How about considering throwing something at Cincy for Brandon Phillips?

 

Living up here in Louisville I can tell you for a fact that the Reds consider themselves contenders and wouldn't even entertain such an idea. If anything they will be buyers.

We really can't afford to get rid of any starting pitchers because, outside of Hand, we really have nobody in that department who can provide reasonable assurance of decent performance starting next year.

 

 

Like I said, it depends who you get in return. If someone offers you more talent then what you are giving them, you always take that trade. Starting pitching can be found in free agency. Nolasco is okay, but not irreplaceable.

 

 

Not really. Good SP is normally developed, unless if you're a big market team who can overpay for the top ace, which this team is not.

You're not going to find a better pitcher than Ricky Nolasco in free agency - at least not this upcoming offseason.

 

Here is the list:

 

Mark Buehrle CWS

Chris Carpenter STL *

Bruce Chen KC

Aaron Cook COL *

Kyle Davies KC

Ryan Dempster CHC *

Justin Duchscherer OAK

Zach Duke ARI *

Jeff Francis KC

Freddy Garcia NYY

Jon Garland LAD *

Aaron Harang SD

Rich Harden OAK

Livan Hernandez WAS

Edwin Jackson CWS

Kenshin Kawakami ATL

Scott Kazmir LAA

Hiroki Kuroda LAD

Rodrigo Lopez CHC

Paul Maholm PIT

John Maine COL

Jason Marquis WAS

Kevin Millwood NYY

Scott Olsen PIT *

Roy Oswalt PHI *

Brad Penny DET

Oliver Perez NYM

Joel Pineiro LAA

CC Sabathia NYY (may opt out)

Carlos Silva NYY

Javier Vazquez FLA

Adam Wainwright STL *

Tim Wakefield BOS

Chien-Ming Wang WAS

Brandon Webb ARI

C.J. Wilson TEX

Chris Young NYM

 

* - player whose current contract includes 2012 option

That list still doesn't have Erik Bedard. And C.J. Wilson is probably still the only one I would consider to definitely be better than Nolasco.

In February 2011 Loria said the 2012 payroll wouldn't be determined until after the 2011 season.

 

Aw, geez. He says that EVERY year. And it's true every year.

 

As I said earlier, ticket sales are ahead of expectations, the June slump had no effect.

 

They know now approximately how many season ticket packages will be sold. They know now about how much the stadium naming deal is going to generate. They know now about how much profit concessions are going to generate.

 

They have a pretty good idea RIGHT NOW what revenue is going to look like in '12, they just aren't saying anything to the public yet. No doubt their estimate will be refined as time goes on, but their philosophy is to spend everything they reasonably can on payroll. Loria hasn't superseded anything, they expect to be an average payroll team in '12 and going forward and have been saying that for years.

 

Barring some sort of calamity, they will be.

Never mind CJ Wilson is giving up runs galore in the ASG.

 

Bedard, ftw.

 

 

CJ WIlson could give up 15 runs in the ASG and I'd still take him over Bedard.

 

I don't care how old they are that doesn't have relevance on their performance, were talking about who's a better pitcher not who's older or who's younger. (again )

 

So your argument that Wilson is better, is based solely on K's and number of starts, thats pretty poor reasoning.

 

Also probably the only reason Wilson made the All Star game was because of Ron Washington.

 

The whole injury thing is also irrelevant because that's like saying a Ricky Nolasco is better than Josh Johnson just because Johnson has injury problems.

 

I stand by my opinion, and rest my case.

This whole conversation about who we'd rather sign. Age, injury history, and also track record are vital since both will command multi-year deals.

I don't care how old they are that doesn't have relevance on their performance, were talking about who's a better pitcher not who's older or who's younger. (again )

 

So your argument that Wilson is better, is based solely on K's and number of starts, thats pretty poor reasoning.

 

Also probably the only reason Wilson made the All Star game was because of Ron Washington.

 

The whole injury thing is also irrelevant because that's like saying a Ricky Nolasco is better than Josh Johnson just because Johnson has injury problems.

 

I stand by my opinion, and rest my case.

 

 

Guys aren't going to go into free agency looking for 1-2 year deals. They're going to look to set themselves up with 3-4 year deals, so to say injury history and age are irrelevant is completely idiotic.

 

Also, if you think his reasoning was poor, how about the reasoning I posted? No comment?

Never mind CJ Wilson is giving up runs galore in the ASG.

 

Bedard, ftw.

 

 

CJ WIlson could give up 15 runs in the ASG and I'd still take him over Bedard.

 

I don't care how old they are that doesn't have relevance on their performance, were talking about who's a better pitcher not who's older or who's younger. (again )

 

So your argument that Wilson is better, is based solely on K's and number of starts, thats pretty poor reasoning.

