Post to long.People tend to not read it when there that long.

 

people who have short attention spans. You can tell pretty quick if a long post is going to be worth your time or not. Read the first few sentences then.

From this stat it shows that Cody must have hit some homers while playing elsewhere in the OF. Overall he has hit 21 bombs, and has been our regular CF for the majority of the season so that is why I am using the 21. Im not arguing that Maybin can hit a better line than the numbers u have provided cos I am eagerly anticipating his performances in 2009, however I still maintain what I said in that I personally dont believe he will hit 21 long balls.

Also, I think it is hard to provide better defense than Cody as he has been exceptional in that department this year.

 

To round up, yes I want Maybin as our regular CF next year, but I guess I want to keep Cody on this team also incase SpiderMaybin falters, and for use in the rest of the OF.

Cody has played 63% of the innings in CF (not as much as you'd expect), and everyone else 37%. Sure that is still the majority, and you could always just say "leave Cody in CF," but the theme of what people were saying in the thread was getting more production out of the team. The comments about Cody were, in my interpretation, concerning can Maybin replace the production in CF (which is just not the HR which you quoted, and I agree completely with you it is doubtful Maybin can out homer Cody right away). All I was meaning to say is, when the argument is production, you have to first look at where Maybin is playing (exclusively CF), and only include those stats relevant to his impending situation. Marlins CF have been pretty horrible this year with the .251/.309/.425 line. Cody has been fantastic in his role, but we are still missing a lot from CF. When Maybin plays 85-90% of the innings there next year, big jump over what Cody and friends brought. And that is the most important thing. J

 

We definitely need to keep Cody to be a large part of the impending LF platoon, and to be able to cover for Maybin (and even Hermida) if they falter. All this Raynor talk is crazy. He's good, but we just have to be realistic about what he is bringing to the table, to bring the post full circle.

Obviously, no one is suggesting Raynor should start in left field if he can't get on base at a good clip. But if he proves he can, he's definitely the ideal lead off hitter.

 

MarlinsLou, you put way too much emphasis on position. We have gotten almost no production from our corner outfielders this year and yet the offense has gotten production elsewhere. It doesn't matter what position people play. You want a balanced offense. Remember, this is a team game as well, and part of a player's production is driving in other players. We need more men on base, like tonight's game.

No I don't, and you are failing to understand the point. You are putting way to much emphasis on the traditional baseball model and lineup orientations. Really. What is a balanced offense? Can you define this? Is it consistency? Is it OBP at the top and slugging in the middle, so in a situation where player A and B both play the same position you take a .280/.340/.420 line with a quick guy over a .250/.325/.475 line? Do you strive to have quick speedy guys, instead of all guys who can hit the ball for a little more power, just because we have a lot of power hitters so the natural inclination is to get a guy to compliment this? These inferences are flat out incorrect. The point is to get the most out of every position on the field regardless of what kind or type of production the player produces. It's a team sport, but it can be highly individualized because players production can be broken down into independent grounds. Always remember, you make best of situations with lineup orientation, you don't build teams around them. Playing Raynor in LF is not an ideal situation for the aforementioned reasons, even if he profiles as lead off style hitter. You make the best out of Raynor in LF if a player with more promise fails. You don't put him in a realistic shot to take a corner spot because he is not the kind of player who can bring plus production to the spot, even if he is type-casted as a lead off hitter. There are other options, which are simply better.

 

