http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/57603/love-em-or-hate-em-the-marlins-continue-to-develop-players

 

 

"Going for high-risk, high-reward players, then bringing them to the big leagues early remains an approach that might or might not work out for the Marlins. The team clearly has an eye for premium talent. But it also has a penchant for roster teardowns, so much so that Stanton's name's already been mentioned in trade rumors, even though he can't become a free agent until after the 2016 season.

Stanton's already a star, Fernandez might become one soon, and Yelich might not be far behind. The next step is to keep them all in orange long enough for any of that to matter."

 

 

:fit

The problem is that the second that player we developed begins to cost us any money, we trade them to another team so they can reap the advantage of the hard work we put into that player....and we get second rate prospects in return.

 

As a Marlins fan, it's hard to make an emotional investment when I know every promising player will be traded away the second we can, and none will be around for any substantial time...

I really don't know if this team has an eye for talent or that they can spot the lost young prospect.

 

Maybe at a time I bought into that.

 

Now I lean more towards their business model pushes them in that direction where they need to take a chance on a young player and simply ride the wave of some work out/some don't

 

At this point it seems like their success rate is pretty low for guys targeted both in the draft and trade - granted it's going to be low for most organizations, just the nature of the game

 

For as many players they have brought in over the past decade it's almost sort of sad they are sitting on only a few top level prospects at this time

 

In 2003 they drafted 50 players - 4 touched the majors with no one really being worth much

 

In 2004 they drafted 50 players - 6 touched the majors - Jason Vargas has been serviceable elsewhere and Tank was OK here - I like Brett Carroll, but yeah....

 

In 2005 they drafted 55 players - 9 touched the majors - combined war of 3.1 - this was the great first round pitcher draft ... man it would have been nice to have a top 10 pick in that draft, anyhow even with what they had it didn't work out so well .... the highlights are Vostad, West, LoMO

 

In 2006 they drafted 52 players - 9 have made the majors - a pair of first rounders didn't work out although some still have hope for Cogs (hey, I do...) .... cousins, raynor, etc ........ hopefully Sanabia can turn into a contributor

 

2007 was a lot better - 50 players drafted and only 5 who've made a MLB appearance, but 2 of them are definite keepers ... Stanton & Cishek are enough to carry this class to a successful view .... Dominguez at 12 doesn't excite, but I wouldn't say it was a bad pick given he showed MLB level talent for at least half the game .... however, that is cancelled out by moving him for a no point rental in carlos lee .... I'm not a big believer in Dominguez, but would rather see him getting starts than Polanco

 

2008 - 50 drafted, 5 have made it up .... still somewhat early on this class, but it looks like Hand is the only one who could potentially contribute ...... skipworth at 6, why couldn't the giants have taken the CA kid at 5 and left the FL kid for the marlins at 6?!

 

From here it starts to get difficult to judge some of the clases, but here goes

 

2009 - is there anyone to really get that excited about?

 

2010 - this looks better with Yelich, Realmuto,

 

2011 - Fernandez looks legit and hopefully someone emerges with him

 

2012 - I really like Heaney and hope someone can join him as well

 

So things definitely do look like they are getting better and some of the players they got back do provide some hope .... however, this team didn't have one of the worst systems in the majors a couple years ago simply because they "promoted everyone good" .... they also missed a ton

 

2003 was magic and was accomplished with a lot of young players and traded pieces ..... 2006 was a lot of fun and had much of the same formula

 

It's awesome to see a guy like Hanley come in and flourish, willis take over a city, cabrera show such flash, stanton hit bombs, cody ross be a gritty fan favorite, dan uggla show as a HR bombing rule 5 exception .... they've even had a string of relievers come in for a quick career boost and with fans more apt to really embrace those stories you kind of minimize all the misses it took to find those guys and that how when the dust settles you're still not really in that good of a position

The Marlins for the first half of the Loria/Beinfest tenure were flat out BAD at figuring out whom to draft.

 

It still amazes me that Beinfest still has a damn job given how HORRIBLE he has done overall when it comes to drafting talent, for a supposed 'small market' club, its kinda important to do this. Luckily it looks so far like they are doing better at least in the first round or two lately. Still doesnt really make up for the exciting work he did for the better part of the first half of this run.

 

The way I see Stanton: Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

 

Give them credit for taking Fernandez in round 1 and finally not doing a stupid job of picking pitchers in round 1. Let's hope they dont ruin him like they have so many others by rushing them.

I like beinfest. I understand the Cabrera trade was horrific for us. But besides that he does well given his payroll constraint.

Stanton is going to be traded.

This front office is so bad right now that they've created a situation in which the only way to get better is to do the Miguel Cabrera trade all over again, hoping the prospects turn into better players this time.

 

No long-term 3B, no long-term 2B, SS is questionable, C (and I know a lot of people like Brantly on here) is questionable, etc., etc., etc. Pitching is questionable as well because they're all unproven and Fernandez is the only one who projects to be special. You can never have enough pitching.

