October 20, 200916 yr http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_baseball_marlins/2009/10/florida-marlins-bba-unkind-to-chris-coghlan-in Florida Marlins: BBA unkind to Chris Coghlan in NL ROY vote > Posted by Juan C. Rodriguez on October 19, 2009 09:36 PM That's BBA as in Baseball Bloggers Alliance. The BBA is mimicking the Baseball Writers Association awards, casting ballots for the Manager, Rookie, Cy Young and MVP honors in both leagues. Looks like they've gotten through the managers and rookies and are currently taking the Cy Young tally. I was a little surprised to see Chris Coghlan didn't get a ton of love in the NL ROY debate. The BBA's winner: Pirates OF Andrew McCutchen. Not only did Coghlan not win, he didn't make the podium! Placing and showing in the vote were Braves right-hander Tommy Hanson and Phillies lefty J.A. Happ. Michael Jong at the Marlins Maniac blog is a member of the BBA and has been casting his ballots. I've linked to Michael's work here in the past and he does a great job putting a Sabermetric spin on what's happening with the Fish. Oddly enough though, Michael altogether left Coghlan off his NL ROY ballot. Michael's top three: McCutchen, Cubs right-hander Randy Wells and Hanson. In his explanation, Michael penalizes Coghlan for his poor outfield play. My point to Michael was if you're going to condemn Coghlan for well below average defense at a position he'd never played, you also should celebrate him for excelling at a spot in the batting order that was foreign to him. I like McCutchen and he certainly is in the NL ROY conversation, but the historic nature of Coghlan's offensive season in my estimation makes his defensive shortcomings forgivable. Well they have lost all credibility with me, that's for sure:mad
October 20, 200916 yr http://blogs.sun-sen...hris-coghlan-in Florida Marlins: BBA unkind to Chris Coghlan in NL ROY vote > Posted by Juan C. Rodriguez on October 19, 2009 09:36 PM That's BBA as in Baseball Bloggers Alliance. The BBA is mimicking the Baseball Writers Association awards, casting ballots for the Manager, Rookie, Cy Young and MVP honors in both leagues. Looks like they've gotten through the managers and rookies and are currently taking the Cy Young tally. I was a little surprised to see Chris Coghlan didn't get a ton of love in the NL ROY debate. The BBA's winner: Pirates OF Andrew McCutchen. Not only did Coghlan not win, he didn't make the podium! Placing and showing in the vote were Braves right-hander Tommy Hanson and Phillies lefty J.A. Happ. Michael Jong at the Marlins Maniac blog is a member of the BBA and has been casting his ballots. I've linked to Michael's work here in the past and he does a great job putting a Sabermetric spin on what's happening with the Fish. Oddly enough though, Michael altogether left Coghlan off his NL ROY ballot. Michael's top three: McCutchen, Cubs right-hander Randy Wells and Hanson. In his explanation, Michael penalizes Coghlan for his poor outfield play. My point to Michael was if you're going to condemn Coghlan for well below average defense at a position he'd never played, you also should celebrate him for excelling at a spot in the batting order that was foreign to him. I like McCutchen and he certainly is in the NL ROY conversation, but the historic nature of Coghlan's offensive season in my estimation makes his defensive shortcomings forgivable. Well they have lost all credibility with me, that's for sure Man, some of you are real homers about this. You might not agree with his opinion, but to say he loses all credibility is really ignorant. The guy stated why Coghlan isn't in his top 3, and the reason (defense) is legit. The top 3 mentioned also had very good years.
October 20, 200916 yr Isn't this the same exact argument that other guy made in the thread with the poll? I think the majority had spoken on that one. :lol Anyway, I don't think the defense argument is that legitimate under the circumstances. It's something being conjured up by the stat snobs who refuse to look at the situation in context. Chris Coghlan is not a natural outfielder. In fact, he had not played the outfield since little league. He was called up because his team desperately needed his bat after Cameron Maybin proved that he needed more work and Jeremy Hermida was stinking up the joint. There is also the complicated Emilio Bonifacio saga but that's not important. The bottom line is that the Marlins needed an outfield bat badly and Coghlan was hitting extremely well in AAA so he got the call. I think he should be getting credit for playing left field as well as he did considering the circumstances. He probably won't be playing left field very much in the future, either. Of course these bloggers never see things this way. Statistics are nice but they only work if you apply common sense. Wasn't there an Albert Einstein quote about this?
