13-12 isn't bad considering our best pitchers only won 14. The problem is getting the W's until AJ is back.

13-12 isn't bad when you have run support either. My only gripe is his high era throughout his career...

Wins dont mean too much when your a pitcher because if you dont get run support theres no way you can win. I'm sure Oliver had great run support. As a 5th starter he isnt bad but I would have liked to seen Tejera get a chance.

Tejera will get a chance. I like seeing someone who comes off the mound with a W. Plus, Oliver logged 180 innings, which is a VERY vital stat because he saves the bullpen. This is an excellent signing based on the dollars available. Heck, we are getting a guy similar to Redman and he costs 3 mil less.

Wins dont mean too much when your a pitcher because if you dont get run support theres no way you can win. I'm sure Oliver had great run support. As a 5th starter he isnt bad but I would have liked to seen Tejera get a chance.

Tejera will get a chance. I like seeing someone who comes off the mound with a W. Plus, Oliver logged 180 innings, which is a VERY vital stat because he saves the bullpen. This is an excellent signing based on the dollars available. Heck, we are getting a guy similar to Redman and he costs 3 mil less. no he is definitely not similar to redman

 

look at the stats

 

ANYONE will take redman over this stinker

Wins dont mean too much when your a pitcher because if you dont get run support theres no way you can win. I'm sure Oliver had great run support. As a 5th starter he isnt bad but I would have liked to seen Tejera get a chance.

Tejera will get a chance. I like seeing someone who comes off the mound with a W. Plus, Oliver logged 180 innings, which is a VERY vital stat because he saves the bullpen. This is an excellent signing based on the dollars available. Heck, we are getting a guy similar to Redman and he costs 3 mil less. 180 innings? I thought the workhorses in the league, barring injury, pitched at least 200+ innings. Though he does certainly have durablility.

Everyone forgets that he pitched in a hitters ballpark

I think he will pitch very well at the Pro.

what i love is how repeatin has failed to address my question.

Everyone forgets that he pitched in a hitters ballpark

I think he will pitch very well at the Pro.

Yes, he did, but:

 

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/ml...9984&statType=2

 

His ERA at home was nearly a full run lower than his away ERA (4.50 to 5.45). His ERA before the All-Star break was 4.67, and after it was .9 higher, at 5.57. He's perhaps not as durable as some of you think!

After reading his career stats, about the only redeeming quality that I see to this guy is that he has a respectable-for-a-pitcher career batting average of .239.

 

Seriously, the Marlins are better off having Michael Tejera be the fifth starter until AJ returns. I think he could do the job just as well (if not better) than Oliver.

Repeatin' reminds me of me. Although a smart and bold poster, he gets branded because, *gasps*, he has an opinion. Although I do believe wins/losses is the most overrated stat in the game (besides OPS), this may be the pot calling the kettle black, but be a little more open minded.

 

Oliver is a fine pickup to be a fifth starter for a month, but don't look at it being any more than that. I would not be happy if it were to be the fifth starter all year, but it's not, so get over it. He may be getting overpaid, but an extra $250,000 won't kill us people. We now have three potential left-handed relievers, making the bullpen quite even in that department.

exactly the point. This is a FIFTH STARTER. Not our ACE. I'm not saying go with a guy with a 5.00 ERA as our ACE. But I do contend that the stat geeks twist W/L to fit their argument. When Willis won the ROY, I heard all the Brandon Webb folks crying about his lower ERA. Well, to me, a good ERA for a starter is regarded as under 4.00. Anything under 3.5 is very good. Dontrelle had a 3.30 ERA to Webb's 2.84. Dontrelle however was 14-6 and Webb was 10-9. So something is missing. Obviously, Webb didn't get enough runs. Then again, he didn't do his job preventing them when it mattered. I argue that pitchers are competiting against each other in the specific game. If you have a 2 run lead, you may play for allowing a run in a certain situation. Hence, your ERA could raise based on circumstances. Never downplay the importance of Wins. A guy like Oliver has won more than 80 games and he logged 180 innings. He isn't Randy Johnson, but he is better than Tejera and good enough to make the argument that his 5-something ERA is a major concern.

Repeatin' reminds me of me. Although a smart and bold poster, he gets branded because, *gasps*, he has an opinion. Although I do believe wins/losses is the most overrated stat in the game (besides OPS), this may be the pot calling the kettle black, but be a little more open minded.

 

Oliver is a fine pickup to be a fifth starter for a month, but don't look at it being any more than that. I would not be happy if it were to be the fifth starter all year, but it's not, so get over it. He may be getting overpaid, but an extra $250,000 won't kill us people. We now have three potential left-handed relievers, making the bullpen quite even in that department.

exactly the point. This is a FIFTH STARTER. Not our ACE. I'm not saying go with a guy with a 5.00 ERA as our ACE. But I do contend that the stat geeks twist W/L to fit their argument. When Willis won the ROY, I heard all the Brandon Webb folks crying about his lower ERA. Well, to me, a good ERA for a starter is regarded as under 4.00. Anything under 3.5 is very good. Dontrelle had a 3.30 ERA to Webb's 2.84. Dontrelle however was 14-6 and Webb was 10-9. So something is missing. Obviously, Webb didn't get enough runs. Then again, he didn't do his job preventing them when it mattered. I argue that pitchers are competiting against each other in the specific game. If you have a 2 run lead, you may play for allowing a run in a certain situation. Hence, your ERA could raise based on circumstances. Never downplay the importance of Wins. A guy like Oliver has won more than 80 games and he logged 180 innings. He isn't Randy Johnson, but he is better than Tejera and good enough to make the argument that his 5-something ERA is a major concern.

