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Something that just doesn't make sense to me


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The Stanton situation.

 

Do you think a decision has been made by the owner regarding Stanton ? If you do, and think its to trade him and not offer a contract, do you think it's Selig and his office that have held up any trade ?

 

Personally I could see Selig as the holdup, but why would he delay it ? Right now the Marlins are more or less considered a black-eye in MLB. I understand that you want to retain some star-power on the team, but is this in the best interest of the Marlins and their future ? Is it also in the best interest of MLB ?

 

Right now, the Marlins image is about as low as it can go. Wouldn't it be better for the future to just go ahead and get rid of Stanton and let the franchise completely start fresh, and see if the ownership of Mr. Loria can finally get it right ? If you prolong the inevitable trade of Stanton, it will only put the Marlins image back down at the bottom, and any image rebuilding that is done between now & when Stanton is traded, will be lost, and the Marlins image (and also that of MLB) will be tarnished and the rebuilding will have to start anew. It will set baseball back all over again. If its done now, then its a completely fresh start for Loria.

 

Doesn't that make a little more sense than what is occurring now , if as has been widely speculated that Stanton is not going to be offered a contract by the Marlins and will be traded ?

 

And if you are going to keep him, wouldn't you try your best now to get that extension done ? I have read that they haven't been pursuing this now that the season has started.

 

I'm just confused over what their vision is, it just is not making a lot of sense.

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I don't think he will be traded.

 

And, no, it is not in the team's best interest to trade him and "start fresh".

 

What is the point, to try to have success in a window before your young talent gets signed for $$$?

 

What about Yelich, Fernandez? Isn't the hope that they become great players and in turn garner big saleries?

 

If you think the Marlins' image to the rest of MLB and it's fans is bad now, how would it look if we traded Stanton, regardless of the return, which would probably be names that are not familiar to most fans?

 

.

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I don't think he will be traded.

 

And, no, it is not in the team's best interest to trade him and "start fresh".

 

What is the point, to try to have success in a window before your young talent gets signed for $$$?

 

What about Yelich, Fernandez? Isn't the hope that they become great players and in turn garner big saleries?

 

If you think the Marlins' image to the rest of MLB and it's fans is bad now, how would it look if we traded Stanton, regardless of the return, which would probably be names that are not familiar to most fans?

 

.

 

But that is my point, do it now, take the image hit while you are already at your lowest, and then you have a chance to build something around Yelich & Fernandez.

 

That is, if they are going to trade him.

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I don't think he will be traded.

 

And, no, it is not in the team's best interest to trade him and "start fresh".

 

What is the point, to try to have success in a window before your young talent gets signed for $$$?

 

What about Yelich, Fernandez? Isn't the hope that they become great players and in turn garner big saleries?

 

If you think the Marlins' image to the rest of MLB and it's fans is bad now, how would it look if we traded Stanton, regardless of the return, which would probably be names that are not familiar to most fans?

 

.

 

But that is my point, do it now, take the image hit while you are already at your lowest, and then you have a chance to build something around Yelich & Fernandez.

 

That is, if they are going to trade him.

I just think, why not build around Stanton with players like Yelich and Fernandez? Maybe I'm just projecting my own wish for them to keep Stanton, but I think it would be a mistake to trade him.

 

.

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Poptart how where you able to distance yourself from the franchise ? I tried doing that the last couple of months, but just couldn't do it.

 

I mean I still get that sinking feeling in my stomach when I watch the games, and can't shake being into the team.

 

I'm asking an honest question, because I want to "quit them" as they said in Brokeback Mountain, but I just can't do it. It sure would be better for my blood pressure :haha

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I don't get why people think Selig will ever block a trade. He never has, and he's a former owner himself.

 

I really don't think there is a consensus in the organization as to what they want to do with Stanton. My guess is that at some point the team will offer him some kind of extension, he will turn it down, and then they will trade him. This could happen any time in the next 18 months.

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I don't get why people think Selig will ever block a trade. He never has, and he's a former owner himself.