October 20, 200916 yr Isn't this the same exact argument that other guy made in the thread with the poll? I think the majority had spoken on that one. :lol Anyway, I don't think the defense argument is that legitimate under the circumstances. It's something being conjured up by the stat snobs who refuse to look at the situation in context. Chris Coghlan is not a natural outfielder. In fact, he had not played the outfield since little league. He was called up because his team desperately needed his bat after Cameron Maybin proved that he needed more work and Jeremy Hermida was stinking up the joint. There is also the complicated Emilio Bonifacio saga but that's not important. The bottom line is that the Marlins needed an outfield bat badly and Coghlan was hitting extremely well in AAA so he got the call. I think he should be getting credit for playing left field as well as he did considering the circumstances. He probably won't be playing left field very much in the future, either. Of course these bloggers never see things this way. Statistics are nice but they only work if you apply common sense. Wasn't there an Albert Einstein quote about this? I agree 100%. The people mentioned in the OP are far too obsessed with defense and statistics as a whole. Coghlan won a lot of games for us this year, and I can't remember one that he lost for us because of his defense.
October 20, 200916 yr Isn't this the same exact argument that other guy made in the thread with the poll? I think the majority had spoken on that one. Anyway, I don't think the defense argument is that legitimate under the circumstances. It's something being conjured up by the stat snobs who refuse to look at the situation in context. Chris Coghlan is not a natural outfielder. In fact, he had not played the outfield since little league. He was called up because his team desperately needed his bat after Cameron Maybin proved that he needed more work and Jeremy Hermida was stinking up the joint. There is also the complicated Emilio Bonifacio saga but that's not important. The bottom line is that the Marlins needed an outfield bat badly and Coghlan was hitting extremely well in AAA so he got the call. I think he should be getting credit for playing left field as well as he did considering the circumstances. He probably won't be playing left field very much in the future, either. Of course these bloggers never see things this way. Statistics are nice but they only work if you apply common sense. Wasn't there an Albert Einstein quote about this? That still doesn't take away from the fact that the position that he played was LF. I understand your argument, but you can't completely ignore defense.
October 20, 200916 yr It is the same kind of thinking that makes Todd Hollandsworth your ROY. You know, the dumb kind.
October 20, 200916 yr Isn't this the same exact argument that other guy made in the thread with the poll? I think the majority had spoken on that one. Anyway, I don't think the defense argument is that legitimate under the circumstances. It's something being conjured up by the stat snobs who refuse to look at the situation in context. Chris Coghlan is not a natural outfielder. In fact, he had not played the outfield since little league. He was called up because his team desperately needed his bat after Cameron Maybin proved that he needed more work and Jeremy Hermida was stinking up the joint. There is also the complicated Emilio Bonifacio saga but that's not important. The bottom line is that the Marlins needed an outfield bat badly and Coghlan was hitting extremely well in AAA so he got the call. I think he should be getting credit for playing left field as well as he did considering the circumstances. He probably won't be playing left field very much in the future, either. Of course these bloggers never see things this way. Statistics are nice but they only work if you apply common sense. Wasn't there an Albert Einstein quote about this? Tell me, how did Coghlan not being a natural outfielder increase his value this past season? He was brought into a situation that was unfamiliar to him, and he failed (defensively, at least), like one would expect. Does the fact that he played second base in college and throughout his minor league career have any impact on what he brought to the team this past season? He spent a grand total of 7 innings at second base, and spent all 1,039 of his other innings in left field. If someone is valuable in a certain area, but you don't use him for that specific cause, then his value decreases. Coghlan's value doesn't increase because of the situation the Marlins were in and what position they were in need of.
October 20, 200916 yr I try to be a non homer on this site (hard to do so), but I think the average fan can agree that Coghlan's accomplishments in the second half was amazing. The season he had deserves more than a rookie of the year award, he deserves a key to the city In all seriousness, he had a great year. J.A Happ kind of tailed off towards the end of the year, Tommy Hanson came on a little too late, and guys like McCutchen and co. just don't compare to the kind of 2 month hot streak Coghlan had. We all know ROY voting has never really been decided because of "defensive prowess", why should we start giving out votes based on defense now? I'm not saying defense isn't very key part to success, I'm just saying that when it comes to these awards, offense is 10X more important than defense, and Coghlan's offensive season was 10X better than his competitors imo. Translation- Blah Blah Blah I'm a giant homer, Chris Coghlan is god.
