25K is the most on a Tuesday Night (non-opening day) since 1994. Chill out.

 

 

That just says Miami fans are bad.

Just from watching some of the other teams early on(with Extra Innings preview)looked like a lot of empty seats at most parks. Cincy looked like Sun Life the other day as did Atlanta, among other teams.

 

I would have guessed an average of 25K to start the year. I think that's about where it will end up. Or more obviously if we make a run.

 

The stadium in atlanta today looked like a ghost town

It was raining. And it was the middle of the day.

For those complaining about the attendance - if you don't live in South Fla and if you are worried so much about it, then move here and contribute to the attendance. if not then STFU about it already.

 

That's a sensible thing to say.

Just to put it in perspective ... The teams in bold had higher attendance then us. 6 out of the 15 teams, and those were the yankees, red sox, giants, brewers, cards, giants, angels ... all big market teams

 

You also have to consider matchups. The marlins are playing the cubs ... wait until the marlins play the phillies, braves, mets, etc. You'll see attendance pick up for sure.

 

Wed, 4/18/2012 ATTENDANCE:

 

MIA: 25,723

 

ATL: 17,909

ARZ: 18,368

WAS: 14,520

NYY: 36,831

TOR; 15,828

BOS: 37,967

CWS: 13,818

KC: 14,083

MIL: 30,189

STL: 35,907

COL: 24,762

SF: 41,101

SEA: 12,461

LAA: 41,016

What are peoples expectations?

 

Does anyone really think they are going to draw 30,000 a game over the course of the season?

 

I would anticipate that they would grab somewhere between 25k-27k on average over the season ..... putting them in that range between 16th-20th in the league

 

The stadium barely has the capacity to be a top 10 attendance teams

 

It is what it is ........ another thing to keep in mind is that not everyone is going to be buckled to their seat - especially with a new ballpark

 

Open concourses make it easy to wander, people want to check out different views, places like the budweiser bar will draw people in

-

I went to a game at target field it's 1st season and maybe spent 3 1/2 innings actually in my seat - about the same amount I spent in one of the bars that overlooked the field

 

 

16th to 20th in the NL ? Who are those other 4 mystery teams ? :huh

 

lame

 

oh noes - he said league to refer to all of major league baseball when discussing attendance of all teams ........ i'm going to make a dumbass comment about AL v NL because i'm too daft to understand context....................

Just to put it in perspective ... The teams in bold had higher attendance then us. 6 out of the 15 teams, and those were the yankees, red sox, giants, brewers, cards, giants, angels ... all big market teams

 

 

To be fair, south florida is the 8th largest MSA by population in the country, after NY, LA, chicago, houston, dallas, philly, and DC.

 

There are more people here than in boston, st.louis, san fran, etc. We should "be" one of those big-market teams, if going solely by market size.

What are peoples expectations?

 

Does anyone really think they are going to draw 30,000 a game over the course of the season?

 

I would anticipate that they would grab somewhere between 25k-27k on average over the season ..... putting them in that range between 16th-20th in the league

 

The stadium barely has the capacity to be a top 10 attendance teams

 

It is what it is ........ another thing to keep in mind is that not everyone is going to be buckled to their seat - especially with a new ballpark

 

Open concourses make it easy to wander, people want to check out different views, places like the budweiser bar will draw people in

-

I went to a game at target field it's 1st season and maybe spent 3 1/2 innings actually in my seat - about the same amount I spent in one of the bars that overlooked the field

 

 

16th to 20th in the NL ? Who are those other 4 mystery teams ? :huh

 

lame

 

oh noes - he said league to refer to all of major league baseball when discussing attendance of all teams ........ i'm going to make a dumbass comment about AL v NL because i'm too daft to understand context....................

 

I understood the context completely. That is an inexcusable mistake for one to make.

What are peoples expectations?

 

Does anyone really think they are going to draw 30,000 a game over the course of the season?