 

Also probably the only reason Wilson made the All Star game was because of Ron Washington.

 

The whole injury thing is also irrelevant because that's like saying a Ricky Nolasco is better than Josh Johnson just because Johnson has injury problems.

 

I stand by my opinion, and rest my case.

 

 

No. He made it because his numbers are pretty legit. Especially for a guy who pitches in Texas.

 

C.J. Wilson's become a very good SP, and is clearly the best upcoming free agent if we're talking about SP's.

 

And the whole injury thing isn't irrelevant. Bedard's had some serious injuries, and is definitely injury prone.

Never mind CJ Wilson is giving up runs galore in the ASG.

 

Bedard, ftw.

 

 

CJ WIlson could give up 15 runs in the ASG and I'd still take him over Bedard.

 

I don't care how old they are that doesn't have relevance on their performance, were talking about who's a better pitcher not who's older or who's younger. (again )

 

So your argument that Wilson is better, is based solely on K's and number of starts, thats pretty poor reasoning.

 

Also probably the only reason Wilson made the All Star game was because of Ron Washington.

 

The whole injury thing is also irrelevant because that's like saying a Ricky Nolasco is better than Josh Johnson just because Johnson has injury problems.

 

I stand by my opinion, and rest my case.

 

 

No. He made it because his numbers are pretty legit. Especially for a guy who pitches in Texas.

 

C.J. Wilson's become a very good SP, and is clearly the best upcoming free agent if we're talking about SP's.

 

And the whole injury thing isn't irrelevant. Bedard's had some serious injuries, and is definitely injury prone.

 

 

Naw, Erik Bedards numbers are comparable and even better career wise the only difference is he doesn't play for a Texas type offense that scores lots of runs, and he has been injured for much of his career. As for Wilson you can't just say well he's become a good pitcher so have a lot of pitchers, and what defines a "good pitcher" All Star status?

 

Also I don't care what ballpark pitchers pitch in, we don't put an asterisk next to stats because a pitcher plays in a certain ballpark.

 

In the end I'm not saying he shouldn't have been at the All Star game, I'm just saying I would rather have Bedard long term because I think he's a better pitcher.

Never mind CJ Wilson is giving up runs galore in the ASG.

 

Bedard, ftw.

 

 

CJ WIlson could give up 15 runs in the ASG and I'd still take him over Bedard.

 

I don't care how old they are that doesn't have relevance on their performance, were talking about who's a better pitcher not who's older or who's younger. (again )

 

So your argument that Wilson is better, is based solely on K's and number of starts, thats pretty poor reasoning.

 

Also probably the only reason Wilson made the All Star game was because of Ron Washington.

 

The whole injury thing is also irrelevant because that's like saying a Ricky Nolasco is better than Josh Johnson just because Johnson has injury problems.

 

I stand by my opinion, and rest my case.

 

 

No. He made it because his numbers are pretty legit. Especially for a guy who pitches in Texas.

 

C.J. Wilson's become a very good SP, and is clearly the best upcoming free agent if we're talking about SP's.

 

And the whole injury thing isn't irrelevant. Bedard's had some serious injuries, and is definitely injury prone.

 

 

Naw, Erik Bedards numbers are comparable and even better career wise the only difference is he doesn't play for a Texas type offense that scores lots of runs, and he has been injured for much of his career. As for Wilson you can't just say well he's become a good pitcher so have a lot of pitchers, and what defines a "good pitcher" All Star status?

 

Also I don't care what ballpark pitchers pitch in, we don't put an asterisk next to stats because a pitcher plays in a certain ballpark.

 

In the end I'm not saying he shouldn't have been at the All Star game, I'm just saying I would rather have Bedard long term because I think he's a better pitcher.

 

 

Bedard has never thrown 200 innings in one season. The last time Bedard threw 100 innings in one season was 2007. You can't just ignore injuries in such a scenario.

 

And pitching in a certain ballpark isn't irrelevant either. Pitching in Texas, etc. isn't the same as pitching in San Diego, etc. The great Michael Young doesn't put up the same #'s he's put up without playing in Texas his entire career. Teams notice this, hence the reason why no one wanted Michael Young and his salary despite this board's infatuation with him (at least some on this board).

 

And really, I don't see why you're focused on career #'s. Bedard was a dominant pitcher four years ago. He's not quite the same pitcher anymore (in large part because of injuries).

 

Wilson's career is that of a good reliever turned starter just last year. Just last year, he threw over 200 innings of quality baseball (a number Bedard's never reached). This year he's an All-Star both results-wise, and with improving peripherals (notably, his BB/9 continues to improve, which is significant).

