For the record, Cantu hit .255/.298/.425 when Late and Close, which is what most people think of when they say "clutch". That puts him behind a few guys on the team, including Jeremy Hermida (.259/.326/.494).

 

I still think Cantu had a better season than Hermida. Everyone says the stats, but overall Cantu was the better player. Hermida is a good young player, but I do not think he showed he was better than Cantu last year.

 

The numbers do not always add up to the effect they have. Just here how many ore times did Cantu get player of the week over Hermida. Everyone during the season trusted Cantu a lot more than Hermida.

 

I think people are overvaluing Hermida too, ever since the Manny talk he has been almost untouchable. He is a decent outfielder but he isn't a stud.

Ofcourse Cantu had a better season. Hermida didn't have a good one and Cantu did. The stats show that.

 

I was just commenting on the myth that Cantu was the most "clutch" player on the team when he didn't even do as well as Hermida did in clutch situations, much less as well as guys like Hanley, Cody, or Dan Uggla.

 

And to answer your question about the Fish of the Week, the answer is 0. Both Cantu and Hermida only won Fish of the Week once, in back to back weeks at that. Cantu won in Week 16 and Hermida in Week 17.

People sometimes assume the Marlins will trade just about anybody on the roster who's arbitration-eligible. So why not a guy like Hermida, who has tantalized them with his talent, yet frustrated them with his unfulfilled potential? Well, there's plenty of interest (in both Hermida and the even-less-available Dan Uggla), according to clubs that have spoken to the Fish. The Marlins have been pushing Jorge Cantu over Hermida, at least so far. But Hermida fits exactly what teams like the Cubs, Phillies and Rays are looking for to plug into their outfield holes. And the Marlins have young studs like Cameron Maybin, Logan Morrison and Michael Stanton on their outfield horizon. So it will be interesting to see whether they can build an Hermida deal around Jason Bartlett and a young starter (Edwin Jackson or Andy Sonnanstine) with Tampa Bay, or around infield prospect Jason Donald with the Phillies.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stor...mp;lid=tab4pos1

I just thew up a little in my mouth after reading this!

For the record, Cantu hit .255/.298/.425 when Late and Close, which is what most people think of when they say "clutch". That puts him behind a few guys on the team, including Jeremy Hermida (.259/.326/.494).

 

I still think Cantu had a better season than Hermida. Everyone says the stats, but overall Cantu was the better player. Hermida is a good young player, but I do not think he showed he was better than Cantu last year.

 

The numbers do not always add up to the effect they have. Just here how many ore times did Cantu get player of the week over Hermida. Everyone during the season trusted Cantu a lot more than Hermida.

 

I think people are overvaluing Hermida too, ever since the Manny talk he has been almost untouchable. He is a decent outfielder but he isn't a stud.

Ofcourse Cantu had a better season. Hermida didn't have a good one and Cantu did. The stats show that.

 

I was just commenting on the myth that Cantu was the most "clutch" player on the team when he didn't even do as well as Hermida did in clutch situations, much less as well as guys like Hanley, Cody, or Dan Uggla.

 

And to answer your question about the Fish of the Week, the answer is 0. Both Cantu and Hermida only won Fish of the Week once, in back to back weeks at that. Cantu won in Week 16 and Hermida in Week 17.

 

I stand corrected, maybe I only remember voting for him every week

 

But yea 2008 Cantu vs. Hermida it was Cantu. Long term obviously Hermida has more to offer, but is he a hold onto player?

I thought I had slept off my hangover, but after reading some of these "gems," my head is bumping once again.

And if we trade Hermida for the Bartlett Puu-puu platter, I might have an eternal hangover.

It is about Sonnanstine, not about Bartlett...

 

13-9 with a 4+ERA 1.2whip and 6K/9 in the AL east for a 25 year old only in his second year isn't bad. He also went 5-0 vs the AL East. We all know thats the hardest lineups to pitch against.

 

I do not think it is ideal, but adding a pitcher like Sonnanstine is better than adding a pitcher like Sanchez.

 

But we have absolutely no need for Bartlett, and he's pretty bad on top of it. It just seemed at first from Stark's wording that the deal would be centered around Bartlett and one of the two pitchers. So it's more like the Sonnanstine-Bartlett puu-puu platter. Obviously Sonnanstine would be the "prize" of the package, but like you said, it's not ideal. Give me Sonnanstine and something other than Bartlett, and maybe I could stomach it. I'm not the expert on minor league talent, so I'll let the others think of possible deals that would be acceptable for Hermida.