 

I really don't think there is a consensus in the organization as to what they want to do with Stanton. My guess is that at some point the team will offer him some kind of extension, he will turn it down, and then they will trade him. This could happen any time in the next 18 months.

 

I agree with everything you say here GM. If they make Stanton a legit offer for an extension and he doesn't sign it.....Loria won't look like the bad guy when they deal him. I just hope that if they do indeed deal Stanton that it is to an American League team.

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The Marlins are going to do the most short-sighted, idiotic thing they can do. In this situation they are going to surround Stanton with nothing and he will have a down year destroying his trade value. They will offer a contract at some point that Stanton would be insane to accept. He will get moved for some B level prospects some point after because he will have a depressed value. He will go on to have a great career.

 

Its kind of like the whole firesale thing to begin with. In Loria's short sighted view of making money, he missed the longer term benefit off not poisoning the fanbase and destroying the value of the team. Loria will hold onto the team for a couple of years and sell it for far less than he could have got if he had just kept it somewhat intact. He will wait for a few years when the team is still awful, the attendance is averaging below 5k a game, the tv ratings are terrible, the merchandise sales have plummeted to sell so he doesnt have to share in the sale price. The team's value will be rock bottom and then he will sell because thats the kind of businessman he is: stupid.

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Stanton can't be destroyed by Loria or anyone else.

 

Stanton's greatest value to Loria may well be to deal him 2.5 years from now at the non-waiver deadline. Loria pays relative peanuts for him in the meantime and realizes good value in a trade while committing to nothing, as in 6 or 8 or 10 years of big bucks.

 

As for how stupid Loria is, the franchise is worth about 500 mill. Probably has about 200 mill of debt. So Loria is worth about 300 mill. Tell me again how stupid he is.

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Stupid baseball-wise?

 

I don't buy it. He won a WS in '03. He spent in '04 and big in '05 (Delgado) to try and keep winning. Fans didn't show up. He had no choice but to dump payroll.

 

Without a stadium there was no way to sign Cabrera to long-term big bucks, they got what they could. With a stadium in sight, he signed Hanley. He signed JJ. He signed Nolasco. With a built stadium, he committed to about 200 mill in FA contracts.

 

Nobody predicted that the '12 team would bomb, starting in June after a bad start in April and a great May. The red ink was already flowing hot and heavy by June and he started pulling the plug in July. No owner in his right mind is going to allow a 47 mill loss to turn into an even bigger loss the next year. And bigger yet the following year with the back-loaded contracts.

 

So he dumped the losing group to start over.

 

People can object to how this guy or that guy was handled, but he's done what he could to try to win. And has been smart enough to cut his losses when it hasn't worked.

 

All that aside, the single most important thing he's done is get the stadium built, something nobody else could do in almost two decades of trying.

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Yes, stupid baseball wise. He didn't have to wait for Cabrera to hit arbitration to extend him. He should have done so before he did. He's making the same mistake with Stanton. He doesn't have to keep the FO responsible for 9 straight seasons of missing the playoffs but he is. He didn't have to set last seasons payroll by what the attendance projected to be but he did. He's responsible for shitty signings like Buck and Bell.

 

He's an idiot in baseball. Not financially or life. He is a Yale graduate, after all. But he is very stupid in baseball.

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Stanton can't be destroyed by Loria or anyone else.

 

Stanton's greatest value to Loria may well be to deal him 2.5 years from now at the non-waiver deadline. Loria pays relative peanuts for him in the meantime and realizes good value in a trade while committing to nothing, as in 6 or 8 or 10 years of big bucks.

 

As for how stupid Loria is, the franchise is worth about 500 mill. Probably has about 200 mill of debt. So Loria is worth about 300 mill. Tell me again how stupid he is.

 

Why are you allowed to voice an opinion on this?

 

Anyway, if Loria thinks that a Stanton trade is going to be inevitable, it makes much more sense to trade him now. He's still relatively healthy and the fact that he's not in the midst of his arbitration years makes him that much more valuable.