 

I would anticipate that they would grab somewhere between 25k-27k on average over the season ..... putting them in that range between 16th-20th in the league

 

The stadium barely has the capacity to be a top 10 attendance teams

 

It is what it is ........ another thing to keep in mind is that not everyone is going to be buckled to their seat - especially with a new ballpark

 

Open concourses make it easy to wander, people want to check out different views, places like the budweiser bar will draw people in

-

I went to a game at target field it's 1st season and maybe spent 3 1/2 innings actually in my seat - about the same amount I spent in one of the bars that overlooked the field

 

 

16th to 20th in the NL ? Who are those other 4 mystery teams ? :huh

 

lame

 

oh noes - he said league to refer to all of major league baseball when discussing attendance of all teams ........ i'm going to make a dumbass comment about AL v NL because i'm too daft to understand context....................

 

I understood the context completely. That is an inexcusable mistake for one to make.

I hope you're kidding...

I understood the context completely. That is an inexcusable mistake for one to make.

 

 

Oh, this is tremendously silly.

 

It's called Major League Baseball, guy.

Just to put it in perspective ... The teams in bold had higher attendance then us. 6 out of the 15 teams, and those were the yankees, red sox, giants, brewers, cards, giants, angels ... all big market teams

 

 

To be fair, south florida is the 8th largest MSA by population in the country, after NY, LA, chicago, houston, dallas, philly, and DC.

 

There are more people here than in boston, st.louis, san fran, etc. We should "be" one of those big-market teams, if going solely by market size.

 

Boston, Philly & St Louis etc. also have generations of history behind them. For us to be compared to them is always ridiculous.

 

Better comparisons will always be Phoenix & Tampa and to a lesser extent San Diego & LA. Phoenix and Tampa are similar to Miami as they both have populations that are made up of residents that are generally are 1st, and perhaps 2nd generation living there. San Diego & LA are both sort of similar since that even though they have been large cities for a while, they both have large %'s of their residents that are 1st & 2nd generations.

 

Another big problem for teams like Miami, Tampa and Phoenix will always have is the explosion of media in the game. Even as little as 20 years ago when the Marlins 1st came into the league, there was no internet coverage of the game, and neither was there much TV coverage other than Mets, Cubs, Braves and Yankees. ESPN had perhaps a game or two a week, and NBC had their Saturday afternoon games.

 

Today, you can live in Miami, and see every single Yankees game, chat with other Yankee fans on their message boards, tweet with Yankee fans and even Yankee beat writers, and even better tweet directly with Yankee players.

 

Who the hell needs the Marlins ?

 

That is why the Marlins, and I think Tampa and Phoenix will all find it much harder than other more established franchises to gain fiercely loyal long term fans. The only way to do this is to win, and continue to compete hard for those fans. This is where I feel Loria in some ways let his franchise down. He turned off a lot of potential loyal fans by going the route he did - el cheapo - back in 2006. But I understand he had to make a business decision, and I am sure it was difficult to do, since he knew that going by the route he wasn't going to be able to really compete unless he got very, very lucky. The team competed on the field, but as it went on year after year of very little star power (Hanley was really the only "star" he had after 2006, and in 2006 that was just "potential star" actually) and the crowds got smaller and smaller. Fans never saw any hope so they just said why come to come, if its only going to ultimately be frustrating at the end of the season.

 

If you analyze other teams you'll see much the same has happened to them as well. Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Baltimore and Cleveland have all seen the same thing happen to their fanchises. 20 years ago KC & Pittsburgh, and 12-15 years ago Baltimore & Cleveland, and as little as 4 years ago Seattle, were averaging 25,000 a game or more. Last night Seattle had one of its lowest attendances ever, and last year they had their lowest ever at 11,500 (or so). I'm sure Houston is joining this bunch later this year, if they haven't already.

