Lots of news out there this morning

[Marlins2003]

Have to take my kid to school but there's stories in the SS, PBP, Roto, and others.

 

Kranitz new pitching coach - Iowa Cubs a terrific team...Kranitz = youth movement

 

Payroll could go down to as low as $50 million

 

Baltimore knows who we want for delgado but hasn't spoken with Fish FO. Do they read minds?

 

Mets in the hunt for Delgado with Mr. X and good pitching prospects

 

Rockies want Lo Duca and Mota

[Admin]

I really like nothing that is posted here.

[Fishfan79]

Here is the SS

 

Mets are eager to deal for Delgado

 

By Mike Berardino

and Juan C. Rodriguez Staff writers

Posted November 18 2005

 

Even as the Marlins finally zeroed in on a new pitching coach, their competitors continued taking aim on their roster.

 

There were indications Thursday the Mets were ratcheting up their pursuit of Marlins first baseman Carlos Delgado. The pending acquisition of young slugger Xavier Nady from the Padres would give the Mets another attractive trade chip to send the Marlins' way.

 

The key to any deal with the Mets, however, would be Venezuelan right-hander Yusmeiro Petit, New York's top pitching prospect. The Marlins also could ask for some combination of young right-hander Aaron Heilman, first baseman Mike Jacobs or middle infielder Chris Woodward.

 

Marlins catcher Paul Lo Duca, who appears available as well, has drawn interest from the Rockies, but his $12.5 million remaining obligation the next two seasons could be a deterrent. The Rockies also like reliever Guillermo Mota, whose salary could climb past $3 million next year through arbitration.

 

Rockies outfielder Admin Bigbie is expendable, affordable and a trade target of the Marlins dating to last summer.

 

Dumping salary remains the Marlins' primary offseason focus. According to one baseball source with knowledge of their situation, the Marlins' payroll could dip to $50 million next season, even lower than previously thought.

 

That would be a decrease of almost 25 percent from the franchise-record $66 million they spent to open last season.

 

"Fifty [million] is their absolute point of pain," the source said. "They are in dire straits."

 

Money has grown so tight that most of the Marlins' top scouts and player-development staffers received annual raises of 1 percent or less. The team canceled several international scouting trips that had been scheduled.

 

Meanwhile, the Marlins appeared set to hire Rick Kranitz away from the Cubs as their pitching coach. According to two industry sources, Kranitz was weighing an offer from the Marlins and was expected to accept it.

 

Former pitching coach Mark Wiley, frustrated with the slow pace of the search, removed his name from consideration Monday.

 

"I really believe that the relationship between a pitching coach and a manager has to be one that they're comfortable with in order to do the best job possible," Wiley said. "I just felt like for myself and the organization, it just seemed like it was taking quite a while and it was time to put it to rest."

 

Wiley had a 90-minute phone conversation with new manager Joe Girardi shortly after he was hired Oct. 20, but their communication had been extremely limited over the past month.

 

The Mariners and Royals tried to hire Wiley in October, but he opted to wait. In part, that was due to family considerations, but two of Wiley's associates said Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria asked him to hold tight until Girardi was on board.

 

Pitchers Dontrelle Willis and Josh Beckett made calls in support of Wiley, but the Marlins did not insist he be rehired.

 

Girardi made overtures toward former Yankees teammate Jimmy Key before turning to Kranitz, who has worked in the Cubs organization for more than two decades. The pitching coach at Triple-A Iowa the past two seasons, Kranitz, 47, has drawn praise from Cubs pitchers Kerry Wood, Ryan Dempster and Glendon Rusch for his work on rehab assignments.

 

Kranitz has never been a big-league pitching coach but he was the Cubs' bullpen coach in 2002, Girardi's last season as a catcher with the team.

 

a Cubs bullpen coach (whom have a horrible bullpen). Over a pitching coach that just took an inconsistent pitcher and turned him into a Cy Young Canidate

[Fishfan79]

Here is your post

 

Orioles interested in Delgado

 

By Joe Capozzi

 

Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

 

Friday, November 18, 2005

 

Marlins first baseman Carlos Delgado could replace Rafael Palmeiro in Baltimore if Orioles officials ? currently divided over the idea ? agree to give up a top pitching prospect, a baseball source said Thursday.

 

The Marlins and Orioles have not yet discussed a trade, but Baltimore's front office has talked about it since at least the general managers' meetings in California last week.

 

"Baltimore is seriously debating whether to get Delgado, but they are split over whether to pursue it,'' said the source, who was briefed on Baltimore's strategies.