October 20, 200916 yr Isn't this the same exact argument that other guy made in the thread with the poll? I think the majority had spoken on that one. Anyway, I don't think the defense argument is that legitimate under the circumstances. It's something being conjured up by the stat snobs who refuse to look at the situation in context. Chris Coghlan is not a natural outfielder. In fact, he had not played the outfield since little league. He was called up because his team desperately needed his bat after Cameron Maybin proved that he needed more work and Jeremy Hermida was stinking up the joint. There is also the complicated Emilio Bonifacio saga but that's not important. The bottom line is that the Marlins needed an outfield bat badly and Coghlan was hitting extremely well in AAA so he got the call. I think he should be getting credit for playing left field as well as he did considering the circumstances. He probably won't be playing left field very much in the future, either. Of course these bloggers never see things this way. Statistics are nice but they only work if you apply common sense. Wasn't there an Albert Einstein quote about this? Tell me, how did Coghlan not being a natural outfielder increase his value this past season? He was brought into a situation that was unfamiliar to him, and he failed (defensively, at least), like one would expect. Does the fact that he played second base in college and throughout his minor league career have any impact on what he brought to the team this past season? He spent a grand total of 7 innings at second base, and spent all 1,039 of his other innings in left field. If someone is valuable in a certain area, but you don't use him for that specific cause, then his value decreases. Coghlan's value doesn't increase because of the situation the Marlins were in and what position they were in need of. His value was in his bat. That's why the Marlins called him up and that's why they had to force him to become a left-fielder. If the Marlins were so concerned about having a defensively strong outfielder they would have been starting Brett Carroll everyday. It's very clear to me what the Marlins expected Coghlan to be doing for them and it's even more clear that he succeeded in that task.
October 20, 200916 yr That still doesn't take away from the fact that the position that he played was LF. I understand your argument, but you can't completely ignore defense. Who said anything ignoring it completely? The legitimate counter-argument is that the stat snobs are placing excessive emphasis on defense. The award itself has been historically offensive biased (this isn't a bad thing because occasionally players in their rookie year are not in their natural positions). If McCutchen and Coghlan had closer offensive numbers, then I could perhaps see the blogger's case. I see no reason to give defense this much weight for the reasons I've outlined above. Some of you don't seem to understand that players are often called up to fit certain needs and must adapt to awkard situations.
October 20, 200916 yr If McCutchen and Coghlan had closer offensive numbers, then I could perhaps see the blogger's case. I see no reason to give defense this much weight for the reasons I've outlined above. Chris Coghlan: 125 OPS+ Andrew McCutchen: 124 OPS+ Contrary to what the homers on this site are saying, the offensive numbers were just slightly better for Coghlan. Thus, the blogger does have a case. And to completely dismiss his case just shows ignorance.
October 20, 200916 yr Ummmm... by the way Coghlan did not "fail" in left field. Yes I'm sure he was near or at the bottom of the league in whatever defensive metrics you'd like to throw out, but he fielded the position and didn't embarrass himself or the team. He also improved during the course of the season. And it was a position he hadn't played before. This wasn't going from 2nd to 3rd. Not that relevant to the ROY discussion, just saying it's not like he was a joke out there. He was fine. If he "failed", the team wouldn't have left him out there.
October 20, 200916 yr Chris Coghlan: 125 OPS+ Andrew McCutchen: 124 OPS+ Contrary to what the homers on this site are saying, the offensive numbers were just slightly better for Coghlan. Thus, the blogger does have a case. And to completely dismiss his case just shows ignorance. Yeah but Coghlan had more waaaaay more hits and everyone knows number of hits is the best stat to judge hitters. That's why Juan Pierre should have a couple of MVPs but was robbed.
October 21, 200916 yr I don't know why we're arguing about this. J.A Happ should win the award. He deserves it more than any other candidate.