Yup.

 

And they will probably screw up the Stanton trade just like they did the Cabrera trade.

 

 

Imagine if they had a real front office that could properly scout amateur talent and then properly develop said talent.

 

The Dominguez trade was so stupid, it was their attempt to appease the fan base and say, ya we are really in this race...

 

Make no mistake, Dominguez sucks, but he is at least a real 3b and who knows, with proper development could actually turn into something passable.

I like beinfest. I understand the Cabrera trade was horrific for us. But besides that he does well given his payroll constraint.

 

 

Based on what exactly? With the payroll issues, shouldnt you at least not suck at developing and drafting young, controllable players?

 

 

question

Yeah .... I like Beinfest, but I'm not quite sure why ..... I know there was some good dealing in 2003 and I've defending the team a lot for the couple years after that championship - but they didn't execute well when the drew the team down and really never seemed to meet what you need to do to build a team like the one you want

 

Let's go back to 2005 when they promoted Michael Hill .... this was also the year of the pitcher heavy first round - scanning transactions and trades it looks like they did a good job of consistently finding short term help to the bullpen, have constantly been searching for stopgaps in the rotation due to prospects not panning out or being hurt and generally have gotten poor value when quality players leave

 

 

 

I like beinfest. I understand the Cabrera trade was horrific for us. But besides that he does well given his payroll constraint.

 

 

Based on what exactly? With the payroll issues, shouldnt you at least not suck at developing and drafting young, controllable players?

 

 

question

They never wanted to spend any money on the draft. They took Skipworth because he was cheap. They took Chad James because he was cheap. They may end up doing OK with Heaney, but he signed below slot and the Marlins played hardball with him the whole time. Beinfest/Loria also love HS players since they are cheaper, and until last year we hadn't drafted a college player with our 1st round pick since 2006.

I like beinfest. I understand the Cabrera trade was horrific for us. But besides that he does well given his payroll constraint.

 

 

Based on what exactly? With the payroll issues, shouldnt you at least not suck at developing and drafting young, controllable players?

 

 

question

They never wanted to spend any money on the draft. They took Skipworth because he was cheap. They took Chad James because he was cheap. They may end up doing OK with Heaney, but he signed below slot and the Marlins played hardball with him the whole time. Beinfest/Loria also love HS players since they are cheaper, and until last year we hadn't drafted a college player with our 1st round pick since 2006.

 

 

Ok. You cant be cheap in both the draft and the major league roster. If you are cheap in both, you dont care about winning.

 

And Beinfest supposedly runs the ship on baseball stuff. He has failed, whether it be drafting high school kids or college kids, failure is still failure.

I think the only way to say you like Beinfest at this point is to convince yourself that he's a decent GM whose hand is often forced into poor decisions by Loria and his meddling ways. If you believe that Beinfest is a product of his boss backing him into corners then you can say Beinfest is good enough.

 

Even though my patience is running thin with him, I myself tend to buy into this. I feel bad for Beinfest. I wish I could see how he'd have built this team had we had a different owner in his time here.

 

With all that said, I'm also ready to see what a new GM could do here.

I think the only way to say you like Beinfest at this point is to convince yourself that he's a decent GM whose hand is often forced into poor decisions by Loria and his meddling ways. If you believe that Beinfest is a product of his boss backing him into corners then you can say Beinfest is good enough.

 

Even though my patience is running thin with him, I myself tend to buy into this. I feel bad for Beinfest. I wish I could see how he'd have built this team had we had a different owner in his time here.

 

With all that said, I'm also ready to see what a new GM could do here.

 

I see what you saying and i don't think Admins entirely to blame and the other thing this highlights Is that Loria has to take some blame as well if he was meddling and shouldn't be excused from critics. Not directed at you Silver.

 

I don't think he's a crook and don't buy into that thought. I just think he's a poor baseball owner. I gave him chances and supported him on this board through the majority of 2012.

 

The basis of why I'm tired off this crap is this and it really should atleast make people say " hey I might not agree with it but he has a point."

 

The current FO has had almost a decade without a post season appearance.

Drafting has been spotty at best with more misses than hits. We have been unable to win with a low payroll and we have been unable to win with a high payroll. We have gone through multiple managers and coaches. By not making a move in the FO shows that you either don't feel it was their fault, Deciding to blame the players, managers and coaches Or Loria l oria knows that he had more input in these teams then the FO did. If its the second the owner should take the blame and be criticized for it and a good owner would try to make it right. If its the first, then he should accept criticism because players, coaches and managers have been the ever changing part of this team. The FO has not changed and has been the only constant over the years.

 

Some of my other thoughts...:

 

I thought some of the moves In the offseason were needed, Hanley had worn out his welcome, Anibal was UFA, Infante was had one year left, JJ was still a big question mark and Mark B was a expendable and a Luxury of a high payroll, Bell doesn't even need mentioned.