 

As for Sanchez, I'd rather trade Cantu for Sanchez since we have capable replacements in McPherson and Helms, than trade Hermida for Sonnanstine simply because we have no true replacements.

 

I really don't know anything about baseball, so feel free to murder this post.

For the record, Cantu hit .255/.298/.425 when Late and Close, which is what most people think of when they say "clutch". That puts him behind a few guys on the team, including Jeremy Hermida (.259/.326/.494).

 

I still think Cantu had a better season than Hermida. Everyone says the stats, but overall Cantu was the better player. Hermida is a good young player, but I do not think he showed he was better than Cantu last year.

 

The numbers do not always add up to the effect they have. Just here how many ore times did Cantu get player of the week over Hermida. Everyone during the season trusted Cantu a lot more than Hermida.

 

I think people are overvaluing Hermida too, ever since the Manny talk he has been almost untouchable. He is a decent outfielder but he isn't a stud.

Ofcourse Cantu had a better season. Hermida didn't have a good one and Cantu did. The stats show that.

 

I was just commenting on the myth that Cantu was the most "clutch" player on the team when he didn't even do as well as Hermida did in clutch situations, much less as well as guys like Hanley, Cody, or Dan Uggla.

 

And to answer your question about the Fish of the Week, the answer is 0. Both Cantu and Hermida only won Fish of the Week once, in back to back weeks at that. Cantu won in Week 16 and Hermida in Week 17.

 

I stand corrected, maybe I only remember voting for him every week

 

But yea 2008 Cantu vs. Hermida it was Cantu. Long term obviously Hermida has more to offer, but is he a hold onto player?

My answer to that is an easy yes, I think he is.

 

Cantu, at the end of the day, is probably as good as he is going to get and that's an average starter with sub-par defense. He'll probably always be good enough to start at 3rd around the league until he hits his natural decline. That's not a bad thing to be.

 

Hermida, on the other hand, is still young and still shows all that potential. And even in that last, sup-par season, I saw the potential in him. The danger is whether or not he pans out.

 

So yes, I think we should keep him. If we traded him to a division rival, I would kill a baby because he'd be a constant thorn in our sides for years to come. If we traded him for Sonnenstine, I'd probably be angry for a bit but get over it. Now then, if we traded him for Jackson, I would have to kill Beinfest, as I see absolutely nothing special in that guy.

For those saying that we should pull a deal just for Sonnanstine, keep in mind that he is Ricky Nolasco but with weaker stuff. All in all that isn't that bad, but last year was really a career year for him and I don't think he will ever be much better than that. So while he isn't a bad guy to pick up, he's not ever gonna be an ace.

 

And bartlett... :lol

 

We'd definitely need a better complimentary player in return, a prospect that has potential instead of a guy who has proven he can stink at the major league level.

For those saying that we should pull a deal just for Sonnanstine, keep in mind that he is Ricky Nolasco but with weaker stuff. All in all that isn't that bad, but last year was really a career year for him and I don't think he will ever be much better than that. So while he isn't a bad guy to pick up, he's not ever gonna be an ace.

 

And bartlett... :lol

 

We'd definitely need a better complimentary player in return, a prospect that has potential instead of a guy who has proven he can stink at the major league level.

I don't think you are right about Sonnanstine, he'll probably be a #3 starter in my opinion.

 

That said, that's not enough for a guy like Hermida.

Also, it's worth mentioning that Jackson has been playing pro-ball for 7 years, as opposed to Miller's 3.

 

 

which would make Jackson a more experienced pitcher for us next year and less prone to nerves getting to him.

 

Jackson is similar to Miller except that he has a fastball that, while very fast, is also very straight. So in addition to him having poor control, he is still very hittable as well despite the manager strikeouts.

 

 

Personally, I think that Miller stinks and has been horribly mishandled by both teams he has been with. But he is a different animal than Jackson, with the only similarity being that (despite Jackson's seemingly good numbers) they both don't have adequate command and get knocked out of starts way too early.

For those saying that we should pull a deal just for Sonnanstine, keep in mind that he is Ricky Nolasco but with weaker stuff. All in all that isn't that bad, but last year was really a career year for him and I don't think he will ever be much better than that. So while he isn't a bad guy to pick up, he's not ever gonna be an ace.

 

And bartlett... :lol

 

We'd definitely need a better complimentary player in return, a prospect that has potential instead of a guy who has proven he can stink at the major league level.

I don't think you are right about Sonnanstine, he'll probably be a #3 starter in my opinion.

 

That said, that's not enough for a guy like Hermida.

 

I was trying to indicate that he would be a number 3 type. I guess it may not have come out that way.

