "disgraceful" are words you'll never see our announcers use. So I guess I just expect that sort of etiquette in return.

W-L record for a pitcher might be the most overrated stat in any sport

 

 

 

It all depends how you interpret the statistic. Fact is, a bunch of statistics in baseball can be considered overrated, and you can certainly make a case for certain stats being a lot more overrated than win-loss record.

I can't think of which one in baseball could be considered more overated than W-L. Maybe fielding percentage, but I'd still call it W-L over that.

 

 

Well, that might be true, but that wasn't really my point. Most of the basic statistics are overrated, which is the reason for sabermetrics to better understand the value of a player, etc. A stat that I find to be incredibly overrated though for middle relievers are holds...like for example the other night Clay Hensley got a hold for allowing 3 ER's in .2 innings simply because it was Marinez who gave up the HR and he (Hensley) left the game with the lead still at 7-5.

 

Saves are very, very overrated, as well. It's the reason Matt Capps, for example, made the All-Star team when he really hadn't been all that good this year. As a matter of fact, I'll go with saves/blown saves as the most overrated statistic in baseball. People just like to look at the statistic as if all saves are created equal.

 

Another thing that was being discussed the other day on the telecast...the quality start isn't really a quality start anymore. A pitcher can have a full season of quality starts and end up with 6 IP/S (making the bullpen go at least 3 innings everytime). That pitcher with all quality starts can also end up with a 4.50 ERA, which is actually the ERA of a #4/solid #5.

 

So my point is that I don't know if I'd call win-loss record the most overrated stat in baseball, much less in all sports as the original post quoted, stated.

It has nothing to do with championship titles. No one can compare the support the Rockies get compared to what the Marlins get.

 

 

The last couple of years the support for the Rockies has been up & down, just as it is in Arizona. The Pirates have horrible attendance IN A NEW STADIUM and yet no one takes pot-shots at them. Oakland attendance sucks as bad as the Marlins, unless they are playing Boston, the White Sox or Yankees, and no one rags on their attendance. People just seem to want to hate the Marlins for beating the Cubs in 2003, because that was supposed to be "their year". It started then, and its remained the focal point for their snideness and anger at the Marlins.

I'll go with saves/blown saves as the most overrated statistic in baseball. People just like to look at the statistic as if all saves are created equal.

 

I don't think blown saves are overrated. It tracks leads a reliever surrendered and to me that's useful information. I would just call it something else and wouldn't limit it to any number of runs so if a guy gives up a 5 run lead he gets "credit" for it.

Hopefully the Rockies' announcers spend one more day conducting interviews in the loser's locker room before leaving Miami.