Concerning the Marlins, yes we need to have more OBP in the lineup because Jacobs, Cantu, Cody, Hermida, and the C and CF slots did very poorly with that this year. We only stayed afloat because they sure like to bash. Let's look to next year. C, Baker and someone else will be a huge upgrade over the close to 400 PA given to Treanor, Rabelo, and Hoover. You state "we almost got no production from corner outfielders." Marlins LF this season currently have an .822 OPS (11th). That is predominantly Cody, with some Gonzo. That is more than acceptable. Saying we have gotten almost no production from the corner outfielders is wrong. RF? ABSOLUTELY. Let's be accurate and not make blanket statements. Hermida has been really really bad and Amezaga should not have received 200 PA in CF, those are the problems. Now that, that is out of the way, let's move to Maybin, who is going to take over CF, and that is going to be an improvement (and think about defensively also and not offensively. Maybin is a legit CF, and is going to do wonders to help both corners out, besides improving his own slot. I am not ignoring team components, you are just over-evaluating them). And Hermida, who simply has to better than a .710 OPS or whatever it is at the moment, so that is going to be an improvement. (And if he is not, during the middle of the year that is when you start thinking about moving Raynor into a corner to make the best of the situation through lineup orientation. Get it? You don't discuss before the year let's throw him into a corner. You are shooting yourself in the foot before you are out of the gates). Now we have 1B, where G. Sanchez will be predominantly taking over for Jacobs, and McDallas will be coming up to split 1B/3B. This is two fold - if Cantu stays, cool he is a solid starter, if Cantu goes they will be bringing in another veteran to do the 1B/3B thing and be consistent around the two 'rookies.' This creates a 3 man platoon for the positions. McDallas BB's his ass off. Gaby is a contact hitter, with a fantastic BB:K ratio. Both of them can hit the ball hard as well. Getting these two into the mix, is going to do exactly what you are concerned about and more - getting more OBP, with the added bonus of helping the whole - not at the sacrifice of slugging, bringing in better defensive options, while getting younger, saving money, and trading Jacobs at his peak trade value. These are potential starting caliber players at corner positions, or at least very strong RHP/LHP platoon mates. Little Raynor guys with a moderate bat, are not. Like I said, if we didn't have Maybin, I'd be shooting for a Cody/Raynor split in CF, and a Cody/Hammer split in LF. But we have Maybin, so our ideal outfielder (staying in house as I don't want to speculate acquiring a big time OF) entering 2009 is this - Cody-Maybin-Hermida, Gonzalez as a 4th OF (he has been very good and it is doubtful we can find another player to match his role on the club so perfectly through FA), and Raynor/De Aza as the 5th OF, with Amezaga still around to spot if need be. And likewise, through the other positions I was discussing, I think you see how we are going to have improvements at C, 1B, 3B, CF, and RF regardless, which is effecting the "team" dynamic, which in turn is an argument against Raynor because we are going to have a vastly changed lineup with new players getting serious PA next year. Raynor is not the answer to the equation here. Not through production options, or through lineup orientations unless one of the three (Cody, Maybin, Hermida) fail as players next year.

 

The team is best served doing this in house:

 

C - Baker, Acquiring another young catcher in offseason trades to set up a Snyder/Montero, Mathis/Napoli situation

1B - G. Sanchez (McDallas, Cantu) - Gaby kills LHP, Cantu and Gaby or both OK against RHP. Gaby gets all LHP, and Gaby/Cantu fight for RHP playing time

2B - Uggla - I love Coghlan, but Uggla is still a ridiculous bat to plop 6th/7th in the lineup and get .800+ OPS production from the spot.

SS - Hanley

3B - McDallas gets all RHP, and Cantu gets LHP. Which they each kill

LF - Cody

CF - Maybin

RF - Hermida / Gonzalez backs up all 3 slots because Cody can shift anywhere

Remaining Bench - Amezaga, Raynor/Andino/Carroll/De Aza/Whoever

 

That is 13 guys, all in house (Besides the other catcher, but I find it very unlikely we can't grab one with Olsen, Gregg, Jacobs, Hammer, etc, or in a worst case scenario they just resign LoDuca to a cheap deal), with solid OBP options way higher than what we have this year all over the place, and it's not impacting our slugging what-so-ever because all those guys still have hitting potential, unlike Raynor who doesn't have much potential to slug much higher than .400. Now, be my guest and order the guys through lineup orientation to make the best of the situation, but just because there is no 'traditional lead off hitter' of the bunch, doesn't mean you put a guy with lesser overall production potential in a slot, just to make the lineup look 'balanced' (whatever that word means) on paper.

 

Overall Production > Batting Order. It's that easy of a math equation.

Post to long.People tend to not read it when there that long.

 

Actually...I read it. And it was a good post. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says...but at least he provided an explanation for why he wanted that lineup, etc.

I agree with everything MarlinsLou said except for keeping Louis Gonzalez. I think we can bring someone in better and younger than him.

Obviously, no one is suggesting Raynor should start in left field if he can't get on base at a good clip. But if he proves he can, he's definitely the ideal lead off hitter.

