I would agre with that, but the guys at C, 2B, and SS really dont contribute.

 

I'll give you catcher and second base, they're hitting .218 and .230 respectively as a bunch [both with OPS around or below .650].

 

Shortstop - you're right, Hech had the insanely hot week to start the year and he's hitting .278 cause of it, but it's not like since then he's batted .200. From game 6 until today, he's batted .262. It's not the worst thing in the world. He doesn't light the world on fire, he doesn't draw walks. But if anything, he puts the ball in play and he has a little speed, albeit he's not a good baserunner. He gets the ball into the gap in right center at times, and that is an automatic triple for him. I'm actually starting to like his approach, just needs to get timing down better.

 

And I also don't understand how defensive metrics have him as a bad defender cause I just can't see it. Same with Stanton, he's got a negative UZR. Weird. But, I digress. I can live with Hech at short. We do need to have a better offensive player at first base. We need a little bit better offense at second base, which Dietrich can hopefully provide. As for catcher - honestly, if Salty just improved his defense, I could live with the lack of offense. I think I'd rather have Mathis in there getting the majority of starts right now just because of how bad Salty is defensively. Catcher is a defense first position - any offense you get from there is a bonus. No, I'm not saying he can hit .195 and strike out 60% of his at bats, but .230 with a little bit of pop [Olivo like, perhaps?]. Works for me. Olivo's 2007 year, for instance. .237 with 16 homers. Defensively, he wasn't amazing, but not my point - that kind of bat with Mathis-level defense.

 

Or we can just steal Yadier Molina.

I know sandoval would be a good addition but you have to imagine that the Marlins will give Mcgehee another year. Also if V-Mart is willing to come here and play first you have to jump at that. His offense is so good that it will make up for his defense or any short stints on the DL.

I know sandoval would be a good addition but you have to imagine that the Marlins will give Mcgehee another year. Also if V-Mart is willing to come here and play first you have to jump at that. His offense is so good that it will make up for his defense or any short stints on the DL.

 

I agree, honestly. He doesn't even really have a consistent injury history. He missed 2012 with a torn ACL [hey, shit happens], and the other significant DL time was 2008. Fractured left thumb in 2010. Outside of those 3 years and not including this year, every full season [2004-2013], he's averaged 150 games. Mostly as a DH last couple years, but it's not as if first base is the moon. If Jason Giambi could play first base ...

Realistically i hope our infield is C Salty, 1B Martinez, 2B Dietrich/Kike platoon, SS Hech, 3B Mcgehee.

I'll give you catcher and second base, they're hitting .218 and .230 respectively as a bunch [both with OPS around or below .650].

 

Shortstop - you're right, Hech had the insanely hot week to start the year and he's hitting .278 cause of it, but it's not like since then he's batted .200. From game 6 until today, he's batted .262. It's not the worst thing in the world. He doesn't light the world on fire, he doesn't draw walks. But if anything, he puts the ball in play and he has a little speed, albeit he's not a good baserunner. He gets the ball into the gap in right center at times, and that is an automatic triple for him. I'm actually starting to like his approach, just needs to get timing down better.

 

And I also don't understand how defensive metrics have him as a bad defender cause I just can't see it. Same with Stanton, he's got a negative UZR. Weird. But, I digress. I can live with Hech at short. We do need to have a better offensive player at first base. We need a little bit better offense at second base, which Dietrich can hopefully provide. As for catcher - honestly, if Salty just improved his defense, I could live with the lack of offense. I think I'd rather have Mathis in there getting the majority of starts right now just because of how bad Salty is defensively. Catcher is a defense first position - any offense you get from there is a bonus. No, I'm not saying he can hit .195 and strike out 60% of his at bats, but .230 with a little bit of pop [Olivo like, perhaps?]. Works for me. Olivo's 2007 year, for instance. .237 with 16 homers. Defensively, he wasn't amazing, but not my point - that kind of bat with Mathis-level defense.

 

Or we can just steal Yadier Molina.

 

Hechavarria's line since game 6 of the year is .262/.295/.336. If not for another high BABIP hot streak over his last ~80 or so ABs, it would be even worse.

 

He is not an acceptable player under any circumstance. While there are two SS worse offensively than him this year, they each have at least 100 fewer ABs. It is the one position where an upgrade absolutely HAS to happen.

I agree, honestly. He doesn't even really have a consistent injury history. He missed 2012 with a torn ACL [hey, shit happens], and the other significant DL time was 2008. Fractured left thumb in 2010. Outside of those 3 years and not including this year, every full season [2004-2013], he's averaged 150 games. Mostly as a DH last couple years, but it's not as if first base is the moon. If Jason Giambi could play first base ...