 

The Marlins would want a starting pitcher from Baltimore such as left-hander Adam Loewen, the Orioles' first-round draft pick (fourth overall) in 2002 or right-hander Hayden Penn.

 

Loewen was 10-8 with a 4.12 ERA in 2005 for Class A Frederick (Md.).

 

Penn was Baltimore's fifth-round draft choice in 2002. He was 3-2 with a 6.34 ERA in eight major-league starts last season.

 

Florida also could ask for right-handed reliever Chris Ray, who was 1-3 with a 2.66 ERA in 41 games for the Orioles in 2005.

 

Baltimore also is interested in center fielder Juan Pierre, but Delgado is considered a higher priority.

 

The Marlins are trying to rebuild their bullpen as well as bolster a starting rotation that includes just two veterans: left-hander Dontrelle Willis and right-hander Josh Beckett.

 

Florida also would like to avoid paying the $48 million that Delgado is owed in the next three years from the four-year, $52 million contract he signed in January. It was not known whether Baltimore would ask Florida ? which is facing a financial squeeze because prospects for a new stadium have dimmed ? to assume some of that contract.

 

The Marlins also have told teams they may start Josh Willingham in left field, a move that would let them start Jeff Conine at first base if they trade Delgado and re-sign Conine.

 

Willingham was a backup catcher and reserve outfielder in 2005, batting.304 with no homers and four RBI in 23 games. He was out June 30 to Sept. 12 because of a stress fracture in his left forearm.

 

Delgado hit.301 with 33 home runs and 115 RBI for the Marlins in 2005, his first season in the National League after 11 seasons with Toronto.

 

Delgado and his agent, David Sloane, recently expressed frustration over mounting trade rumors. Delgado said during the season that owner Jeffrey Loria assured the first baseman that he would not be traded.

 

Delgado would replace Palmeiro, a free agent who will not be re-signed by the Orioles. Palmeiro collected his 3,000th hit July 15, making him one of four players with 3,000 hits and 500 home runs. But on Aug. 1 he was suspended for 10 days for using stanozolol, a banned steroid.

 

 

If Willingham is going to LF, where is Cabrera going? He cant go to 3B unless we get rid of Mikey too. Perhaps Mikey to 1B?

 

Looks like an offer of a young not ready pitcher along with a few crappy players. I bet Julio since the fish liked him

 

But I think your question is very valid 2003. How do they know what we want without us even meeting?

[JonDigital]

this organization is pathetic. sell this team to someone who has money please.

[Admin]

I really hope this is just more dooms day scenarios by local writers. And what happened to that wealthy guy from Minnesota?

 

We are definantly in rebuilding mode if we are planning to start Josh Willingham.

[FreshFish]

the trend is clear. Sell Sell Sell

 

I wonder what is the long term outlook for Loria. The organization seems to be in survival mode.

[Fish4Life]

My two cents says this:

 

Im sick of all these rumors!! I mean I saw one say "Pierre traded to cubs!" and I have nothing about this deal being "done" since. Yea I know its cool to keep up with rumors involving your team but for us its not worth it! Sure we are trying to cut a little salary but WHO DIDNT KNOW THAT?? We do it EVERY YEAR!!! Last year "We need to cut salary" and we come out of nowhere and get Dlegado!

 

To all the fish fans on this board stop reading this garbage and just wait till day one of the spring when our rosters are printed, Then we can all say on how good of bad our offseason was! I bet we still have are stud players! I mean sure there's talks but Delgado will still be a marlin next season and if hes not SO BE IT! If delgado gets traded will you not be a marlins fan anymore? OF COURSE NOT! We will still cheer on this team even if its filled with a bunch of kids!

 

GO FISH!!!! :notworthy

[MarlinatPenn]

The Marlins are in a tough spot. They're at the bottom of attendance, they don't get parking, skybox or concessions revenues, etc.... It's been said before.

 

But I can't blame them. Go young, what the hell. Field players that are hungry and motivated and inexpensive. I can't fault them. Last year's team was great on paper and did crap. I don't see the value in spending 30% of your salary on one player. If you can get an organization's top prospect and more than I can't get too mad.

[Marlins2003]

the trend is clear. Sell Sell Sell

 

I wonder what is the long term outlook for Loria. The organization seems to be in survival mode.

 

 

This isn't 1998, this is more like 2004.

 

In order to plan ahead to lock up the three core players - Willis, Beckett and Cabrera - the team needs a season where they jettison every dollar they can and stock up on up and coming players.

 

Some of the stuff these writers are fantasizing about may turn out over the next few years to be very smart moves by the front office.