 

MarlinsLou, you put way too much emphasis on position. We have gotten almost no production from our corner outfielders this year and yet the offense has gotten production elsewhere. It doesn't matter what position people play. You want a balanced offense. Remember, this is a team game as well, and part of a player's production is driving in other players. We need more men on base, like tonight's game.

No I don't, and you are failing to understand the point. You are putting way to much emphasis on the traditional baseball model and lineup orientations. Really. What is a balanced offense? Can you define this? Is it consistency? Is it OBP at the top and slugging in the middle, so in a situation where player A and B both play the same position you take a .280/.340/.420 line with a quick guy over a .250/.325/.475 line? Do you strive to have quick speedy guys, instead of all guys who can hit the ball for a little more power, just because we have a lot of power hitters so the natural inclination is to get a guy to compliment this? These inferences are flat out incorrect. The point is to get the most out of every position on the field regardless of what kind or type of production the player produces. It's a team sport, but it can be highly individualized because players production can be broken down into independent grounds. Always remember, you make best of situations with lineup orientation, you don't build teams around them. Playing Raynor in LF is not an ideal situation for the aforementioned reasons, even if he profiles as lead off style hitter. You make the best out of Raynor in LF if a player with more promise fails. You don't put him in a realistic shot to take a corner spot because he is not the kind of player who can bring plus production to the spot, even if he is type-casted as a lead off hitter. There are other options, which are simply better.

 

Concerning the Marlins, yes we need to have more OBP in the lineup because Jacobs, Cantu, Cody, Hermida, and the C and CF slots did very poorly with that this year. We only stayed afloat because they sure like to bash. Let's look to next year. C, Baker and someone else will be a huge upgrade over the close to 400 PA given to Treanor, Rabelo, and Hoover. You state "we almost got no production from corner outfielders." Marlins LF this season currently have an .822 OPS (11th). That is predominantly Cody, with some Gonzo. That is more than acceptable. Saying we have gotten almost no production from the corner outfielders is wrong. RF? ABSOLUTELY. Let's be accurate and not make blanket statements. Hermida has been really really bad and Amezaga should not have received 200 PA in CF, those are the problems. Now that, that is out of the way, let's move to Maybin, who is going to take over CF, and that is going to be an improvement (and think about defensively also and not offensively. Maybin is a legit CF, and is going to do wonders to help both corners out, besides improving his own slot. I am not ignoring team components, you are just over-evaluating them). And Hermida, who simply has to better than a .710 OPS or whatever it is at the moment, so that is going to be an improvement. (And if he is not, during the middle of the year that is when you start thinking about moving Raynor into a corner to make the best of the situation through lineup orientation. Get it? You don't discuss before the year let's throw him into a corner. You are shooting yourself in the foot before you are out of the gates). Now we have 1B, where G. Sanchez will be predominantly taking over for Jacobs, and McDallas will be coming up to split 1B/3B. This is two fold - if Cantu stays, cool he is a solid starter, if Cantu goes they will be bringing in another veteran to do the 1B/3B thing and be consistent around the two 'rookies.' This creates a 3 man platoon for the positions. McDallas BB's his ass off. Gaby is a contact hitter, with a fantastic BB:K ratio. Both of them can hit the ball hard as well. Getting these two into the mix, is going to do exactly what you are concerned about and more - getting more OBP, with the added bonus of helping the whole - not at the sacrifice of slugging, bringing in better defensive options, while getting younger, saving money, and trading Jacobs at his peak trade value. These are potential starting caliber players at corner positions, or at least very strong RHP/LHP platoon mates. Little Raynor guys with a moderate bat, are not. Like I said, if we didn't have Maybin, I'd be shooting for a Cody/Raynor split in CF, and a Cody/Hammer split in LF. But we have Maybin, so our ideal outfielder (staying in house as I don't want to speculate acquiring a big time OF) entering 2009 is this - Cody-Maybin-Hermida, Gonzalez as a 4th OF (he has been very good and it is doubtful we can find another player to match his role on the club so perfectly through FA), and Raynor/De Aza as the 5th OF, with Amezaga still around to spot if need be. And likewise, through the other positions I was discussing, I think you see how we are going to have improvements at C, 1B, 3B, CF, and RF regardless, which is effecting the "team" dynamic, which in turn is an argument against Raynor because we are going to have a vastly changed lineup with new players getting serious PA next year. Raynor is not the answer to the equation here. Not through production options, or through lineup orientations unless one of the three (Cody, Maybin, Hermida) fail as players next year.