 

Whats more troubling than anything is that all of these teams had exactly what the Marlins said they needed to compete and that is a new stadium (all got one except for KC which extensively has remodeled its stadium in the last 4 or 5 years). They all found out it took more than just a shiny new toy to compete. That is where Loria may have his next problem. He needs to start diverting every dollar he can into scouting. Drafting the next generation of players is the only way to eventually compete with teams like the Yankees, Red Sox and others with deeper pockets. You need to be able to continually be drafting the next Giancarlo Stanton because you will not be able to keep all of your players once the newness of the stadium wears off and the fans say, okay, "Nice stadium, but ????" Giancarlo Stanton is going to cost the Marlins at least $ 125 million to keep. If you have Hanley, JJ and Stanton all on the team making $ 10 million + you will have to have a number of cost controlled players on your team just to be able to afford those 3. Hitting HRs in the draft will be the best and cheapest way to do that, and that means starting to hit on those 1st round draft picks.

 

I can't remember the last time the Marlins actually had a 1st round pick that actually made it as a star. Coghlan did win RoY but since then has been a bit of a disappointment. But just look at the picks since 2002......Hermida 2002 (for the most part a bust), Jeffrey Allison 2003 (complete bust), Taylor Tankersley 2004 (bust), 2005 we took Volstad, Aaron Tompson, Jacob Marceaux, Ryan Tucker and Sean West - F I V E - pitchers and only one of them even made it to the majors with some significant playing time (that draft alone should have gotten Beinfest fired), Brett Sinkbeil & Chris Coghlan 2006 (with Coglan only making MLB). For the picks 2007 and on I don't think its fair to call them busts yet, but Skipworth is getting very close.

 

But think of this, had Beinfest hit on just one of those 8 pitchers he drafted in the 1st round, Mark Buerhle would have been unecessary. You could have used that money to get an established CF or put more money into your BP, or upgrade on the bench, or dare I say SCOUTING. Many people here disagree but I think Loria can do better than Beinfest, and when Theo Epstein became available this year, I think he should have been all over him in getting him here.

Beinfest has almost never had money to spend in the draft. The Marlins have routinely been among the bottom 5 in draft spending.

For those complaining about the attendance - if you don't live in South Fla and if you are worried so much about it, then move here and contribute to the attendance. if not then STFU about it already.

 

 

That's bs because life doesn't work that way. No family in Florida and requirement of basically starting from scratch in my career, no thanks. Maybe i care because i dont want my favorite team to end up being the Portland, San Antonio or Charlotte something's in the next few decades. Even though having a team in Charlotte, less than two hours away would be nice, I don't want it being the Marlins I think half of my romanticism with the team is that its in a tropical enviîronment opposite of my own. It's something different.

 

Im can understand 25,000 plus for weekdays and 30 plus for weekends but less than that is line. New stadium, no raindelays, a new rosters; it shouldn't be less than those numbers during the summer.

 

The Phoenix coyotes were my favorite NHL team before the Carolina Hurricanes. My disgust with that Fanbase and a minor bit to the organization is high. Excuses and excuses are made by the fans. I don't want the Marlins to go through that 10 years or so down the line.

 

I think we're fine right now but if it goes below those numbers I listed For summer games, I would start getting worried.

For those complaining about the attendance - if you don't live in South Fla and if you are worried so much about it, then move here and contribute to the attendance. if not then STFU about it already.

 

Le sigh.

 

Thankfully I'm moving back to South Florida soon, so +1 me to attendance for a few games hopefully.

 

 

Also - Admin lives in New York ... is he not allowed to complain about attendance, even though he's been a fan since the team began?

25K is the most on a Tuesday Night (non-opening day) since 1994. Chill out.

 

 

That just says Miami fans are bad.

 

pretty sure that has already been established. we're shooting for "getting better".

You are confusing market and population. The entire population of a city does not equal the market.

 

Huh. Usually, you're quite rational.