October 21, 200916 yr Isn't this the same exact argument that other guy made in the thread with the poll? I think the majority had spoken on that one. Anyway, I don't think the defense argument is that legitimate under the circumstances. It's something being conjured up by the stat snobs who refuse to look at the situation in context. Chris Coghlan is not a natural outfielder. In fact, he had not played the outfield since little league. He was called up because his team desperately needed his bat after Cameron Maybin proved that he needed more work and Jeremy Hermida was stinking up the joint. There is also the complicated Emilio Bonifacio saga but that's not important. The bottom line is that the Marlins needed an outfield bat badly and Coghlan was hitting extremely well in AAA so he got the call. I think he should be getting credit for playing left field as well as he did considering the circumstances. He probably won't be playing left field very much in the future, either. Of course these bloggers never see things this way. Statistics are nice but they only work if you apply common sense. Wasn't there an Albert Einstein quote about this? Tell me, how did Coghlan not being a natural outfielder increase his value this past season? He was brought into a situation that was unfamiliar to him, and he failed (defensively, at least), like one would expect. Does the fact that he played second base in college and throughout his minor league career have any impact on what he brought to the team this past season? He spent a grand total of 7 innings at second base, and spent all 1,039 of his other innings in left field. If someone is valuable in a certain area, but you don't use him for that specific cause, then his value decreases. Coghlan's value doesn't increase because of the situation the Marlins were in and what position they were in need of. His value was in his bat. That's why the Marlins called him up and that's why they had to force him to become a left-fielder. If the Marlins were so concerned about having a defensively strong outfielder they would have been starting Brett Carroll everyday. It's very clear to me what the Marlins expected Coghlan to be doing for them and it's even more clear that he succeeded in that task. I don't see why you keep on focusing on what the Marlins needed during the season, since that doesn't pertain to the topic at all. His value was his bat, but his liability was his glove. In the end, they almost cancel each other out. Since the Marlins forced him to play left field, that heavily subtracted his value, thus, decreasing the likelihood that he deserves the ROY award (whether the writers actually give it to him or not.) What the Marlins expected Coghlan to do has nothing to do with his place in the ROY voting. If you want to go that route, then I would assume McCutchen succeeded in what the Pirates expected from him, and the same thing goes for Hanson, Wells, Happ, and all of the other ROY candidates.
October 21, 200916 yr Ummmm... by the way Coghlan did not "fail" in left field. Yes I'm sure he was near or at the bottom of the league in whatever defensive metrics you'd like to throw out, but he fielded the position and didn't embarrass himself or the team. He also improved during the course of the season. And it was a position he hadn't played before. This wasn't going from 2nd to 3rd. Not that relevant to the ROY discussion, just saying it's not like he was a joke out there. He was fine. If he "failed", the team wouldn't have left him out there. He succeeded if you compare him to other players playing a position for the first time. Compared to other left fielders throughout the MLB though, he was well below average.
October 21, 200916 yr Good lord....after reading some posts on this board, you'd get the impression that Coghlan is the worst left fielder of all time - a real butcher. I didn't think he was any worse than having bad back cripple Willingham out there.
October 21, 200916 yr Seriously? We are back to arguing this crap again? The other thread is still floating around, you know....
October 21, 200916 yr Seriously? We are back to arguing this crap again? The other thread is still floating around, you know.... Yeah, this. Bo-ring. And Bo knows, trust me.
October 21, 200916 yr Author http://blogs.sun-sen...hris-coghlan-in Florida Marlins: BBA unkind to Chris Coghlan in NL ROY vote > Posted by Juan C. Rodriguez on October 19, 2009 09:36 PM That's BBA as in Baseball Bloggers Alliance. The BBA is mimicking the Baseball Writers Association awards, casting ballots for the Manager, Rookie, Cy Young and MVP honors in both leagues. Looks like they've gotten through the managers and rookies and are currently taking the Cy Young tally. I was a little surprised to see Chris Coghlan didn't get a ton of love in the NL ROY debate. The BBA's winner: Pirates OF Andrew McCutchen. Not only did Coghlan not win, he didn't make the podium! Placing and showing in the vote were Braves right-hander Tommy Hanson and Phillies lefty J.A. Happ. Michael Jong at the Marlins Maniac blog is a member of the BBA and has been casting his ballots. I've linked to Michael's work here in the past and he does a great job putting a Sabermetric spin on what's happening with the Fish. Oddly enough though, Michael altogether left Coghlan off his NL ROY ballot. Michael's