 

The team is best served doing this in house:

 

C - Baker, Acquiring another young catcher in offseason trades to set up a Snyder/Montero, Mathis/Napoli situation

1B - G. Sanchez (McDallas, Cantu) - Gaby kills LHP, Cantu and Gaby or both OK against RHP. Gaby gets all LHP, and Gaby/Cantu fight for RHP playing time

2B - Uggla - I love Coghlan, but Uggla is still a ridiculous bat to plop 6th/7th in the lineup and get .800+ OPS production from the spot.

SS - Hanley

3B - McDallas gets all RHP, and Cantu gets LHP. Which they each kill

LF - Cody

CF - Maybin

RF - Hermida / Gonzalez backs up all 3 slots because Cody can shift anywhere

Remaining Bench - Amezaga, Raynor/Andino/Carroll/De Aza/Whoever

 

That is 13 guys, all in house (Besides the other catcher, but I find it very unlikely we can't grab one with Olsen, Gregg, Jacobs, Hammer, etc, or in a worst case scenario they just resign LoDuca to a cheap deal), with solid OBP options way higher than what we have this year all over the place, and it's not impacting our slugging what-so-ever because all those guys still have hitting potential, unlike Raynor who doesn't have much potential to slug much higher than .400. Now, be my guest and order the guys through lineup orientation to make the best of the situation, but just because there is no 'traditional lead off hitter' of the bunch, doesn't mean you put a guy with lesser overall production potential in a slot, just to make the lineup look 'balanced' (whatever that word means) on paper.

 

Overall Production > Batting Order. It's that easy of a math equation.

Post to long.People tend to not read it when there that long.

 

Actually...I read it. And it was a good post. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says...but at least he provided an explanation for why he wanted that lineup, etc.

Bravo I read it also.

lou >>> 96% of posters on any forum around as he always has well thought out ideas.

This kid is such a stud. 8-8, ties a marlins record. He was 4-4 with a walk last night, so basically 5-5. He's making it look easy.

 

I'm almost certain that he'll be a starter next year. Hermida and Willingham are both arbitration eligible, which means that we're seeing the last of them. Same with Jacobs, Amezaga, and Gregg(

Maybin is just a beast, amazing 5 tool player. Oh and i wanna see hermida come back for one more season

i read Lou's post as well, i agree with basically everything he says.

Post to long.People tend to not read it when there that long.

 

people who have short attention spans. You can tell pretty quick if a long post is going to be worth your time or not. Read the first few sentences then.

Exactly! A good long post > than a bad short post and, seriously, is reading such a chore?

 

I think Maybin is just fun as hell to watch and he had the crowd fired up tonight. I also think we'll see him in the starting lineup next year. Obviously, he's not going to hit .800 or .900 forever but he's impressive and certainly makes the future exciting.

Post to long.People tend to not read it when there that long.

 

people who have short attention spans. You can tell pretty quick if a long post is going to be worth your time or not. Read the first few sentences then.

Exactly! A good long post > than a bad short post and, seriously, is reading such a chore?

 

I think Maybin is just fun as hell to watch and he had the crowd fired up tonight. I also think we'll see him in the starting lineup next year. Obviously, he's not going to hit .800 or .900 forever but he's impressive and certainly makes the future exciting.

We were chanting "MVP! MVP!" in the fish tank for Maybin. Obviously, it was a joke, but this kid is making a hell of a statement.

Post to long.People tend to not read it when there that long.

 

people who have short attention spans. You can tell pretty quick if a long post is going to be worth your time or not. Read the first few sentences then.

Exactly! A good long post > than a bad short post and, seriously, is reading such a chore?

 

I think Maybin is just fun as hell to watch and he had the crowd fired up tonight. I also think we'll see him in the starting lineup next year. Obviously, he's not going to hit .800 or .900 forever but he's impressive and certainly makes the future exciting.

We were chanting "MVP! MVP!" in the fish tank for Maybin.

 

 

Awesome. :thumbup Love the sig too.

 

Maybin is going to be such an exciting player for years to come. Just wait until he starts to dazzle us with what he can do defensively out in the Bermuda Triangle. He is truly Gold Glove caliber and the best defensive CF we've had since Devon White.

Post to long.People tend to not read it when there that long.