 

Whether or not any given segment of a "population" wants to go to baseball games is another question, but, the "market" is the entire population of any given area. He's not confusing anything.

now press starting say like their did at sunlight we cannot pack place up doing week games we not going see alot sellout maybe on fri,sat.sunday

Just to put it in perspective ... The teams in bold had higher attendance then us. 6 out of the 15 teams, and those were the yankees, red sox, giants, brewers, cards, giants, angels ... all big market teams

 

 

To be fair, south florida is the 8th largest MSA by population in the country, after NY, LA, chicago, houston, dallas, philly, and DC.

 

There are more people here than in boston, st.louis, san fran, etc. We should "be" one of those big-market teams, if going solely by market size.You are confusing market and population. The entire population of a city does not equal the market.

 

No no, South Fla is the target consumers.

You also need to look at the demographics within that market ....... but that is getting a bit more complex

You are confusing market and population. The entire population of a city does not equal the market.

 

Huh. Usually, you're quite rational.

 

Whether or not any given segment of a "population" wants to go to baseball games is another question, but, the "market" is the entire population of any given area. He's not confusing anything.

 

It can really be defined either way i think. You can label the market as the entire population, or the segment of the population that has interest in attending games. my point was that our population is f***ing big and we should be able to get people to games.

One thing to consider is that the Miami/Fort Lauderdale/West Palm Beach market may be incredibly spread out, relative to other markets, especially when one considers the location of the park. It may not be fair to compare it to other metropolitan areas.

Beinfest has almost never had money to spend in the draft. The Marlins have routinely been among the bottom 5 in draft spending.

 

 

Terrible strategy. If you had spent on the scouting and draft, then you could possibly have been the Tampa Bay Rays, with their farm system and this new stadium. Just think about that.

 

As it is, its the Nationals that are going to be that team, and I can see us becoming the next Baltimore Orioles. I'm afraid Loria will sooner rather than later get tired of shelling out big cash if he is not seeing the results. The fans here to will get weary of a team that doesn't produce on the field. This is a critical year. We have to win to keep their interest.

For those complaining about the attendance - if you don't live in South Fla and if you are worried so much about it, then move here and contribute to the attendance. if not then STFU about it already.

 

Le sigh.

 

Thankfully I'm moving back to South Florida soon, so +1 me to attendance for a few games hopefully.

 

 

Also - Admin lives in New York ... is he not allowed to complain about attendance, even though he's been a fan since the team began?

 

He can complain but if he does, it just looks like whining. If you can't help the situation, just droning on about does nothing. This topic and thread should be closed it does nothing to change the situation, it is what it is. Complaining about it is just a dead topic.

For those complaining about the attendance - if you don't live in South Fla and if you are worried so much about it, then move here and contribute to the attendance. if not then STFU about it already.

 

Le sigh.

 

Thankfully I'm moving back to South Florida soon, so +1 me to attendance for a few games hopefully.

 

 

Also - Admin lives in New York ... is he not allowed to complain about attendance, even though he's been a fan since the team began?

 

He can complain but if he does, it just looks like whining. If you can't help the situation, just droning on about does nothing. This topic and thread should be closed it does nothing to change the situation, it is what it is. Complaining about it is just a dead topic.

 

In that logic, you have no right to complain about Beinfest, because there is nothing you as an individual can do that will change it you.

 

 

That goes foe basically all the other crap we complain about too if that's the case.

One thing to consider is that the Miami/Fort Lauderdale/West Palm Beach market may be incredibly spread out, relative to other markets, especially when one considers the location of the park. It may not be fair to compare it to other metropolitan areas.

 

 

As I posted earlier this market cannot fairly be compared to even smaller markets, because they have generational ties to their franchises that can go back 4 or 5 generations for some of them. This is a new market for MLB (relatively speaking) and with these markets it can be more closely compared to are just a few and that is Phoenix and Tampa Bay. And even with that you are comparing cities with vastly different demographics. Phoenix has a significant part of its newer population as older & retired, and therefore possibly already attached to another team, and that also goes in Tampa Bay.