 

Getting rid of Mota, who is arb-eligible, is a good thing. Villone should be shopped at whatever price. LoDuca would be fine if we could sign "a" Molina type player. Chipper Jones just restructured his contract with the Braves, I have to wonder if Mike Lowell wants to stay in Miami enough to do the same thing? I could see him at first, and have opined as much in the past, especially if the right pieces come our way. To get to $50 million something drastic has to be done up the middle, including Pierre, Gonzalez and you-know-who.

 

I'm excited. I think this is a good thing.

 

If even two of three - Aguila, Willingham, Hermida - do well in 2006 this team will get markedly better quickly. If two of our three ready for primetime young pitchers - Vargas, Olsen, Johnson - show themselves capable of pitching in the bigs, it's a great start towards a string of winning seasons.

 

Driving back from dropping my kid off I was thinking about the fact that in college sports there is 100% turnover every four years but somehow UM (for example) seem to find a way to field competitive teams in just about every sport. This year's Heat team looks markedly different than last year's and must stay under the luxury cap, that every year pro football teams swap out half their players.

 

Billy Beane trades off experience for kids all the time and he's considered a god in some baseball circles. He spent $55 million last season with almost $20 million of that committed to two players - Kendall and Chavez.

 

The key right now is to bite the bullet and start. Players are being signed elsewhere, and the sooner the Marlins start, the larger the talent pool they'll have to work from.

[Fishfan79]

My two cents says this:

 

Im sick of all these rumors!! I mean I saw one say "Pierre traded to cubs!" and I have nothing about this deal being "done" since. Yea I know its cool to keep up with rumors involving your team but for us its not worth it! Sure we are trying to cut a little salary but WHO DIDNT KNOW THAT?? We do it EVERY YEAR!!! Last year "We need to cut salary" and we come out of nowhere and get Dlegado!

 

To all the fish fans on this board stop reading this garbage and just wait till day one of the spring when our rosters are printed, Then we can all say on how good of bad our offseason was! I bet we still have are stud players! I mean sure there's talks but Delgado will still be a marlin next season and if hes not SO BE IT! If delgado gets traded will you not be a marlins fan anymore? OF COURSE NOT! We will still cheer on this team even if its filled with a bunch of kids!

 

GO FISH!!!! :notworthy

 

 

I wouldnt stop being a fan, but I would be pissed at the 65 dollar jersey in my room now would be useless :mischief2

 

 

the trend is clear. Sell Sell Sell

 

I wonder what is the long term outlook for Loria. The organization seems to be in survival mode.

 

 

This isn't 1998, this is more like 2004.

 

In order to plan ahead to lock up the three core players - Willis, Beckett and Cabrera - the team needs a season where they jettison every dollar they can and stock up on up and coming players.

 

Some of the stuff these writers are fantasizing about may turn out over the next few years to be very smart moves by the front office.

 

Getting rid of Mota, who is arb-eligible, is a good thing. Villone should be shopped at whatever price. LoDuca would be fine if we could sign "a" Molina type player. Chipper Jones just restructured his contract with the Braves, I have to wonder if Mike Lowell wants to stay in Miami enough to do the same thing? I could see him at first, and have opined as much in the past, especially if the right pieces come our way. To get to $50 million something drastic has to be done up the middle, including Pierre, Gonzalez and you-know-who.

 

I'm excited. I think this is a good thing.

 

If even two of three - Aguila, Willingham, Hermida - do well in 2006 this team will get markedly better quickly. If two of our three ready for primetime young pitchers - Vargas, Olsen, Johnson - show themselves capable of pitching in the bigs, it's a great start towards a string of winning seasons.

 

Driving back from dropping my kid off I was thinking about the fact that in college sports there is 100% turnover every four years but somehow UM (for example) seem to find a way to field competitive teams in just about every sport. This year's Heat team looks markedly different than last year's and must stay under the luxury cap, that every year pro football teams swap out half their players.

 

Billy Beane trades off experience for kids all the time and he's considered a god in some baseball circles. He spent $55 million last season with almost $20 million of that committed to two players - Kendall and Chavez.

 

The key right now is to bite the bullet and start. Players are being signed elsewhere, and the sooner the Marlins start, the larger the talent pool they'll have to work from.

 

good post and things to consider

[Hotcorner]

I really hate the thought of losing Delgado one year after they signed him to a multi-year contract....

 

If they indeed are looking at dropping the payroll to 50, then dealing Delgado pretty much has to be done. I really don't want to believe payroll is going down that much...

 

But good lord do not trade him to the Mets.

