3 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

Meyer/Cabrera/Sixto/Eury and Watson/Sanchez/Bleday/Salas. Only untouchables in the entire organization are Sandy, Rogers, and Jazz.

The trades in this thread are extremely light (except with Pablo, anything with Pablo would work although the Diamondbacks are in a rebuild so they need more team control than Pablo imo). The Blue Jays traded Austin Martin and Simeon Richardson for Jose Berrios. Ketel is better than Berrios on the field and on the accounting statements. It's going to take 2 massive prospects, a good third player, and throw-ins. This is a close to Yelich situation once you account for Ketel's contract, position versatility, and general inflation of the last few years in baseball.

A lot of you guys in this thread are kidding yourselves about Ketel. He hits the crap out of the ball (which has been noted with excellent hard hit rates), makes negligible money, and playing "slightly below average" defense at 3-4 positions on the field isn't a negative or deal breaker. He doesn't have screaming red flags. He's 28. He's perfect. He's averaged a 5.2 WAR per 600 PA the last 3 seasons. It scales up if you use 2019/2021 and give him a pandemic mulligan (we all deserve one). He's exactly what they need. They should run to get him, because 20 other teams in baseball would be too. And the good thing with Arizona is, the Marlins can theoretically get him WITHOUT Pablo as they likely need team control versus production now. Trading Pablo to fix an offensive problem makes sense, but that also creates a problem by needing some sort of innings eater and praying Luzardo/Cabrera/Sixto all work out quickly. Avoiding that secondary issue is great if we're talking a minor league trade.

I'd take this much much further also as competition for Ketel would be nuts. David Peralta (1/$8) is dead money to them so agree to take him and his contract as an incentive (he's still alright and would be a good bench guy, especially on platoon splits), and the Marlins also need a lefty reliever. They have old friend Caleb Smith (1/$2 + 2 years) who has been bounced from their rotation. He'd be a perfect 2nd lefty in the bullpen. That lessons a blow if trading two top 50 prospects.

Something like this:

Ketel, D. Peralta, C. Smith 

Meyer, Watson, Elisier, Burdick/Morisette/Nunez, McCambley/Fitterer, and then 1-2 outside top 20 prospects/reclamation projects like Neider or Isan (this is also the D-Backs shedding around $40m which they can reinvest into FA which is a very important part of the deal with Peralta)

That's going to be tough for others in baseball to beat with two top end prospects, a viable right now SP with control, and some other good flyers. That's the price you pay if you refuse to spend money in free agency.

 

To note, I'm not saying this is the best idea (you have money! Sign Correa or Bryant!!!), but it's certainly a good one. It's important to look around baseball and see what others are doing (see Berrios trade), as well as not fall into the trap of over valuing your own prospects. I like the Marlins farm system a lot, but I also liked Hermida, Maybin, Miller, Brinson, and Diaz (not Harrison, was always dumb), as well as guys like Kingery, Calhoun, and Kieboom who all stink. The Marlins are young and controlled at the MLB level, with a bottom 5 payroll even with Sandy/Avisail deals. They can blow out a few guys, still have a middle of the pack farm (good 2022 picks coming), and invest heavily into rebuilding it as guys graduate. It's just time to swing for the fences with the current team. They have nearly everything they need at the MLB level and a guy like Ketel is the biggest missing piece. The Yelich trade is a perfect example, except the Marlins are now the ones needing Yelich. Let's not flub that up because we want to keep a 7th good SP and Watson might be great in 2026. Time to make winning moves.

Why not dream big......trade for Ketel Marte AND sign Correa or Bryant.

 

And help pay for it all by selling "Ketel" corn in the concession stands.  lol

I believe we can acquire Reynolds and Mullins too, so Reynolds or Marte or Mullins ?

Edited December 8, 20214 yr by taiwanmarlin

These trades for a Stallings and Wendle are nice and all.

But they dont really do dick when it comes to actually competing for the playoffs in 2022 or beyond.

Once this lockout ends, if the Marlins dont get the fuck out there and do at least one of the following:

- Sign a top tier free agent (Correa, Story, Castellanos) 

- Trade for a top tier controlled position player that will cost significant prospects/young players

Then they arent fucking serious about winning and it doesnt matter what the fuck Jeter and company say.

 

As it stands Marlins are somewhere around 70 million in payroll.  Thats stupid low and doesnt show any real commitment to winning, their upper level farm system isnt strong enough to carry a small payroll AND win in 2022.