 

However the population in South Florida and particularly Miami-Dade County and to a lesser extent but still significantly in Boward has changed in recent years, even since the Marlins have arrived on the scene. There are significantly lower numbers of retired people living in Miami-Dade County now than there were 20 years ago due to a number of reasons.

 

1st Hurricane Andrew - that displaced 250,000 people all by itself, in southern Miami-Dade, a large number of which were retirees who lived in South Dade as military pensioners. Homestead AFB used to have a full service medical hospital and medical service center as well as a full service BX (Air Force base exchange) that retirees could use. That attracted thousands to trailer parks and lower income retiree centric housing. When those people became displaced after the storm many of them left Miami completely and were replaced by Hispanics many of which were Mexican and other Central American nationalities. Even though baseball is played in those countries, due to the difference in culture, those people would not normally be as attracted to baseball.

 

2nd South Beach & Aventura areas of Miami have completely changed their demographics in the last 15 or so years. Those area were mainly populated by older retired Jewish couples that had moved here from mostly the northeast. As many of them died off or moved away, they have been replaced by a younger & more Hispanic demographic. Many of which are not die hard baseball fans. Some of them even come from countries where baseball is not even played very much (Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, etc). That also gives the Marlins a harder population in which to draw from. This is something the Marlins are trying to do - attract the Hispanics because they make up about 65% of the Miami-Dade County population now. Non-Hispanic whites are about 15% and Afro-Americans about 15%. (http://hagasecontar.yaeshora.info/news?id=0402)

 

Broward county has experienced to a lesser degree the same kind of demographic change, with an ever larger expansion of their Hispanic population, and the older Jewish population retreating in large numbers. Too you have to also factor in the homosexual population growth in Broward County, which now is a significant population in that county, much like it was for many years in San Francisco. Boward County I believe has the 4th or 5th largest homosexual demographic now in the nation. That demographic is not known to support sports as a priority so you have that factor working also against the Marlins.

 

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Lauderdale,_Florida#Demographics

In recent decades (starting around the 1980s), the city has become known for having a large gay community and being a popular vacation spot for gay and lesbian tourists. Even though the LGBTpresence is noticeable all over Fort Lauderdale, the highest concentration of gay and lesbian residents are in the neighborhoods of Victoria Park and Middle River Terrace, and in the townships ofOakland Park and Wilton Manors, with the latter often being called the 'Gay-borhood' or the 'Gay village'.

 

These factors as well as the media explosion I mentioned in my previous post, all point towards the Marlins having a much harder time in selling the Marlins to the South Fla population. I'm sure that many of you that live in very white-bred homogenized and strictly All-American cities like St Louis or Nashville or Cincinnati cannot begin to comprehend the diversity that exists in this community (and frankly makes it so effing great to live here) and how much harder it is to sell a sport that is not usually a top priority in those cultural-centric communities we have here.

 

Bottom line, its a much tougher sell here than just about any other market in the US, and that is a fact.

For those complaining about the attendance - if you don't live in South Fla and if you are worried so much about it, then move here and contribute to the attendance. if not then STFU about it already.

 

Le sigh.

 

Thankfully I'm moving back to South Florida soon, so +1 me to attendance for a few games hopefully.

 

 

Also - Admin lives in New York ... is he not allowed to complain about attendance, even though he's been a fan since the team began?

 

He can complain but if he does, it just looks like whining. If you can't help the situation, just droning on about does nothing. This topic and thread should be closed it does nothing to change the situation, it is what it is. Complaining about it is just a dead topic.

 

In that logic, you have no right to complain about Beinfest, because there is nothing you as an individual can do that will change it you.

 

 

That goes foe basically all the other crap we complain about too if that's the case.

 

This something you can change if you wish......you could move here and change the equation. You can do that, its a matter of wanting to do it or not.