 

Wilson's also two years younger than Bedard.

This argument =

I don't care how old they are that doesn't have relevance on their performance, were talking about who's a better pitcher not who's older or who's younger. (again )

 

So your argument that Wilson is better, is based solely on K's and number of starts, thats pretty poor reasoning.

 

Also probably the only reason Wilson made the All Star game was because of Ron Washington.

 

The whole injury thing is also irrelevant because that's like saying a Ricky Nolasco is better than Josh Johnson just because Johnson has injury problems.

 

I stand by my opinion, and rest my case.

 

 

Guys aren't going to go into free agency looking for 1-2 year deals. They're going to look to set themselves up with 3-4 year deals, so to say injury history and age are irrelevant is completely idiotic.

 

Also, if you think his reasoning was poor, how about the reasoning I posted? No comment?

 

Your reasoning was poor and there was no reason to respond to it, also your stats were wrong.

 

In Bedards last 4 years he has pitched 450 innings and given up 153 ER's.

In Wilsons last 4 years he has pitched 455 innings and given up 177 ER's.

 

If you were to round the numbers to equal innings Bedard has given up less ER's.

Lol and how much money would we have to throw at wilson for him to actually sign with us and not texas again

Your reasoning was poor and there was no reason to respond to it, also your stats were wrong.

 

In Bedards last 4 years he has pitched 450 innings and given up 153 ER's.

In Wilsons last 4 years he has pitched 455 innings and given up 177 ER's.

 

If you were to round the numbers to equal innings Bedard has given up less ER's.

 

 

What was wrong about the stats I posted?

 

I didn't say anything about ER over the player's last 4 seasons, which is stupid to count for Bedard, considering he missed an entire season.

 

Erik Bedard's been good when healthy, however he hasn't been as good as Wilson has. His numbers look better because of the park he plays in compared to Wilson, which absolutely matters, whether you think so or not. Which is why I used ERA+, which is a a measure of how much better than average you have been, relative to the league and park you pitch in. CJ Wilson has been a better pitcher, relative to the environment he pitches in than Bedard.

 

Add on the fact that Bedard hasn't thrown more than 100 innings since before the last Presidential election AND Wilson is younger, and there's no question who the better pitcher would be in FA. Just because you're a Mariners fan and your team sold the farm for him 4 years ago doesn't mean he's a better pitcher.1

No injury prone players. Especially with our ace injury prone himself, i'd rather have someone who can eat innings.

No injury prone players. Especially with our ace injury prone himself, i'd rather have someone who can eat innings.

 

 

i would love CJ Wilson but if we get Erik Bedard i'd be ecstatic as well

For one year, sure, I'll take Bedard. Nothing more.

Bedard would be fine if he was cheap, but otherwise I would assume that he's not worth a lot of money based on his injury history.

Your reasoning was poor and there was no reason to respond to it, also your stats were wrong.

 

In Bedards last 4 years he has pitched 450 innings and given up 153 ER's.

In Wilsons last 4 years he has pitched 455 innings and given up 177 ER's.

 

If you were to round the numbers to equal innings Bedard has given up less ER's.

 

 

What was wrong about the stats I posted?

 

I didn't say anything about ER over the player's last 4 seasons, which is stupid to count for Bedard, considering he missed an entire season.

 

Erik Bedard's been good when healthy, however he hasn't been as good as Wilson has. His numbers look better because of the park he plays in compared to Wilson, which absolutely matters, whether you think so or not. Which is why I used ERA+, which is a a measure of how much better than average you have been, relative to the league and park you pitch in. CJ Wilson has been a better pitcher, relative to the environment he pitches in than Bedard.

 

Add on the fact that Bedard hasn't thrown more than 100 innings since before the last Presidential election AND Wilson is younger, and there's no question who the better pitcher would be in FA. Just because you're a Mariners fan and your team sold the farm for him 4 years ago doesn't mean he's a better pitcher.1

 

And C.J. Wilson didn't have more innings because he was a reliever. Beadard was a starter the entire time. He just was unable to pitch when called on because on injuries.

But everyone else has poor reasoning

It has been written in a few articles, but also that payroll wouldn't increase dramatically during the first season in the new park. I'd expect it to be similar, maybe a few million more than what it is now for the first year or so.

 

 

I disagree. I think it hits real close to or even a little over league average the first year, for a few reasons. First is because season ticket sales are better than expected. May make them rethink that first year thing. Second is because they started selling 2012 season tickets early (last year) and have a real good idea of how much $$$ they will have to work with. And they haven't even started with the partial plans yet. Third is because of the pricing of the season ticket plans. They have gone way up, giving them more $$$ to play with even if season tickets hadn't escalated from the embrassing amount we have now. Then add in how much more $$$ they will be making from all the other things. Parking, food sales, etc...