 

I don't know if losing production in RF (where on Earth would it come from?) is worth obtaining another number 3 guy, even though that isn't that bad.

For those saying that we should pull a deal just for Sonnanstine, keep in mind that he is Ricky Nolasco but with weaker stuff. All in all that isn't that bad, but last year was really a career year for him and I don't think he will ever be much better than that. So while he isn't a bad guy to pick up, he's not ever gonna be an ace.

 

And bartlett... :lol

 

We'd definitely need a better complimentary player in return, a prospect that has potential instead of a guy who has proven he can stink at the major league level.

I don't think you are right about Sonnanstine, he'll probably be a #3 starter in my opinion.

 

That said, that's not enough for a guy like Hermida.

 

I was trying to indicate that he would be a number 3 type. I guess it may not have come out that way.

 

I don't know if losing production in RF (where on Earth would it come from?) is worth obtaining another number 3 guy, even though that isn't that bad.

Ah, I got confused. I didn't realize that you talking about Bartlett in that second part. I got it now.

 

Yeah, that guy sucks.

Jeremy Hermida had a terribly disappointing year. No one can deny this.

 

What happens if he's the same guy next year? Not good, not good at all. Keeping him MIGHT be a gamble. I know a lot of you are in love with him and thinks he'll turn it around for sure. Well, suppose he doesn't turn it around. He's not going to have any trade value AT ALL.

Jeremy Hermida had a terribly disappointing year. No one can deny this.

 

What happens if he's the same guy next year? Not good, not good at all. Keeping him MIGHT be a gamble. I know a lot of you are in love with him and thinks he'll turn it around for sure. Well, suppose he doesn't turn it around. He's not going to have any trade value AT ALL.

Well, that's the risk with guys like him. You can say that about any team. Hell, you can say that about a lot of guys.

 

What if we keep Cantu and he goes on to have another year like 2006 and 2007, instead of one like 2005 or 2008? Then we have nothing.

 

What happens if Danny shows that he is more 2007 than 2006 and 2008? Then we have nothing.

 

But think of it this way? Should we have traded Uggla after a bad 2007 which followed a good 2006? How do the Reds feel about releasing Cantu after a bad 2007?

about the same could be said about Andrew Miller

 

 

And Miller gets bashed plenty enough here too. At the very least, Miller has proven that he can get lefties out, on a regular basis.

 

When the Jorge Cantu for Jonathan Sanchez rumors came up, people were saying "but why? We don't need another pitcher" blah, blah, blah. Now a trade like this comes up...and people seem happy because Hermida's the scapegoat to all our problems.

 

Hermida's proven to be better than Cantu already , with more potential than Cantu, yet we're getting a middle infielder who would be useless here...and a pitching project. No thanks. If Jonathan Sanchez isn't "needed" neither is Edwin Jackson.

 

 

 

 

 

Bang your head all you want...fact is, Jorge Cantu's career .777 .OPS for a corner infielder who isn't very good defensively is nothing to brag about.

 

People should start thinking with their minds, instead of their hearts. The whole "Cantu is extremely clutch" thing is nothing but crap. #'s don't lie.

 

 

production on the field doesn't. Do you win games on stats or by your play on the field? Are you going to get the runner home from a stat book? We watched the game, and all year long Cantu proved to be the most clutch player on the team, he lagged late, but he was the most clutch in the most important times. Great that you watched the game stat boy

 

Aside from the fact that your conception is stats vs. feelings is wrong, you can't even characterize your excessive praise appropriately - how in the heck can you say he struggled late if you watched the games at all? Unless you want to say that the stats saying he's average are not showing how great he is, while he was actually lagging when the stats say he was great over a period of time?

 

Sept/Oct 99 PA 90 AB 19R 7 2B's 7HR 23RBI .278 BA .333 OBP .589 SLG .922 OPS

 

I got the data from:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=cantujo01&year=2008

 

Huh????????????????????????????

Jeremy Hermida had a terribly disappointing year. No one can deny this.

 

What happens if he's the same guy next year? Not good, not good at all. Keeping him MIGHT be a gamble. I know a lot of you are in love with him and thinks he'll turn it around for sure. Well, suppose he doesn't turn it around. He's not going to have any trade value AT ALL.

 

My problem with this thinking is that it turns all players into stocks, where the end all is to accumulate the most value. At the end of the day, baseball players have to come together to form a team that works together to produce wins. While he is still a relatively valuable commodity this year and he a bad season will undoubtedly ruin this, I think at the end of the day our team is going to be seriously hurting if we don't have an adequate RFer next year.