 

One phrase that no Marlin fan wanted to ever hear again and the sure way to piss people off was "firesale". My opinion Reyes is the one traded that you can look at as the most questionable. Reyes had the most years on the deal and would have shored up the SS for a while. I think keeping Reyes would have taken the sting out of the trades. Still a Star player that is exciting to watch, would have helps this team win some games over the next few years and keeps Stanton Maybe alittle happier. Yes his contract got ridiculous but at some point you have to make that balance between financial goals and customer happiness, and how Fee agents view your franchise. Do I completely think if we had Reyes, opinions would have changed, I don't know and probably not completely, but I'm sure it would have been easier to swallow.

 

I really do appreciate the beautiful ballpark even though I'm not down there to enjoy it whenever I want but I am now skeptical and on edge about out future Untill a significant change in the FO happens( meaning someone with no ties to the Marlins currently) takes over or Loria sells the team, or we start making playoffs.

I also like what Adam Conley has done and he shouldn't be far off.

 

Don't really know yet on Heaney and chad James won't do much.

 

The real potential studs are yelich, marisnick, ozuna, and Dietrich. They could all be up this year.

 

But yes, surprising Beinfest still has a job but he's also had to deal with all of Lorias bullshit. Of course I would love the team with the most hated owner on the planet.

Also the marlins draft success looks to be going upwards after a rough stretch. With Fernandez, Heaney, Yelich etc..

I always forget about Adam Conley, just been reading a few scouting reports on him.

 

In his first AA appearance, he went 5 innings, gave up 1 hit and had 8 strikeouts with 0 walks.

 

Be interesting to see how he develops this season in the minors.

I think the only way to say you like Beinfest at this point is to convince yourself that he's a decent GM whose hand is often forced into poor decisions by Loria and his meddling ways. If you believe that Beinfest is a product of his boss backing him into corners then you can say Beinfest is good enough.

 

Even though my patience is running thin with him, I myself tend to buy into this. I feel bad for Beinfest. I wish I could see how he'd have built this team had we had a different owner in his time here.

 

With all that said, I'm also ready to see what a new GM could do here.

 

I see what you saying and i don't think Admins entirely to blame and the other thing this highlights Is that Loria has to take some blame as well if he was meddling and shouldn't be excused from critics. Not directed at you Silver.

 

I don't think he's a crook and don't buy into that thought. I just think he's a poor baseball owner. I gave him chances and supported him on this board through the majority of 2012.

 

The basis of why I'm tired off this crap is this and it really should atleast make people say " hey I might not agree with it but he has a point."

 

The current FO has had almost a decade without a post season appearance.

Drafting has been spotty at best with more misses than hits. We have been unable to win with a low payroll and we have been unable to win with a high payroll. We have gone through multiple managers and coaches. By not making a move in the FO shows that you either don't feel it was their fault, Deciding to blame the players, managers and coaches Or Loria l oria knows that he had more input in these teams then the FO did. If its the second the owner should take the blame and be criticized for it and a good owner would try to make it right. If its the first, then he should accept criticism because players, coaches and managers have been the ever changing part of this team. The FO has not changed and has been the only constant over the years.

 

Some of my other thoughts...:

 

I thought some of the moves In the offseason were needed, Hanley had worn out his welcome, Anibal was UFA, Infante was had one year left, JJ was still a big question mark and Mark B was a expendable and a Luxury of a high payroll, Bell doesn't even need mentioned.

 

One phrase that no Marlin fan wanted to ever hear again and the sure way to piss people off was "firesale". My opinion Reyes is the one traded that you can look at as the most questionable. Reyes had the most years on the deal and would have shored up the SS for a while. I think keeping Reyes would have taken the sting out of the trades. Still a Star player that is exciting to watch, would have helps this team win some games over the next few years and keeps Stanton Maybe alittle happier. Yes his contract got ridiculous but at some point you have to make that balance between financial goals and customer happiness, and how Fee agents view your franchise. Do I completely think if we had Reyes, opinions would have changed, I don't know and probably not completely, but I'm sure it would have been easier to swallow.

 

I really do appreciate the beautiful ballpark even though I'm not down there to enjoy it whenever I want but I am now skeptical and on edge about out future Untill a significant change in the FO happens( meaning someone with no ties to the Marlins currently) takes over or Loria sells the team, or we start making playoffs.

 

 

You nailed everything perfectly. This is many of the points I've been saying for a while. Thanks.

 

Loria isn't a crook, he's just somewhat stupid.

 

The offseason deals weren't all crazy, they just happened to shock the fanbase yet again and this fanbase just can't take so much abuse. Understandable from both sides though.

Wish Bily Beane was our General Manager...ughhhhhhh

Wish Bily Beane was our General Manager...ughhhhhhh

 

 

I wish Andrew Friedman is our General Manager

Wish Bily Beane was our General Manager...ughhhhhhh

 

I like Beinfest, but me too.