July 31, 201214 yr I wanted to go back and review Beinfest's trades to determine which trades he won, lost, or drew. Here they are, broken down by team: Arizona: trades Jorge Julio for Yusmeiro Petit (2007). Push. "Our guy" was horrid in teal, coughing up 13 earned runs in 9+ innings. Petit went 9-19 in 3 seasons. Atlanta: trades Tim Spooneybarger, Ryan Baker for Mike Hampton (2002). Lost. A salary dump, essentially. Allowed us to get Juan Pierre though (see COL, below). Atlanta: trades Mike Dunn, Omar Infante for Dan Uggla (2010). Won. Infante never performed like last season in ATL, Uggla? A 117 OPS+ hitter in Miami is only 101 in ATL. Baltimore: trades Jeff Conine for Don Levinski, Denny Bautista (2003). Won. Levinski never panned out, Bautista a forgettable 11-15 with 5.88 Era. And Conine had "the throw." Baltimore: trades Hayden Penn for Robert Andino (2009). Lost. Penn was a bust; Andino is at least serviceable middle IFer Baltimore: trades Will Ohman for Rick Vandenhurk (2010). Won. Ohman pitched well as a rental, Vandenhurk never did much. Boston: trades Hanley, Anibal Sanchez and others for Beckett, Mike Lowell, and G. Mota (2005) Push Boston: trades Hunter Jones, Jose Alvarez for Jeremy Hermida (2009) Push Poor grade for drafting Hermida (subject of a future thread) Boston: trades Dustin Richardson for Andrew Miller (2010) Push The epilogue for the worst trade in Marlins history (see Detroit, below) Boston: trades Mike Cameron for cash. Push (depends on the amount of cash). Cubs: trade Dontrelle, Julian Tavarez, others for Alfonseca, Matt Clement (2002). Win Willis was ROY, key catalyst in turning around 2003 Cubs: trade Hee Seop Choi, Mike Nannini for Derrek Lee (2003). Lost Marlins haven't been to the playoffs since trading cornerstone 1b. Cubs: trade Ricky Nolasco, Sergio Mitre, Reynel Pinto for Juan Pierre (2005). Won Rare to have all 3 minor league pitchers in a trade contribute, Pierre did get 200 hits in lone season in Chi Cubs: Todd Wellemeyer for Lincoln Holdzkom (2006). Push Forgettable Cubs trade Jose Ceda for Kevin Gregg (2008). Incomplete If Ceda winds up not playing in ML, then loss because couldve netted more for Gregg. Cubs trade Zambrano for Chris Volstad (2012). Won, but barely. Again, the real story is what a draft bust Volstad was. If you all want me to go on, I will go through more trades.
July 31, 201214 yr If we're doing this after the fact thing, the Andrew Miller deal was a loss. I dislike Andrew Miller very much these days.
July 31, 201214 yr Looking at the bottom line, his W/L record is below .500 and the past 3 years is one of the worst in baseball. I don't get why he gets a free pass.
July 31, 201214 yr Looking at the bottom line, his W/L record is below .500 and the past 3 years is one of the worst in baseball. I don't get why he gets a free pass. Who?
July 31, 201214 yr I think Beinfest's track record has been average as far as trades go. What's really glaring is the utter lack of success from the draft. Stanton looks like a stud, but who else have they drafted in their entire tenure that has gone on to become a steady major league starter?
July 31, 201214 yr I think the Hanley trade would be a push if not for Anibal. Obviously we got a great player in the deal, but I don't know what else we were expected to get when dealing an ace-caliber, world series MVP pitcher only entering his age 26 season. Plus Mike Lowell redeemed himself there and became a postseason hero for them. Right now, it seems as if this discussion includes a lot of 2003 era trades. I think the result of that season speaks for itself, but it's Beinfest's record from the post-2005 firesale onward that really needs to be examined. Inevitably we are going to find some pieces that he got in trades, but it's with the potentially most valuable pieces that he really screwed the pooch. Also, while there is some value to examining how players have played after a trade, one must really examine how players performed before the trade. If a player we traded tanked after being traded, but was an all-star caliber player for multiple seasons, did we really win the trade if the guy who tanked netted us an average starter? In my mind, if you trade an (at the time) all-star caliber player, the player you receive should at least approach all-star caliber (not saying this in regards to any particular situation).