 

Billy Beane is constantly trading his players in order to accumulate value, and while he has assembled a franchise that manages to be decent every year, his current philosophy hasn't lead him to any championships either.

 

The point being that, you're not trying to accumulate value, you're trying to accumulate players that should be good enough to win. You can't trade every good player (or potentially good) just because their value might not be the same next year.

Also, it's worth mentioning that Jackson has been playing pro-ball for 7 years, as opposed to Miller's 3.

 

 

which would make Jackson a more experienced pitcher for us next year and less prone to nerves getting to him.

 

Jackson is similar to Miller except that he has a fastball that, while very fast, is also very straight. So in addition to him having poor control, he is still very hittable as well despite the manager strikeouts.

 

 

Personally, I think that Miller stinks and has been horribly mishandled by both teams he has been with. But he is a different animal than Jackson, with the only similarity being that (despite Jackson's seemingly good numbers) they both don't have adequate command and get knocked out of starts way too early.

 

That and Miller's a lefty and Jackson is a righty.

Also, it's worth mentioning that Jackson has been playing pro-ball for 7 years, as opposed to Miller's 3.

 

 

which would make Jackson a more experienced pitcher for us next year and less prone to nerves getting to him.

 

Jackson is similar to Miller except that he has a fastball that, while very fast, is also very straight. So in addition to him having poor control, he is still very hittable as well despite the manager strikeouts.

 

 

Personally, I think that Miller stinks and has been horribly mishandled by both teams he has been with. But he is a different animal than Jackson, with the only similarity being that (despite Jackson's seemingly good numbers) they both don't have adequate command and get knocked out of starts way too early.

 

That and Miller's a lefty and Jackson is a righty.

 

Well, results are results no matter what side you are pitching from. If Miller stinks (which he does), he doesn't instantly have value because he is left handed. Maybe perceived value, but to me thats always seemed a little silly anyway. He's not gonna get more outs just because he throws left handed.

oh yeah, can you PLEASE learn to quote correctly?

thank you, so annoying.

 

 

I'll learn how to use the quote button, when you guys learn how to interpret stats. Fair deal?

Hermida had a horrible season by all accounts but as you noticed even so there are several teams with their fingers crossed that the Marlins will give up on him. Hermida can hit and Hermida will hit. You can take that to the bank. Beinfest will stay the course with Hermida, moreso Fredi will get on board. Reference to that trade scenario, it just doesn't cut for so many reasons. We don't have Major League ready outfielder depth, but we do have depth in the infield and in our starting pitching. it's almost a Bizarro world trade

I stand corrected, maybe I only remember voting for him every week

 

But yea 2008 Cantu vs. Hermida it was Cantu. Long term obviously Hermida has more to offer, but is he a hold onto player?

 

 

 

When this is the return...yes.

i know there has been talk of trading Cantu and that it is the trendy FO move................ but id really be suprised if it happens.......he was too good last year

I'd instantly plug Bartlett at 2nd base instead of Uggla, making uggla expendable....

So swap the third best OBP in the league last year for a .329 OBP? Good call! :thumbup

i know there has been talk of trading Cantu and that it is the trendy FO move................ but id really be suprised if it happens.......he was too good last year

 

Hah, nobody is too good with this owner/FO.

There seems to be three arguments going on in this thread right now, and I would like to weigh in on all: stats v. perception, Cantu v. Hermida and whether the Stark proposed Marlins-Rays trade would be a good one or not.

 

As far as statistics, one thing everyone forgets about statistics and their application to baseball is that a sandalone season for an individual player doesn't necessarily mean much because there's not a large enough sample size to establish much credibility for those results. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Sabremetrics might know the approx. statisical signifigcance of a normal MLB season for a player, but I doubt it's large enough to say with any certainty those results are typical for a player and not an outlier (chance). Break that out into situational stats (ie- stats against lefties, or late ingames with close scores), and you further dilute the power those stats have to project future performance of a player. That's why it's much better to look at trends (say over 3 yrs) or complete career #'s.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a numbers person myself; I have an Economics degree and am an Large Group Underwriter for a major insurance company. However, there are intangibles that are difficult to quantify in sats: leadership, dedication, reputation, etc. They all have varying level of impacts on a player and team's results, and often the only way to identify these intangibles is by wathcing the game (perception). Perception can be just as faulty as the numbers, of course, for one's analysis of Canu's clutch abilities might be colored by the games you watched where he knocked in the tieing or go-ahead runs, and not by the ones you missed where he struck out w/RISP. It's important to balance the two to get a better idea of "the truth."