 

If the team's going to literally wave the white flag, dump all high salaried older players & go into a youth movement, jettisoning LoDuca will likely happen too. Not much point in paying a catcher that much if they're not spending money anywhere else, although I have no idea who they'd replace him with.

 

The young team that started together in the late 90s (Lowell, Castillo, Gonzalez, Lee, the young pitchers) was the beginning of what culminated in the '03 champs. At this point they may have just decided to cut their losses and start over with the same blueprint. Start with talented young pitching, and let the young players develop around them.

 

Not sure how I had convinced myself that this wasn't a low-budget team anymore, but I sure fooled myself for a while...

[Admin]

Trade Lowell for prospects, mid level, in return for the team taking on 5 or 6 mil of hs salary.

 

Trade Pierre for MLB bullpen help, cheap bullpen help(once again, see if pirates will take Pierre for Mike Gonzalez and Ian Snell)

 

Put those two, along with Kensing, Resop, and Messenger in the bullpen. Put Olsen, Vargas, and Johnson in the rotation.

 

Replace Pierre with Eric Reed or Chris Aguila.

 

See if Gonzo honors his word and takes a discount to stay

 

See if Conine will take a discount, put him in LF

 

Put Reed or Aguila, Willingham, Easley, Wilson, Dillon on the bench

 

If we can find a team to take Lo Duca and his salary, trade him for prospects, sign the cheaper Bengie Molina

 

In the end, if all of those thing I mentioned(there will 16 players not even making $1 mil in that scenario) pan out, keep Delgado. That team could compete for the wildcard and win in the playoffs IMO, and then in 2007, with a year under the belts and a still very inexpensive roster, should compete for no less than the NL east.

[Lane1974]

I, for one, can't blame the ownership for doing it, if they do. They are a cash poor franchise from every sense of the word. The owner isn't a magnate like a Steinbrenner, or Huizenga or Arison, he has the crappiest stadium deal in all of sports, he has a market that doesn't pay money to see his product, even after a world series win. There is little upside. He has to either a) sell the team, I remember 790 the ticket saying there was a wealthy, Hispanic Miamian who offered to buy the team and build a stadium but was rebuffed by the current owners. B) Renegotiate with Huizenga, get a lid put on Dolphin Stadium and make a deal that is beneficial to both parties, or c) relocate.

 

They are passionate owners -- if they had the wallet of other owners in town, there is no doubt he'd be spending $ like the Sox and Yanks and Mets. Be ready for some youth movement.

[Hotcorner]

I, for one, can't blame the ownership for doing it, if they do.

 

Yep, hard to blame them considering the attendence & frustrations with the stadium.

 

The silver lining is that this team has some good talented young players, so that even if this does all come to pass, we'll still have a team with some promise. Would be a painful hit, but such is the roller coaster ride of life as a Florida Marlin fan.

 

 

By the way, what's everyone think of Xavier Nady?

[FreshFish]

the trend is clear. Sell Sell Sell

 

I wonder what is the long term outlook for Loria. The organization seems to be in survival mode.

 

 

This isn't 1998, this is more like 2004.

 

In order to plan ahead to lock up the three core players - Willis, Beckett and Cabrera - the team needs a season where they jettison every dollar they can and stock up on up and coming players.

 

Some of the stuff these writers are fantasizing about may turn out over the next few years to be very smart moves by the front office.

 

Getting rid of Mota, who is arb-eligible, is a good thing. Villone should be shopped at whatever price. LoDuca would be fine if we could sign "a" Molina type player. Chipper Jones just restructured his contract with the Braves, I have to wonder if Mike Lowell wants to stay in Miami enough to do the same thing? I could see him at first, and have opined as much in the past, especially if the right pieces come our way. To get to $50 million something drastic has to be done up the middle, including Pierre, Gonzalez and you-know-who.

 

I'm excited. I think this is a good thing.

 

If even two of three - Aguila, Willingham, Hermida - do well in 2006 this team will get markedly better quickly. If two of our three ready for primetime young pitchers - Vargas, Olsen, Johnson - show themselves capable of pitching in the bigs, it's a great start towards a string of winning seasons.

 

Driving back from dropping my kid off I was thinking about the fact that in college sports there is 100% turnover every four years but somehow UM (for example) seem to find a way to field competitive teams in just about every sport. This year's Heat team looks markedly different than last year's and must stay under the luxury cap, that every year pro football teams swap out half their players.

 

Billy Beane trades off experience for kids all the time and he's considered a god in some baseball circles. He spent $55 million last season with almost $20 million of that committed to two players - Kendall and Chavez.