July 31, 201214 yr I think the Hanley trade was a huge win, like tremendous. He was the face of the franchise, won batting titles, multiple all-star, etc. If he hadn't slowed down as of late I'm sure everyone would be more on board but I still see it as a win. And Anibal was a very solid contributor for years. Lowell had his moments for BOS but overall nothing special, and Beckett has had as many good years as bad years for BOS. My thoughts. I really think we've won the majority of the trades, and I've liked most of them. Sometimes the prospects don't work, it happens. The only times we got destroyed was because we were forced or trying to shed salary because of a firesale. When we traded away Derrek Lee and of course Miguel Cabrera. The Miggy one was soul crushing but I pray that those kind of moves and trades are over now. A larger concern and I agree with you guys is that we've had multiple misses in our drafts, not to mention I don't think we're spending nearly enough on Int'l prospects. If we are and I don't know abotu it, then it must mean we're missing like crazy there too.
July 31, 201214 yr Hanley trade is a loss. Never liked Hanley. I'll take Mike Lowell's defense over Hanley's offense any day. Also the hidden ball trick, that was awesome. The man only has one ball! He beat cancer, Hanley punched a cooling fan and then got his hand infected. He's amazing. Anibal is a good pitcher but Beckett is superior - in 7 years Anibals W-L record is 44-46, Beckett at twelve years is 130-90. Extrapolating Anibals numbers to twelve years and Beckett still comes out on top in wins. Becketts got at least 1639 strike outs in twelve years. Anibal has 679 in 7. That's about 140 per year for Beckett and 98 per year for Anibal. I dont see a win In a trade where we got a no hitter and some batting titles while the red sox got two championship pedigree All Star MVP's and a Ring. Peanuts.
July 31, 201214 yr Your list lost all credibility when you called Mike Hampton to ATL a loss and a salary dump. He refused to report to Florida and was never meant to be in our rotation. The Marlins if I remember correctly actually paid for Hampton to pitch in ATL
July 31, 201214 yr Hanley trade is a loss. Never liked Hanley. I'll take Mike Lowell's defense over Hanley's offense any day. Also the hidden ball trick, that was awesome. The man only has one ball! He beat cancer, Hanley punched a cooling fan and then got his hand infected. He's amazing. Anibal is a good pitcher but Beckett is superior - in 7 years Anibals W-L record is 44-46, Beckett at twelve years is 130-90. Extrapolating Anibals numbers to twelve years and Beckett still comes out on top in wins. Becketts got at least 1639 strike outs in twelve years. Anibal has 679 in 7. That's about 140 per year for Beckett and 98 per year for Anibal. I dont see a win In a trade where we got a no hitter and some batting titles while the red sox got two All Star MVP's and a Championship. Peanuts. If it makes you feel any better, we traded Sheffield, Johnson, Bonilla, Jim Eisenrich and Manual Barrios for Nathan Eovaldi. You figure it out
July 31, 201214 yr With the improvements ceda had made I was really excited to see him pitch this year. Hopefully next year.
July 31, 201214 yr Hanley trade is a loss. Never liked Hanley. I'll take Mike Lowell's defense over Hanley's offense any day. Also the hidden ball trick, that was awesome. The man only has one ball! He beat cancer, Hanley punched a cooling fan and then got his hand infected. He's amazing. Anibal is a good pitcher but Beckett is superior - in 7 years Anibals W-L record is 44-46, Beckett at twelve years is 130-90. Extrapolating Anibals numbers to twelve years and Beckett still comes out on top in wins. Becketts got at least 1639 strike outs in twelve years. Anibal has 679 in 7. That's about 140 per year for Beckett and 98 per year for Anibal. I dont see a win In a trade where we got a no hitter and some batting titles while the red sox got two championship pedigree All Star MVP's and a Ring. Peanuts. When a team has a fire sale, those players are G.O.N.E. It wasn't an option of keeping Lowell and Beckett. We traded the stars, and we got two stars and two very great players who had great careers as Marlins. For having so much logic with the rest of this, I'm having a hard time seeing your logic with this. It doesn't matter if you didn't like Hanley. The fact is that he was brought in and his value was in fact greater than Lowell's for the years to come, meanwhile Sanchez's value was around equal to Beckett's. There's not many situations where you make a trade in that fashion, and just about everything pans out.