 

The Marlins lose leverage in a trade as soon as other teams recognize a few years down the road that the Marlins will be unable to sign Stanton to an extension.

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Stupid baseball-wise?

 

I don't buy it. He won a WS in '03. He spent in '04 and big in '05 (Delgado) to try and keep winning. Fans didn't show up. He had no choice but to dump payroll.

 

Well, he didn't build the 2003 team entirely. That was half Dombrowski. His FO was not able to make the right moves in 2004 and 2005 to keep the team competitive. I don't blame him for having a firesale after 2005, but that doesn't mean that his FO was making smart baseball moves in 2004 and 2005.

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Stupid baseball-wise?

 

I don't buy it. He won a WS in '03. He spent in '04 and big in '05 (Delgado) to try and keep winning. Fans didn't show up. He had no choice but to dump payroll.

 

Without a stadium there was no way to sign Cabrera to long-term big bucks, they got what they could. With a stadium in sight, he signed Hanley. He signed JJ. He signed Nolasco. With a built stadium, he committed to about 200 mill in FA contracts.

 

Nobody predicted that the '12 team would bomb, starting in June after a bad start in April and a great May. The red ink was already flowing hot and heavy by June and he started pulling the plug in July. No owner in his right mind is going to allow a 47 mill loss to turn into an even bigger loss the next year. And bigger yet the following year with the back-loaded contracts.

 

So he dumped the losing group to start over.

 

People can object to how this guy or that guy was handled, but he's done what he could to try to win. And has been smart enough to cut his losses when it hasn't worked.

 

All that aside, the single most important thing he's done is get the stadium built, something nobody else could do in almost two decades of trying.

 

 

Stupid baseball-wise?

 

I don't buy it. He won a WS in '03. He spent in '04 and big in '05 (Delgado) to try and keep winning. Fans didn't show up. He had no choice but to dump payroll.

 

Without a stadium there was no way to sign Cabrera to long-term big bucks, they got what they could. With a stadium in sight, he signed Hanley. He signed JJ. He signed Nolasco. With a built stadium, he committed to about 200 mill in FA contracts.

 

Nobody predicted that the '12 team would bomb, starting in June after a bad start in April and a great May. The red ink was already flowing hot and heavy by June and he started pulling the plug in July. No owner in his right mind is going to allow a 47 mill loss to turn into an even bigger loss the next year. And bigger yet the following year with the back-loaded contracts.

 

So he dumped the losing group to start over.

 

People can object to how this guy or that guy was handled, but he's done what he could to try to win. And has been smart enough to cut his losses when it hasn't worked.

 

All that aside, the single most important thing he's done is get the stadium built, something nobody else could do in almost two decades of trying.

 

I get that certain people go overboard with the Loria hate and you like to play devil's advocate, but your support is rather absurd at times.

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Without a stadium there was no way to sign Cabrera to long-term big bucks, they got what they could. With a stadium in sight, he signed Hanley. He signed JJ. He signed Nolasco. With a built stadium, he committed to about 200 mill in FA contracts.

 

Nobody predicted that the '12 team would bomb, starting in June after a bad start in April and a great May. The red ink was already flowing hot and heavy by June and he started pulling the plug in July. No owner in his right mind is going to allow a 47 mill loss to turn into an even bigger loss the next year. And bigger yet the following year with the back-loaded contracts.

 

So he dumped the losing group to start over.

 

People can object to how this guy or that guy was handled, but he's done what he could to try to win. And has been smart enough to cut his losses when it hasn't worked.

 

All that aside, the single most important thing he's done is get the stadium built, something nobody else could do in almost two decades of trying.

 

They could have signed Cabrera if they had done so sooner. He would have been affordable if they extended him in his club controlled years. The Marlins are making the same mistake with Stanton right now.

 

Nobody expected the 2012 team to bomb, but plenty (including myself) knew it was flawed and not a playoff caliber team. It certainly seemed obvious that the spending was a bit careless. The Bell signing was clearly a mistake the second it was made. He was right to dump the payroll in the end, but he's not a great baseball mind if he actually thought that the 2012 roster was playoff caliber.