 

As far as Cantu vs. Hermida, I think many people's opinions are influenced by the generally-squandered potential of Hermida and the outperformance of expectations for Cantu. Hermida has shown flashes of what made him a 1st round pick (contrary to our established propensity to go piching inthe first couple of rounds), but hasn't shown the progression or consistency the other players from outside of the organization of similar age and experience have been able to show in the same time span (Hanley, Dan, even Jacobs). As far as Cantu, the Marlins were universally picked to be the worst team in the NL, if not MLB because of the void from Miggy's departure. Jorge was brought in as a non-roster invitee with a chance to compete for a job. No one expected much from him, esp after his 07 season- all he did was fill that void more than adequately. He exceeded most expectations, and though not the reason, a part of why the Marlins were in contention until July.

 

If we are to trade one, I say Hermida. 1) I feel he'd get the highest return value (more team's are looking for power hiting RF's than 3B's, thus we'd be able to choose the best deals and leverage the teams against eachother), 2) Our OF talent is closer to bigleague ready than Matt Dominguez and 3) We desperately need consistency with this franchise. While no one is going to confuse him with the long-term answer at third, he's a solid player capable of posting good offensive numbers and adequate defense. With Hanley, Dan and (hopefully) Maybin, that's all we need. I don't see how anyone could argue a rotation at third is better thanone player getting the majority of the AB's reps. I don't want to see both corner IF spos new and/or rotation players.

 

As far as the proposed Rays trade, that is the sorriest package involving the Marlins I've seen proposed yet. While Bartlett is arguably the best defensive SS in baseball, his offensive ability is anemic at best; we already have our SS and there's no guarantee he could take to another position with the same kind of ability as SS. I think his return value is minimal. Jackson is a scrub; I believe his W-L record is a product of the Ray's surprising offense, not his pitching prowess. His ERA and WHIP is consistantly poor, and besides, we have plenty of power pitchers of the roster. In the NL east, we need more control and finesse. Maybe if we get JAckson, we should convert him back to OF to replace Hermida (Jackson's orignal position with the Dodgers in the minors)

 

Andy could fill that role, but as far as ptiching from that franchise, I'd rather get Jeff Niemann.

The problem with "clutch" is that people only remember 1) when the guy delivers and 2) who the guy is at the plate.

 

If in game 1 of a series, with the game tied in the bottom of the 9th, and Player A hits a double followed by Player B hitting a single to drive him in, all of a sudden everybody is praising Player B as being clutch. Why isn't what Player A did counted as clutch? When it comes to close and late, it's not just about hitting in runs, it's about what you did as a whole. Cantu has a lot of memorable late inning heroics but as a whole, his late game abilities were not that great.

 

As far as Edwin Jackson v.s. Andrew Miller.

 

Edwin Jackson does not strike people out. He doesn't not walk people. He does not prevent XBH and home runs. In short, he has a 98 MPH fast ball that does the exact opposite of what a pitcher wants to accomplish.

 

Andrew Miller does strike people out. He doesn't not walk people. He does prevent XBH and HRs. In other words, the only thing that Andrew is poor at is control. Where as Edwin is bad at everything.

 

Ontop of that, Andrew is 2 years younger and left handed.

 

I really don't get people.

The problem with "clutch" is that people only remember 1) when the guy delivers and 2) who the guy is at the plate.

 

If in game 1 of a series, with the game tied in the bottom of the 9th, and Player A hits a double followed by Player B hitting a single to drive him in, all of a sudden everybody is praising Player B as being clutch. Why isn't what Player A did counted as clutch? When it comes to close and late, it's not just about hitting in runs, it's about what you did as a whole. Cantu has a lot of memorable late inning heroics but as a whole, his late game abilities were not that great.

 

As far as Edwin Jackson v.s. Andrew Miller.

 

Edwin Jackson does not strike people out. He doesn't not walk people. He does not prevent XBH and home runs. In short, he has a 98 MPH fast ball that does the exact opposite of what a pitcher wants to accomplish.

 

Andrew Miller does strike people out. He doesn't not walk people. He does prevent XBH and HRs. In other words, the only thing that Andrew is poor at is control. Where as Edwin is bad at everything.

 

Ontop of that, Andrew is 2 years younger and left handed.

 

I really don't get people.

 

You kind of hit the nail on the head with the Miller/Jackson comparisons. I also agree with the previous poster who mentioned Niemann. I wouldn't give up a whole lot for Niemann, but I don't think his position really commands a whole lot of value (although the Rays likely will want to hold onto him). Even though he doesn't have the major league track record, I think he will be just as good and actually better than the other two. He looked pretty good in his brief time this year.