 

About the only crimp I see to this theory is that they know and are taking into consideration that season ticket sales will drop in 2013. I believe most here are in agreement that this will happen. So maybe they will want to wait and see just how much of a decrease there will be before they commit to any long(er) term contracts.

In February 2011 Loria said the 2012 payroll wouldn't be determined until after the 2011 season.

 

Aw, geez. He says that EVERY year. And it's true every year.As I said earlier, ticket sales are ahead of expectations, the June slump had no effect.

 

They know now approximately how many season ticket packages will be sold. They know now about how much the stadium naming deal is going to generate. They know now about how much profit concessions are going to generate.

 

They have a pretty good idea RIGHT NOW what revenue is going to look like in '12, they just aren't saying anything to the public yet. No doubt their estimate will be refined as time goes on, but their philosophy is to spend everything they reasonably can on payroll. Loria hasn't superseded anything, they expect to be an average payroll team in '12 and going forward and have been saying that for years.

 

Barring some sort of calamity, they will be.

 

And I thought you posted it very well. But it seems as if what some people read dosen't fit their thoughts, then they just ignore it like it was never there to begin with.

True, dat.

 

Let's imagine that Loria says today that payroll in '12 will be 80 million. And then it turns out that '12 payroll is only 76 million.

 

The immediate and vicious assault of the Loria-haters would be mind-numbing. He lied, they would scream. He's only lining his pockets! He's a crook! He's stealing from us!

 

When they should be looking at the MLBPA, not owners, for most of the reasons for inflated costs and ticket prices. And to team revenue for why payroll is whatever it is. Never mind that the Marlins have already said that '12 payroll will be larger than '11 payroll and that 76 million is much larger than 58 million. That wouldn't count.

 

Of course, if '12 payroll turns out to be 85 million, we wouldn't hear a peep out of the bashers. Whether that would be due to revenue justifying it or to Loria extending himself to make a one-time splash for the new venue would be totally ignored because Loria and all owners are obviously evil.

 

:lol

The bottom line is that you gotta compete with the Phillies staff. I know that doesn't sound very fair, but that's the deal. If the Marlins stand pat, I don't see them challenging for the division next year. I know it sounds strange because I advocate trading Ricky Nolasco, but like I said, someone may get desperate and off you a super talent for him.

In February 2011 Loria said the 2012 payroll wouldn't be determined until after the 2011 season.

 

Aw, geez. He says that EVERY year. And it's true every year.

 

As I said earlier, ticket sales are ahead of expectations, the June slump had no effect.

 

They know now approximately how many season ticket packages will be sold. They know now about how much the stadium naming deal is going to generate. They know now about how much profit concessions are going to generate.

 

They have a pretty good idea RIGHT NOW what revenue is going to look like in '12, they just aren't saying anything to the public yet. No doubt their estimate will be refined as time goes on, but their philosophy is to spend everything they reasonably can on payroll. Loria hasn't superseded anything, they expect to be an average payroll team in '12 and going forward and have been saying that for years.

 

Barring some sort of calamity, they will be.

The MLB average payroll in 2011 is $93 million. Next year it'll likely be a bit over $95 million. If you expect Loria to increase payroll to $95 million (MLB average) you live in lala land. Expect a payroll between $75 million and $80 million. Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I have no problem with Loria if he spends $75 million next year. The issue I have in this thread is with your contention that the 2012 payroll will be league average ($95 million).

The MLB average payroll in 2011 is $93 million. Next year it'll likely be a bit over $95 million. If you expect Loria to increase payroll to $95 million (MLB average) you live in lala land. Expect a payroll between $75 million and $80 million. Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I have no problem with Loria if he spends $75 million next year. The issue I have in this thread is with your contention that the 2012 payroll will be league average ($95 million).

 

Youre looking it it the wrong way. Break mlb into 3 groups with 10 teams. 10 highest payroll, 10 middle payroll, 10 lowest payroll. The marlins will be somewhere in the middle group. I think they will be on the lower end of this group and if revenues permit they will spend more.

 

I still see miami as an event city. So attendance will be high in 2012 and drop down until the new norm is found. Itll be higher than it has been in JRS but we wont be seeing a full house every season all season.

 

I responded to what Dots WROTE. He keeps writing he expects the Marlins to be an "average" payroll team and I take it to mean he means MLB average. if he means something else then he should write more clearly. As it stands, I responded because I find what he said to be ridiculous. If he had written what you just wrote (underlined), then I wouldn't have responded because your payroll expectation is a reasonable one and is one that I agree with.