 

The key right now is to bite the bullet and start. Players are being signed elsewhere, and the sooner the Marlins start, the larger the talent pool they'll have to work from.

I don't care one way or the other.

 

I welcome a young team, but I don't expect us to be competitive either.

 

The PR hit would be huge if most of these rumors materialize. I only hope that Loria is freeing up cash to complete the missing financial pieces of a stadium deal.

 

One thing is for sure, next season won't be as frustrating as 2005. That was a huge waste

[Admin]

I liked my idea, no one else does tho it looks like

[Hotcorner]

I liked my idea, no one else does tho it looks like

 

You left no one for 1B?

[Admin]

I liked my idea, no one else does tho it looks like

 

You left no one for 1B?

 

Ya I did. Through all of those moves, by saving money, the end result would be resigning Seabass and keeping Delgado.

[Flamarlins3]

As much as I'd hate for the Marlins to trade Delgado to the Mets..a deal with Heilman, Petit and maybe anotehr solid player, plus the Mets paying the salary might be worth it.

 

Of course would prefer an AL team but what teh O's have to offer isn't really all that great.

[prinmemito]

If Loria is really struggling this much just to pay his non-player employees, then I think he should sell the team to someone with a lot of cash. Sounds to me like he did whatever was possible to buy himself a Porsche (MLB team) when he could only afford to buy a Nissan Maxima (AAA team). If he can't handle it, sell the damn team. He doesn't have what it takes financially.

[Das Texan]

I'm going to be sick.

 

Give me Vegas or some other worthy city for this organization.

[prinmemito]

Trade Lowell for prospects, mid level, in return for the team taking on 5 or 6 mil of hs salary.

 

Trade Pierre for MLB bullpen help, cheap bullpen help(once again, see if pirates will take Pierre for Mike Gonzalez and Ian Snell)

 

Put those two, along with Kensing, Resop, and Messenger in the bullpen. Put Olsen, Vargas, and Johnson in the rotation.

 

Replace Pierre with Eric Reed or Chris Aguila.

 

See if Gonzo honors his word and takes a discount to stay

 

See if Conine will take a discount, put him in LF

 

Put Reed or Aguila, Willingham, Easley, Wilson, Dillon on the bench

 

If we can find a team to take Lo Duca and his salary, trade him for prospects, sign the cheaper Bengie Molina

 

In the end, if all of those thing I mentioned(there will 16 players not even making $1 mil in that scenario) pan out, keep Delgado. That team could compete for the wildcard and win in the playoffs IMO, and then in 2007, with a year under the belts and a still very inexpensive roster, should compete for no less than the NL east.

 

 

 

So our lineup would look like this:

 

1. Louie

2. Willingham/Conine

3. Miggy

4. Delgado

5. Hermida

6. Cheaper Bengie Molina

7. Aguila

8. SS/Sea Bass

 

 

The question we should ask is... is this a lineup of Delgado and Cabrera and "seven little dwarfs"?

 

I'm going to be sick.

 

Give me Vegas or some other worthy city for this organization.

 

 

MLB is making record profits. It's time they stepped up and did something about this situation. They can't leave one of the largest and potentially lucrative markets in the country.

 

Huizenga really screwed over this organization. God I hate him.

[Marlins2003]

Through all of those moves, by saving money, the end result would be resigning Seabass and keeping Delgado.

 

 

Alll those moves combined won't even get you close to what is being profferred here as the Marlins 2006 payroll, $45 million or even $50 million. Whether it's Aguila or Reed in CF, it's the same $350,000. Trading off Lowell and (the Marlins) picking up $5-6 million doesn't result in enough of a savings in 2006, not unless it's paid over say three years. Then there's $$$ for old obligations, Pudge and Leiter.

 

And who really wants to make a multi-year commitment to SeaBass when there are guys out there you can sign for half the price or less who won't command the years Gonzalez will?

 

But all that is beside the point. If you're going to take the PR hit, as I think FreshFish pointed out is a certainity, experience tells me the Marlins are better off taking it all at once than slowly over a period of years. Bite the bullet. Take the hit. Move on.

[Admin]

No, I meant the team taking Lowell's salary in return for young seemingly non prospects. And that wouldn't be a lineup of Miggy, Delgado, and the 7 little dwarfs. Castillo and Conine to get on base in front of Carlos, Cabs protecting Delgado, Hermida protecting Cabs. Molina is slow but has a nice bat, and Gonzalez had surgery and is hopefully back to his low av/high power form, or even mixing average/power would be nice. The only X factor is Eric Reed, but he is fast like Pierre, has a better arm and more power to go along with it though.