Right now there is no actually feared bat in the lineup, that has to be addressed before they even entertain thoughts of competing for anything of consequence in 2022.   I think they are lacking a big time back end bullpen piece as well.

They have great starting pitching, but unless they are going to start riding starters like its the 80s and 90s again, big fucking deal. 

I know I know, be patient!  Its been the mantra of the Jeter era.  Move the goalposts to some future point in time and when it doesnt happen, lets move them a bit further down also!

Put up or shut up.

2 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

As it stands Marlins are somewhere around 70 million in payroll

65 million including arby estimates and renewals 

14 hours ago, SonOfJack said:

65 million including arby estimates

That's a whole lot of Beef N' Cheddars.

13 hours ago, Das Texan said:

These trades for a Stallings and Wendle are nice and all.

But they dont really do dick when it comes to actually competing for the playoffs in 2022 or beyond.

Once this lockout ends, if the Marlins dont get the fuck out there and do at least one of the following:

- Sign a top tier free agent (Correa, Story, Castellanos) 

- Trade for a top tier controlled position player that will cost significant prospects/young players

Then they arent fucking serious about winning and it doesnt matter what the fuck Jeter and company say.

 

As it stands Marlins are somewhere around 70 million in payroll.  Thats stupid low and doesnt show any real commitment to winning, their upper level farm system isnt strong enough to carry a small payroll AND win in 2022.

Right now there is no actually feared bat in the lineup, that has to be addressed before they even entertain thoughts of competing for anything of consequence in 2022.   I think they are lacking a big time back end bullpen piece as well.

They have great starting pitching, but unless they are going to start riding starters like its the 80s and 90s again, big fucking deal. 

I know I know, be patient!  Its been the mantra of the Jeter era.  Move the goalposts to some future point in time and when it doesnt happen, lets move them a bit further down also!

Put up or shut up.

I generally agree, they need to make a massive bat acquisition, and likely 1-3 other moves to round out the roster depending on what else they do. Garcia, Stallings, Wendle, and Head are a nice start though. If they do nothing more, I have no words of what they are thinking.

I'd double-down on CF, and do something like this. I don't foresee a Correa/Story/Bryant splash.

1 - Ketel/Peralta/Caleb for a massive prospect haul - Meyer, Watson, Eliser, Burdick, and friends < - This adds $16+m in payroll

2 - B. Marsh/Other prospects - Pablo/Cooper/Bass < - This clears $8m + in payroll. They get Pablo for Marsh and salary dumps

So the net payroll increase is around $8+m, and that's likely scaled down a little from your projection, this is likely mid-70s.

Stallings, Fortes/Jackson
Aguilar (Anderson/Rojas back up here)
Jazz 
Rojas, Berti 
Anderson, Wendle
J. Sanchez, Peralta
Ketel, Marsh
Garcia, De La Cruz

Sandy, Rogers, ______, Luzardo, Cabrera
Floro, Bender, Pop, Head, Sixto (120+ IP)
Bleier, Caleb (100+ IP), Okert

Top 10 prospects after this insanity - Eury, Bleday, Eder, Salas, Mack, Fulton, I. Lewis, Nunez, Morisette, Cappe, etc. (plus Lewin), plus whatever else you get from the Angels and excellent 2022 draft picks. It's not amazing, but also not bad. The thing for me here is, they have years and years and years of control at MLB level and a bottom 5 payroll. This can be rebuilt in 1-2 off-seasons as literally no one is going to need to come up to the MLB level besides backups.

So overall, that team offensively is REALLY deep. It is injury proofed a starting player or two at all positions besides catcher, and once you add in the DH, plenty of PA for everyone as they can more around Ketel and Anderson. I'd anticipate Marsh getting 450-500+ PA here easily, as well as Wendle getting 400+. That's fine. 

The negative is, you just shed 4 (including Thompson) of your top 9 SP for next year in this hypothetical, Eder is hurt, and you also shed secondary guys like Nicolas. They'll be relying on Holloway/Neidert/Poteet/Garrett/others to turn in some innings if there is a major injury. So this is where as an organization, you realize you have a mid 70s payroll and go out and sign 1-2 pitchers. Likely an innings eater # 4 SP and a luxury reliever upgrade (this is your "big time" bullpen piece). They can likely manage this under $90m, and have ammo to get something done at the deadline if need be.

This is what I want to see. A belief in the team. They have a very good core they need to plop something on the top.

All of us should stop being fans forever if they don't make aggressive win-now moves like this, because they could not be in better shape with the young top end pitching and suitable core. The Florida Panthers - hockey in Florida! - cannot have a larger payroll than the Marlins.