top three: McCutchen, Cubs right-hander Randy Wells and Hanson. In his explanation, Michael penalizes Coghlan for his poor outfield play. My point to Michael was if you're going to condemn Coghlan for well below average defense at a position he'd never played, you also should celebrate him for excelling at a spot in the batting order that was foreign to him. I like McCutchen and he certainly is in the NL ROY conversation, but the historic nature of Coghlan's offensive season in my estimation makes his defensive shortcomings forgivable. Well they have lost all credibility with me, that's for sure Man, some of you are real homers about this. You might not agree with his opinion, but to say he loses all credibility is really ignorant. The guy stated why Coghlan isn't in his top 3, and the reason (defense) is legit. The top 3 mentioned also had very good years. Reminds of those thare so smart they are actually dumb...Can't see the forest for the trees. What bugs me the most is that Coghlan has had one of the most incredible rookie season in the history of the game, clearly recognized by the upper tier experts of the game and the stats geeks minimize it with meaningless fringe stats that have had insurmountable controversy in addition to a very minimal level of validity. Can anyone in their right mind actually say that McCutchen had a more outstanding rookie season than Coghlan? McCutchen had a very good rookie campaign, Coghlan had an extraordinary one. Stat geeks it's time to put away your pocket protectors and flow charts your reasoning does not hold water here, at least not this time. It's almost like trying to quantify who is the better between The Beatles or the garage Band that plays on Saturday nights. If that makes me a homer so be it...By the way those 3 had very good year but thats the problem...Coghlan had an amazing year! No matter if you are a Marlins fan or a fan of the game what Coghlan had done had not been seen in a lifetime. McCutchen...Happ...Hanson not so much!
October 21, 200916 yr http://blogs.sun-sen...hris-coghlan-in Florida Marlins: BBA unkind to Chris Coghlan in NL ROY vote > Posted by Juan C. Rodriguez on October 19, 2009 09:36 PM That's BBA as in Baseball Bloggers Alliance. The BBA is mimicking the Baseball Writers Association awards, casting ballots for the Manager, Rookie, Cy Young and MVP honors in both leagues. Looks like they've gotten through the managers and rookies and are currently taking the Cy Young tally. I was a little surprised to see Chris Coghlan didn't get a ton of love in the NL ROY debate. The BBA's winner: Pirates OF Andrew McCutchen. Not only did Coghlan not win, he didn't make the podium! Placing and showing in the vote were Braves right-hander Tommy Hanson and Phillies lefty J.A. Happ. Michael Jong at the Marlins Maniac blog is a member of the BBA and has been casting his ballots. I've linked to Michael's work here in the past and he does a great job putting a Sabermetric spin on what's happening with the Fish. Oddly enough though, Michael altogether left Coghlan off his NL ROY ballot. Michael's top three: McCutchen, Cubs right-hander Randy Wells and Hanson. In his explanation, Michael penalizes Coghlan for his poor outfield play. My point to Michael was if you're going to condemn Coghlan for well below average defense at a position he'd never played, you also should celebrate him for excelling at a spot in the batting order that was foreign to him. I like McCutchen and he certainly is in the NL ROY conversation, but the historic nature of Coghlan's offensive season in my estimation makes his defensive shortcomings forgivable. Well they have lost all credibility with me, that's for sure Man, some of you are real homers about this. You might not agree with his opinion, but to say he loses all credibility is really ignorant. The guy stated why Coghlan isn't in his top 3, and the reason (defense) is legit. The top 3 mentioned also had very good years. Reminds of those thare so smart they are actually dumb...Can't see the forest for the trees. What bugs me the most is that Coghlan has had one of the most incredible rookie season in the history of the game, clearly recognized by the upper tier experts of the game and the stats geeks minimize it with meaningless fringe stats that have had insurmountable controversy in addition to a very minimal level of validity. Can anyone in their right mind actually say that McCutchen had a more outstanding rookie season than Coghlan? McCutchen had a very good rookie campaign, Coghlan had an extraordinary one. Stat geeks it's time to put away your pocket protectors and flow charts your reasoning does not hold water here, at least not this time. It's almost like trying to quantify who is the better between The Beatles or the garage Band that plays on Saturday nights. If that makes me a homer so be it...By the way those 3 had very good year but thats the problem...Coghlan had an amazing year! No matter if you are a Marlins fan or a fan of the game what Coghlan had done had not been seen in a lifetime. McCutchen...Happ...Hanson not so much! It doesn't make you a homer, but it makes you a jerk for name-calling unprompted. And UZR is not a meaningless fringe stat. Not even close. Not perfect, but far from a meaningless fringe stat.
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