 

people who have short attention spans. You can tell pretty quick if a long post is going to be worth your time or not. Read the first few sentences then.

Exactly! A good long post > than a bad short post and, seriously, is reading such a chore?

 

I think Maybin is just fun as hell to watch and he had the crowd fired up tonight. I also think we'll see him in the starting lineup next year. Obviously, he's not going to hit .800 or .900 forever but he's impressive and certainly makes the future exciting.

We were chanting "MVP! MVP!" in the fish tank for Maybin. Obviously, it was a joke, but this kid is making a hell of a statement.

haha, I think I was somewhere in front of you!

Obviously, no one is suggesting Raynor should start in left field if he can't get on base at a good clip. But if he proves he can, he's definitely the ideal lead off hitter.

 

MarlinsLou, you put way too much emphasis on position. We have gotten almost no production from our corner outfielders this year and yet the offense has gotten production elsewhere. It doesn't matter what position people play. You want a balanced offense. Remember, this is a team game as well, and part of a player's production is driving in other players. We need more men on base, like tonight's game.

 

Agreed. I think Hammer is gone because of his back problems and unwilligness to have that corrected. I also think Cody is gone next year. Cody can be a starter on another team, something he isn't going to see here. He will be a bench player here, and I would much rather have the more versatile Amazega. Hammer and Cody can bring something decent in return.

 

The team seems committed to improving the defense. And I think Raynor is an upgrade there. Big bats isn't exactly our problem. And IF maybin can finally hit the off speed stuff then we will upgrade the power numbers in CF, while not downgrading the power numbers all that much from LF. Or if he just pops off single after single then that gives us guys on base.

 

Personally I dont see Maybin topping the 21 homers that Cody has hit this year, not in 2009 anyway.

 

Actually, I think he can. The guy does have the power, just being more selective right now leading off. And I do like that. This is a totally different player than I was seeing in ST when I was saying he wasn't ready for the MLB roster yet. To me (and everyone that I have talked to that actually made the effort to see him play in ST) the difference is absolutely amazing and credit should be given to the coaching staff in AA. And the roving coaches.

 

But I may already be doing a reverse on some of that post. Sort of. The more I see Jeremy benched with Maybin and Ross out there, the more I think just MAYBE Jeremy and Hammer are gone. Which IMO would mean Raynor in LF, Maybin in CF, and Ross in RF. Trading either Ross or Hermida wouldn't bother me. But quite truthfully I gotta say I am leaning more towards keeping Ross. Not there yet, but the lean has started.

 

Conflicted thinking here. Cody has become a fan fav while Hermida has become a kicking post. Some of the regulars in our section have even been calling him Bobo. As in a clown. But I'm just not so sure the FO will want to start 2 rookies in the OF in a season I think they believe we will be far more competitive in (legitimate play off contender) and give up on such a highly regarded first round pick that is still so young. AND this is going on the assumption (ass-u-me...know that saying???) that Raynor actually does make the team next year. I say yes because I like speed. But I don't get a vote, nor have I been watching Raynor all year.

 

Going to be an interesting off season. And ST.

The word 'camaron' in Spanish means 'shrimp'.

Yummie :thumbup

 

 

Cant beat the King prawns/shrimp that my dad cooks when he fires up the BBQ

 

Then you have never tasted my shrimp-ka-bobs, which I call shrimp-ka-me.

Post to long.People tend to not read it when there that long.

 

people who have short attention spans. You can tell pretty quick if a long post is going to be worth your time or not. Read the first few sentences then.

Exactly! A good long post > than a bad short post and, seriously, is reading such a chore?

 

I think Maybin is just fun as hell to watch and he had the crowd fired up tonight. I also think we'll see him in the starting lineup next year. Obviously, he's not going to hit .800 or .900 forever but he's impressive and certainly makes the future exciting.

We were chanting "MVP! MVP!" in the fish tank for Maybin. Obviously, it was a joke, but this kid is making a hell of a statement.

 

Is that where it started? If so, I'm not surprised since a lot of chants start in the fish tank. Other sections picked it up also and it was loud & clear where I sit and I'm in the club section, 1st base side. :thumbup

Maybin is a f***ing beast. He looks like the real deal out there. I love having speed again on this team. I hope we go back to '03 and have a great D again. My favorite thing about this organization was the emphasis on pitching and D, and the past couple years we have gone away from it