Put up or shut up.

1 hour ago, MarlinsLou said:

I generally agree, they need to make a massive bat acquisition, and likely 1-3 other moves to round out the roster depending on what else they do. Garcia, Stallings, Wendle, and Head are a nice start though. If they do nothing more, I have no words of what they are thinking.

I'd double-down on CF, and do something like this. I don't foresee a Correa/Story/Bryant splash.

1 - Ketel/Peralta/Caleb for a massive prospect haul - Meyer, Watson, Eliser, Burdick, and friends < - This adds $16+m in payroll

2 - B. Marsh/Other prospects - Pablo/Cooper/Bass < - This clears $8m + in payroll. They get Pablo for Marsh and salary dumps

So the net payroll increase is around $8+m, and that's likely scaled down a little from your projection, this is likely mid-70s.

Stallings, Fortes/Jackson
Aguilar (Anderson/Rojas back up here)
Jazz 
Rojas, Berti 
Anderson, Wendle
J. Sanchez, Peralta
Ketel, Marsh
Garcia, De La Cruz

Sandy, Rogers, ______, Luzardo, Cabrera
Floro, Bender, Pop, Head, Sixto (120+ IP)
Bleier, Caleb (100+ IP), Okert

Top 10 prospects after this insanity - Eury, Bleday, Eder, Salas, Mack, Fulton, I. Lewis, Nunez, Morisette, Cappe, etc. (plus Lewin), plus whatever else you get from the Angels and excellent 2022 draft picks. It's not amazing, but also not bad. The thing for me here is, they have years and years and years of control at MLB level and a bottom 5 payroll. This can be rebuilt in 1-2 off-seasons as literally no one is going to need to come up to the MLB level besides backups.

So overall, that team offensively is REALLY deep. It is injury proofed a starting player or two at all positions besides catcher, and once you add in the DH, plenty of PA for everyone as they can more around Ketel and Anderson. I'd anticipate Marsh getting 450-500+ PA here easily, as well as Wendle getting 400+. That's fine. 

The negative is, you just shed 4 (including Thompson) of your top 9 SP for next year in this hypothetical, Eder is hurt, and you also shed secondary guys like Nicolas. They'll be relying on Holloway/Neidert/Poteet/Garrett/others to turn in some innings if there is a major injury. So this is where as an organization, you realize you have a mid 70s payroll and go out and sign 1-2 pitchers. Likely an innings eater # 4 SP and a luxury reliever upgrade (this is your "big time" bullpen piece). They can likely manage this under $90m, and have ammo to get something done at the deadline if need be.

This is what I want to see. A belief in the team. They have a very good core they need to plop something on the top.

All of us should stop being fans forever if they don't make aggressive win-now moves like this, because they could not be in better shape with the young top end pitching and suitable core. The Florida Panthers - hockey in Florida! - cannot have a larger payroll than the Marlins.

Put up or shut up.

I dont know if I'd necessarily target both Marsh and Marte, but I like the idea conceptionally of doubling down on two CF bats and I do think the Angels are who the Marlins have been talking on on the AL side, it makes too much sense and the Angels have giant pressure to field a winner and they need pitching badly.  I'm not really sure I'm sold on Marsh, but its a deal that makes a lot of sense.

If Marte is the other big bat, I'm perfectly ok with Marte, go make it happen.  I still think you are probably one middle of the order bat (I dont see Marte as a 3-5 hitter) short of where you need to be, but it improves the team significantly overall, you just better be damn right on the pitching prospects you trade in that deal, because you are relying heavily now on pitching and defense to win games!

5 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

I dont know if I'd necessarily target both Marsh and Marte, but I like the idea conceptionally of doubling down on two CF bats and I do think the Angels are who the Marlins have been talking on on the AL side, it makes too much sense and the Angels have giant pressure to field a winner and they need pitching badly.  I'm not really sure I'm sold on Marsh, but its a deal that makes a lot of sense.

If Marte is the other big bat, I'm perfectly ok with Marte, go make it happen.  I still think you are probably one middle of the order bat (I dont see Marte as a 3-5 hitter) short of where you need to be, but it improves the team significantly overall, you just better be damn right on the pitching prospects you trade in that deal, because you are relying heavily now on pitching and defense to win games!

Sure, and that's where you fix it - with free agent veteran starters who get to throw to Stallings, in a pitcher's park, with an above average defense. There is payroll here to burn. Maybe you can also keep Elisier in that hypothetical above and that would help a lot.