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He couldn't extend Cabrera on the crummy revenue stream from Joe Robbie. He may not be able to extend Stanton on what is turning out to be a crummy revenue stream from the new park.

 

You make projections and act on them, and he was out to make a big splash in '12. It didn't work. A lot of people didn't think Heath Bar was a good idea, but nobody predicted that he would totally implode. So it goes, sometimes.

 

As for the FO, you go with people you trust. Should he hold them to a higher standard or dump them? Perhaps, but he's calling the shots.

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He couldn't extend Cabrera on the crummy revenue stream from Joe Robbie. He may not be able to extend Stanton on what is turning out to be a crummy revenue stream from the new park.

 

You make projections and act on them, and he was out to make a big splash in '12. It didn't work. A lot of people didn't think Heath Bar was a good idea, but nobody predicted that he would totally implode. So it goes, sometimes.

 

As for the FO, you go with people you trust. Should he hold them to a higher standard or dump them? Perhaps, but he's calling the shots.

 

You can't just credit him for his successes and then say "oh well" and "he's calling the shots" for his failures.

 

He's fired countless managers now, yet we still have the same GM who put together the teams that led to all those managers being fired. Perhaps he shouldn't trust these people...

Or perhaps he should let those people do their jobs more often instead of making moves, himself.

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He absolutely could have bought out Cabrera's arbitration and extended him if he had done so early. Cabrera wouldn't near have cost $153 million in 2004 and 2005 and it would have been one of the most tradeable contracts in MLB if Loria had to dump salary down the road.

 

He could have afforded it. He and his FO were just short-sighted in their thinking.

 

The 2012 big splash didn't work because the money was poorly spent and didn't nearly cover the holes that needed to be filled in order to make the playoffs. Many people saw it as a flawed team from a beginning. Heath Bell was a bad signing, implosion or not. A team doesn't spend that much cash even on a good Heath Bell with that many question marks remaining in more important areas (rotation and line-up).

 

They assumed that too many thinks would go right: Hanley becoming Hanley again, Gaby hitting even though he's had some terrible halves of play, Morrison staying healthy and turning into a productive player, Johnson being an ace again after a bad injury, Buck not being worthless, Zambrano being serviceable.

 

Nobody should be surprised that the 2012 did so poorly.

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He couldn't extend Cabrera on the crummy revenue stream from Joe Robbie. He may not be able to extend Stanton on what is turning out to be a crummy revenue stream from the new park.

 

You make projections and act on them, and he was out to make a big splash in '12. It didn't work. A lot of people didn't think Heath Bar was a good idea, but nobody predicted that he would totally implode. So it goes, sometimes.

 

As for the FO, you go with people you trust. Should he hold them to a higher standard or dump them? Perhaps, but he's calling the shots.

 

How did he manage to give Ramirez a contract extension?

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Poptart how where you able to distance yourself from the franchise ? I tried doing that the last couple of months, but just couldn't do it.

 

I mean I still get that sinking feeling in my stomach when I watch the games, and can't shake being into the team.

 

I'm asking an honest question, because I want to "quit them" as they said in Brokeback Mountain, but I just can't do it. It sure would be better for my blood pressure :haha

 

the re-branding definitely made it easy. I don't look at those uniforms and think "this is the team I've rooted for for years"

being a gambler helps, too. I'm rooting for like 3 different teams every day.

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Poptart how where you able to distance yourself from the franchise ? I tried doing that the last couple of months, but just couldn't do it.

 

I mean I still get that sinking feeling in my stomach when I watch the games, and can't shake being into the team.

 

I'm asking an honest question, because I want to "quit them" as they said in Brokeback Mountain, but I just can't do it. It sure would be better for my blood pressure :haha

 

the re-branding definitely made it easy. I don't look at those uniforms and think "this is the team I've rooted for for years"

being a gambler helps, too. I'm rooting for like 3 different teams every day.

Yet you still post on a Marlins board. Odd.

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