 

Exactly, 1B isn't necessarily the most demanding position.

I think the V-mart thing is just a pipe dream as there's nowhere for jones to go

Hechavarria's line since game 6 of the year is .262/.295/.336. That is not acceptable under any circumstance. If not for another high BABIP hot streak over his last ~80 or so ABs, it would be even worse.

 

He is not an acceptable player under any circumstance.

 

.253/.284/.312 if you remove his last "80 or so at bats", so yes, a little bit worse.

 

I accept that because of his defense, kinda like we settled for Alex Gonzalez' inept offense because he played such great defense. They're very similar players, honestly.

I liked the thought of signing Jones, but in typical Marlins fashion they ignored splits and common sense and tried to force him into the fulltime role. Its also the reason Saltalamacchia has been so bad.

Hechavarria's line since game 6 of the year is .262/.295/.336. If not for another high BABIP hot streak over his last ~80 or so ABs, it would be even worse.

 

He is not an acceptable player under any circumstance. While there are two SS worse offensively than him this year, they each have at least 100 fewer ABs. It is the one position where an upgrade absolutely HAS to happen.

 

I'm not trying to be his biggest fan because I'm not, but you can't just take away his hot streaks for the convenience of your argument. You could easily say he's not that good with his current numbers anyway.

Its also the reason Saltalamacchia has been so bad.

 

I can agree with this because his career numbers vs lefties [like Jones] have proven he can't hit them very well. But when your other option is Jeff Mathis, you're kinda SOL. If we could have also nabbed a David Ross, that would have been swell.

I liked the thought of signing Jones, but in typical Marlins fashion they ignored splits and common sense and tried to force him into the fulltime role. Its also the reason Saltalamacchia has been so bad.

 

I wasnt really discounting the #s so much as pointing out he had a very high BABIP over that time(.344 IIRC), skewing them.

I wonder if Salty would be better against LHP if he hit them from the left side. Maybe he just sucks at batting righty.

Hechavarria's line since game 6 of the year is .262/.295/.336. If not for another high BABIP hot streak over his last ~80 or so ABs, it would be even worse.

 

He is not an acceptable player under any circumstance. While there are two SS worse offensively than him this year, they each have at least 100 fewer ABs. It is the one position where an upgrade absolutely HAS to happen.

 

Isn't it convenient how you are always having to remove his hot streaks to prove your point? His numbers are his numbers from day one to today. He did have those first 6 games and he did have the last 80 at bats and he helped the team win in those games. You can't pick and choose.

 

Apart from that his defense is just fine. More than just fine, (screw the metrics) he is really good defensively. SS is first and foremost a defensive position which is why he is and will remain our SS. Unless he starts hitting .230 again like last year he is not a problem. Could we upgrade at SS? Of course. Is it our biggest problem? No, it isn't.

 

The most immediate upgrade must be made at 1st base. If they are going to trade away young pitching or spend money on FA, then that's where they should focus. A middle of the order bat with adequate defense at 1st base would change this team completely. Like someone has been saying on this forum lately, imagine our team with Jose Abreu at 1st base hitting behind Stanton! We would be a much different team.

 

The other option in my opinion would be to find a middle of the order bat at 3rd base and moving Casey to 1st base. However, a quality 3rd basemen is much more difficult to find these days.

I wonder if Salty would be better against LHP if he hit them from the left side. Maybe he just sucks at batting righty.

 

I've thought the same thing. Also, his bat speed looks slow on TV. I think he might benefit from going to a smaller bat.

 

Disclaimer:

 

I am not a hitting coach, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn!

Isn't it convenient how you are always having to remove his hot streaks to prove your point? His numbers are his numbers from day one to today. He did have those first 6 games and he did have the last 80 at bats and he helped the team win in those games. You can't pick and choose.

 

Apart from that his defense is just fine. More than just fine, (screw the metrics) he is really good defensively. SS is first and foremost a defensive position which is why he is and will remain our SS. Unless he starts hitting .230 again like last year he is not a problem. Could we upgrade at SS? Of course. Is it our biggest problem? No, it isn't.

 

The most immediate upgrade must be made at 1st base. If they are going to trade away young pitching or spend money on FA, then that's where they should focus. A middle of the order bat with adequate defense at 1st base would change this team completely. Like someone has been saying on this forum lately, imagine our team with Jose Abreu at 1st base hitting behind Stanton! We would be a much different team.

 

The other option in my opinion would be to find a middle of the order bat at 3rd base and moving Casey to 1st base. However, a quality 3rd basemen is much more difficult to find these days.

 

I am not removing them. Even WITH those hot streaks, he is among the worst offensive SS in baseball, and THE worst by a comfortable margin when compared to players at the same position with comparable or more at bats.