Marsh hits the ball very, very hard, but did have an ugly BABIP. He's hard to peg, but it was his first time at the bigs. Someone like Ketel though is a no brainer, but if they also want to find another CF using smaller assets than Ketel, so be it. Even someone like Kevin Keirmaier would make sense, just absorb the salary.

And that's the point here - there are so many options for them to improve and make a cohesive team, if they don't do it, we should all stop being fans. The only thing that is going to stop them is their own incompetence and/or cheapness. Garcia/Stallings/Wendle/Head is a good start, but much more is needed. 5+ projected WAR in new player acquisitions. 

11 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

Sure, and that's where you fix it - with free agent veteran starters who get to throw to Stallings, in a pitcher's park, with an above average defense. There is payroll here to burn. Maybe you can also keep Elisier in that hypothetical above and that would help a lot.

Marsh hits the ball very, very hard, but did have an ugly BABIP. He's hard to peg, but it was his first time at the bigs. Someone like Ketel though is a no brainer, but if they also want to find another CF using smaller assets than Ketel, so be it. Even someone like Kevin Keirmaier would make sense, just absorb the salary.

And that's the point here - there are so many options for them to improve and make a cohesive team, if they don't do it, we should all stop being fans. The only thing that is going to stop them is their own incompetence and/or cheapness. Garcia/Stallings/Wendle/Head is a good start, but much more is needed. 5+ projected WAR in new player acquisitions. 

Oh absolutely.  They should be adding a veteran starter to the staff anyway and should have last year if only for mentorship roles.

Go get an older established starter throw some bank at him and tell him to make your starts and teach this staff how to be big league pitchers.  You have to cover the innings and the Marlins being cheap fucks lead to the uglyness of September in terms of pitching coming off 2020.  

Fuck go fucking sign Rodon and really do something. 

25 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

Oh absolutely.  They should be adding a veteran starter to the staff anyway and should have last year if only for mentorship roles.

Go get an older established starter throw some bank at him and tell him to make your starts and teach this staff how to be big league pitchers.  You have to cover the innings and the Marlins being cheap fucks lead to the uglyness of September in terms of pitching coming off 2020.  

Fuck go fucking sign Rodon and really do something. 

You mean draft Carlos Rodon and not Tyler Kolek, which every other organization in baseball would have done?

I think Stallings is that guy for the "teacher role," but there are plenty of older guys (B. Anderson, Cueto) they could bring in for cheap and probably get them 100+ decent enough innings. I'm not sure if I want to go multi-year with any starter (if anyone, I thought Jon Gray would be a really good project to get him out of Colorado), but I think this can be a cheaper acquisition and really invest on bats. I am willing to live and die with Sandy, Rogers, Luzardo, Cabrera, and Sixto personally (as well as Holloway/Neidert/Poteet/Garret/finding a new Thompson which they seem good at) if the bats get fixed. It's a bonus if Pablo, Elisier, and Meyer are still around to me and they can solve the bats in other manners. I also have confidence something nice is coming with Eder/Fulton/Eury in the farm in 2-3 years. Plus I find it likely they use one of their top two picks in 2022 on a college SP.

But hey, if Pablo and Meyer are each centerpieces for club controlled bats and they can throw all the money at Rodon, sign me up. Options are endless. I'm not going to be mad until they don't do something. They have time, but I want the organization to realize this is it. They've been building for this offseason, and if they F it up they only have themselves to blame. 

17 hours ago, Das Texan said:

These trades for a Stallings and Wendle are nice and all.

But they dont really do dick when it comes to actually competing for the playoffs in 2022 or beyond.

Once this lockout ends, if the Marlins dont get the fuck out there and do at least one of the following:

- Sign a top tier free agent (Correa, Story, Castellanos) 

- Trade for a top tier controlled position player that will cost significant prospects/young players

Then they arent fucking serious about winning and it doesnt matter what the fuck Jeter and company say.

 

As it stands Marlins are somewhere around 70 million in payroll.  Thats stupid low and doesnt show any real commitment to winning, their upper level farm system isnt strong enough to carry a small payroll AND win in 2022.

Right now there is no actually feared bat in the lineup, that has to be addressed before they even entertain thoughts of competing for anything of consequence in 2022.   I think they are lacking a big time back end bullpen piece as well.

They have great starting pitching, but unless they are going to start riding starters like its the 80s and 90s again, big fucking deal. 

I know I know, be patient!  Its been the mantra of the Jeter era.  Move the goalposts to some future point in time and when it doesnt happen, lets move them a bit further down also!

Put up or shut up.