July 31, 201214 yr We traded the stars, and we got two stars and two very great players who had great careers as Marlins. The illogic is even worse than that. We traded a star -- singular -- and forced them to take the severely underperforming Lowell and his large money off of our hands to get Beckett. Baby Hanley was a beast for 4 years and crap for 3. Sort of like Beckett. Sanchez was gravy, but Boston fans love Lowell -- he revived, earned his money and helped them win a ring. Found an interesting piece on the trade written in March, '11 when I was looking around for info on the non-entities (Mota, Delgado, Garcia) involved in the trade. The upshot (through '10) ignoring the non-entities: Cum WAR/cum cost ('06-'10): Beckett 13.1 / 44.4 Lowell 12.6 / 55.5 Ramirez 29.0 / 13.7 Sanchez 7.6 / 2.4 http://passion4baseb...irez-trade.html The Sox paid 3.6 mill per WAR, 9 times our cost of .4 mill per WAR. That's clearly a big win for Beinfest no matter how anyone slices it. The Sox also consider it a win because they got a ring, just as we consider Uggi for Gonzalez a win because we won in '03.
July 31, 201214 yr The Beinfest era started with some great trades, even though they involved getting rid of fan favorites. The trade of Alfonseca and Clement to the Cubs that netted Tavarez and more importantly D-Train and then trading Dempster and Floyd in deals that got Mordecai, Pavano and Encarnacion. He fared above average in trades that were salary dumps after the 2005 season getting Nolasco, Mitre and Pinto from the Cubs for Pierre, managed Jacobs for Delgado and of course Hanley and Anibal for Beckett and Lowell, but essentially nothing for Castillo. Since that time I see very few trades you could call winners on his or the FO's behalf, The best recent trade was the below the radar pick up of Ruggiano.
July 31, 201214 yr Looking at the bottom line, his W/L record is below .500 and the past 3 years is one of the worst in baseball. I don't get why he gets a free pass. Who? Beinfest gets a free pass from the media.
July 31, 201214 yr The 2005 team was not going to be a winner in 06, 07 or beyond. The loss of Cabrera and the 2008-2010 failure to upgrade Cantu and the rotation are what kept this team from winning enough games in `09 and `10.
July 31, 201214 yr It's not illogical to say that Lowell's defense is better than HanRam's. Its the little things that count, and id take better fielding over a hot streak at the plate any day. Hanley is a horrible infielder. And he punched a fan.
July 31, 201214 yr Hot streak at the plate? 3 years is not a hot streak at the plate. A batting title is not a hot streak at the plate. Mike Lowell's (now retired) aging self and his defense does not come close to Hanley Ramirez. Fact. '...' even provided statistical evidence to show that much. Even if you're trying to compare Hanley to Beckett you don't have an argument. But Hanley to Lowell? No sense at all. That's not a loss of a trade. That's a steal.
July 31, 201214 yr The Hanley trade was a huge win. I think it's far too soon to judge the trade, as Eovaldi is a rookie and considering Hanley is still very young I think it could go either way. As for the recent trades: 1. Matt Dominguez and Rob Rasmussen for Lee: Lost, due to the fact that he became irrelevant not long after the deal and hasn't played well either. 2. Anibal and Infante for Turner, Brantly, others: Win, just due to the fact that Anibal was going to walk as a FA (although that's partially the FO's fault) and Infante was playing way over his head. Turner's one of the best prospects in the game, and Brantly can play next year. 3. Hanley and Choate for Nate Eovaldi and another prospect: Too soon to tell, for reasons above 4. Mujica for Cox: Win, just because we needed the depth at 3rd and someone to play, and Mujica's not that great anyway. 5. Gaby and a junk prospect for Gorkys Hernandez and the 33rd 2013 pick: Too soon to tell. Gaby's a wild card still (although I think he's probably not going to replicate that one season), and we don't know who the draft pick is yet. Will have to be re-evaluated next May.
July 31, 201214 yr Hanley trade is a loss. Never liked Hanley. I'll take Mike Lowell's defense over Hanley's offense any day. Also the hidden ball trick, that was awesome. The man only has one ball! He beat cancer, Hanley punched a cooling fan and then got his hand infected. He's amazing. Anibal is a good pitcher but Beckett is superior - in 7 years Anibals W-L record is 44-46, Beckett at twelve years is 130-90. Extrapolating Anibals numbers to twelve years and Beckett still comes out on top in wins. Becketts got at least 1639 strike outs in twelve years. Anibal has 679 in 7. That's about 140 per year for Beckett and 98 per year for Anibal. I dont see a win In a trade where we got a no hitter and some batting titles while the red sox got two championship pedigree All Star MVP's and a Ring. Peanuts. Some people should never use statistics and you're one of them. That post was the worst.
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