 

And for the record, the irony of you saying "you cant ignore those hot streaks just to prove your point!' then ignoring all the defensive metrics that say he is a poor defensive player is not lost on me.

I am not removing them. Even WITH those hot streaks, he is among the worst offensive SS in baseball, and THE worst by a comfortable margin when compared to players at the same position with comparable or more at bats.

 

And for the record, the irony of you saying "you cant ignore those hot streaks just to prove your point!' then ignoring all the defensive metrics that say he is a poor defensive player is not lost on me.

 

I don't disagree with the fact that he could be better on offense. I never have. As I said, yes we could improve at the position, but I just don't feel that it's the most desperate position for us to improve.

 

The reason I discount the defensive metrics is because I believe them to be flawed. I didn't cherry pick the metrics, I just discount them altogether. It's a little bit different. I will back up the fact that he is a very good defender from all of the reports from our scouts, and other teams scouts, and other baseball FO personnel raving about his defense.

Defensive metrics are so sketchy, though. You can not tell me that Stanton is a negative defender this year. Fangraphs is telling us that, though. How?

Sketchy as they may be, I will take them 7 days a week, 365 days a year, over someones eyes.

 

I would also argue the current defensive metrics arent quite as flawed as people make them out to be.

You have no way of knowing that.

 

V-Mart has played under 200 games in the field 2010-2014 (that includes projecting up some games this year).

 

The idea that he is going to play 150 games at 1B next year is insane.

I know sandoval would be a good addition but you have to imagine that the Marlins will give Mcgehee another year. Also if V-Mart is willing to come here and play first you have to jump at that. His offense is so good that it will make up for his defense or any short stints on the DL.

 

So why not sign Panda and move McGehee to 1B - astronomically a better idea than a 36 year old V-Mart who has barely played in the field for 5 seasons.

So why not sign Panda and move McGehee to 1B - astronomically a better idea than a 36 year old V-Mart who has barely played in the field for 5 seasons.

 

So my question again, what do you do with Jones and his $5m salary?

I'm not. The rumor is that they'd be interested in spending the money on pitching. Signing pitchers long-term when they're in their 30's has proven to be the riskiest investment in the sport.

 

I would say V-Mart at 36 to play 1B for 2-3 years at a significant amount of money is just as bad if not worse than a deal with a starting pitcher.

 

They need to go all in 15-16 while they still have Stanton, he is just not the guy (assuming its an either/or scenario and he is preventing them from getting a top end SP or middle infield help.

While I agree that defensive metrics aren't perfect, I don't think they're nearly as flawed as people make them out to be.If there is a player who is rated poorly by almost every defensive metric, then I think it's safe to say that that player is a poor defensive player. Some players get bad ratings from one metric and average or even good from another. If that's the case, I can see how you would disagree with the idea of defensive metrics. That being said, I honestly do have a hard time "seeing" why Hech is viewed so poorly by defensive metrics, but I trust the math over my untrained eye. Stanton, on the other hand, has an awesome arm but takes some weird routes and makes some pretty questionable decisions in right. More than that though, I think the reason his DEF rating on Fangraphs is so low is due to the positioning that has him playing a softball right-center rather than a baseball right. Some defensive metrics calculate value by comparing hits and outs on balls in play in a certain zone that "belongs" to the fielder. Right fielders who play straight up will get to balls that Giancarlo won't simply based on where they start an opposing hitter's at bat. In that regard, the defensive metrics are flawed. The shortstop comparisons, however, are valid. Hech simply doesn't get to as many balls as other guys do, likely based on a poor first step. If you really think about it, it kind of makes sense regarding his poor baserunning too. His first step in general is poor, whether he is on base or in the field. The reason we see so many "Hech of a plays" is because he has to make a sprawling, diving try on a play that a guy like Cozart or Simmons would just bend down and backhand.

 

All of this being said, though...and this is big coming from me, as you guys will notice:

 

Hech does not need to be replaced, he just needs to be coached better. I feel like the fact that he makes things look good keeps coaches from trying to change his approach defensively. He clearly has the tools to be a good if not great defensive shortstop, he just needs to be quicker to the ball.

 

EDIT: Holy shit, I wrote too much.

So my question again, what do you do with Jones and his $5m salary?

 

Why can't they just keep him for the bench (where he'd probably be pretty good exclusively dealing with RHP). There is no requirement they have to trade him. It would be nice, but someone would have to assume the salary which is unlikely, so it makes more sense just to keep him. At $75 million, there is plenty of money to get a front line SP and a legitimate infield bat - assuming they trade Cishek for another young infielder.