I think we all agree here that these are moves that should be made, or else it's all a waste.   And nobody is moving the goalposts - not sure why you keep saying people are.  Myself and others have given them through the end of the offseason.  If they don't make a few more big moves, it's time to be out/watch from afar.  Obviously no moves can be made now during the lockout.  Let's hope they're having some serious conversations about spending big to make the moves they need to make not only to compete, but to show fans they actually mean business.

On 12/8/2021 at 1:44 PM, rmc523 said:

Why not dream big......trade for Ketel Marte AND sign Correa or Bryant.

 

And help pay for it all by selling "Ketel" corn in the concession stands.  lol

And they could sell said popcorn at a store called The Ketel Marte.

10 minutes ago, mystikol87 said:

And they could sell said popcorn at a store called The Ketel Marte.

They do need something in the old Taste of Miami section lol.

25 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

They do need something in the old Taste of Miami section lol.

I’m just gonna say what everyone is thinking.... They need to put an Arby’s in that bitch.

3 minutes ago, marlinsmaniac said:

I’m just gonna say what everyone is thinking.... They need to put an Arby’s in that bitch.

 

So YOU'RE the one that keeps Arby's in business lol.

11 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

So YOU'RE the one that keeps Arby's in business lol.

I actually haven’t eaten there in quite a while so I wouldn’t say I keep them in business, I just keep them close to my heart lol

I don’t get the hate from the public, everything there (other than the Roast beef ironically) is really good. I went “plant based” for health reasons so there really isn’t anything there for me anymore but I do miss it lol 

3 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

You mean draft Carlos Rodon and not Tyler Kolek, which every other organization in baseball would have done?

I think Stallings is that guy for the "teacher role," but there are plenty of older guys (B. Anderson, Cueto) they could bring in for cheap and probably get them 100+ decent enough innings. I'm not sure if I want to go multi-year with any starter (if anyone, I thought Jon Gray would be a really good project to get him out of Colorado), but I think this can be a cheaper acquisition and really invest on bats. I am willing to live and die with Sandy, Rogers, Luzardo, Cabrera, and Sixto personally (as well as Holloway/Neidert/Poteet/Garret/finding a new Thompson which they seem good at) if the bats get fixed. It's a bonus if Pablo, Elisier, and Meyer are still around to me and they can solve the bats in other manners. I also have confidence something nice is coming with Eder/Fulton/Eury in the farm in 2-3 years. Plus I find it likely they use one of their top two picks in 2022 on a college SP.

But hey, if Pablo and Meyer are each centerpieces for club controlled bats and they can throw all the money at Rodon, sign me up. Options are endless. I'm not going to be mad until they don't do something. They have time, but I want the organization to realize this is it. They've been building for this offseason, and if they F it up they only have themselves to blame. 

haha, i still have never understand what genius in their front office convinced Mike Hill to make that pick.

That was a fireable draft pick tbh.  

6 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

haha, i still have never understand what genius in their front office convinced Mike Hill to make that pick.

That was a fireable draft pick tbh.  

Probably Loria cause high schooler sign cheaper or whatever.

3 hours ago, marlinsmaniac said:

I actually haven’t eaten there in quite a while so I wouldn’t say I keep them in business, I just keep them close to my heart lol

I don’t get the hate from the public, everything there (other than the Roast beef ironically) is really good. I went “plant based” for health reasons so there really isn’t anything there for me anymore but I do miss it lol 

I'm joking obviously lol.  I don't think I've been to one since high school/13 years lol.

5 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

I'm joking obviously lol.  I don't think I've been to one since high school/13 years lol.

Wow you're old.

(But not really)

18 minutes ago, Michael said:

Wow you're old.

(But not really)

Lol, I know I'm around the same age as a few of us here including you I think haha.

This team needs a whole new lineup, they just need to make as many moves as possible. 

22 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Lol, I know I'm around the same age as a few of us here including you I think haha.

Sounds about right.

6 hours ago, marlinsmaniac said:

I actually haven’t eaten there in quite a while so I wouldn’t say I keep them in business, I just keep them close to my heart lol

I don’t get the hate from the public, everything there (other than the Roast beef ironically) is really good. I went “plant based” for health reasons so there really isn’t anything there for me anymore but I do miss it lol 

Used to love Arby's, especially the fries and beef n' cheddar. I've been vegan for 8+ years, though, and for ethics reasons -- still a fatass LOL. 

I'll be doing Arby's tonight. There's like 3 in Miami. If any of you want to meet greatness, you've got a 33.3% chance at like 10:30