Birds of a feather flock together. :whistle

Everyone forgets that he pitched in a hitters ballpark

Stats show that his ERA was about a half point lower at home than on the road. Although it's inevitable that he will do better in Pro Player than Coors, the switching stadiums arguement doesn't fly.

I have to agree with repeatin04 on this one. Certain pitchers tend to worry about the game at hand, meaning that if they're up 8-1, they may throw nothing but strikes and give up a few runs, but hold on for the Win. Other pitchers pitch like it's a 1-run game all the time. Whether or not you agree with that philosophy is not relevant. Fact is, Oliver won 13 games last year, has a career record over .500 and that's not easy to do.

 

Plus, as other people have mentioned already, he's our #5 starter for about a month. Then A.J comes back and he goes into the bullpen....Simmer down, people...

Wins and losses are overrated? Ok, but so is ERA. It isnt exactly a perfect gauge of success - some guy could get lit up one game for 15 runs in 1 inning and totally blow his otherwise solid 3.00 ERA up. Not saying that this is what happened to Oliver, but that sometimes you have to go beyond stats.

 

That said, I cant. I like this signing and here is why:

 

Coors Field 4.50ERA 78IP 12HR .293AVG 7-3 89H 26BB 40K

-a hitters dreamland, and was able to spread out those hits and keep a 4.50ERA

 

JRS 4.50 6.0IP .208AVG 5H 1BB 2K

-very little statwise to go on, but dimensions will favor him

 

Dodger Stadium 2.08 21.1IP .179AVG 1-2 14H 2BB 15K

- a spacious park similar to ours. these stats make me drool...

 

He is a lefty. He will benefit from pitching in a more spacious ballpark. He was able to put up solid numbers while in Colorado, a field I consider to be equivalent to an AL team (take 1ER off to estimate) - and that may be very conservative.

 

I think he could win 10+ games for us and have anywhere from 3.50-4.50 ERA. Good move.

Marlins Giants brought up a good point: despite his career ERA that tops 5.00, in the process, the man has a winning record. He's not still a major leaguer because the ball is released from the left side of his body and not the right, but because he simply wins. That's all we're asking him to do until A.J. gets back.

 

I could care less if his ERA is 15.00, as long as he goes 4-0 while A.J. is gone.

Everyone forgets that he pitched in a hitters ballpark

Stats show that his ERA was about a half point lower at home than on the road. Although it's inevitable that he will do better in Pro Player than Coors, the switching stadiums arguement doesn't fly. Why not? In fact a year ago detractors of Juan Pierre were trying to say that he would not be nearly as successful in Florida as he was in Colorado. I didnt see the validity in that argument then, and I certainly dont understand how a pitcher could go from a hitter's paradise to a pitcher's park and NOT benefit. Look at his stats in pitcher's park last year and even at Colorado. Nothing there is bad - I think this could be a steal when all is said and done.

 

Oliver > than Tejera or any other candidate we have for #5 at this point (except Burnett, of course - but he wont be ready IMO until 2005).

 

The argument that this is even protection against Willis' letdown is good too. I dont think Willis is going to win 14 games this year, but I dont think he is going to be bad either. He will put up good numbers - he has good stuff. I even think Oliver could equal Redman's numbers.

alright :cheers

 

This guy is gonna do just fine. He is the man.

I see him winning alot and his era in the high 3's.

Don't worry about it. :marlins

Everyone forgets that he pitched in a hitters ballpark

Stats show that his ERA was about a half point lower at home than on the road. Although it's inevitable that he will do better in Pro Player than Coors, the switching stadiums arguement doesn't fly.

What you mean is you aren't convinced the argument has merit.

 

The Marlins obviously believe he will perform well (enough) here or they wouldn't have given him the contract they did. Since half of their games are played at PPS, which means roughly half his starts are projected to be at PPS, they must believe he will perform well here or they wouldn't have brought him in.

 

You can argue with conventional wisdom about pitching in Coors Stadium if you want but it seems to me Coors and PPS represent two stadiums at opposite ends of a spectrum. One is considered hitter friendly, the other considered by most to be pitcher friendly. One can draw the conclusion that coming from Coors to PPS has to translate into SOME benefit for the pitcher.

ok i really dont see this in a postive light, i would rather seen the money used on another position. On top of that i dont believe oliver was a great choice, a 4.50 era isnt bad at Coors, but his 5.45 era on the road is. Hopefully a change a new team will turn him into a high 3 era, which is the best i see him being. Hopefully he wont see a lot of starts because Burnett will return and send him to the pen.

 

 

 

Only good thing is less pressure on Burnett to return to the mound fast, i hope.

what the hell...this guy sucks ass and should have recieved nothing more than a minor league deal.

what the hell...this guy sucks ass and should have recieved nothing more than a minor league deal.

 

We've missed your eloquence and thought-provoking contributions Sham lol :notworthy

oliver is the man

How did Jose Lima get signed to a minor league contract and we signed this guy for $750,000?

Who's the career leader in losses?

 

Cy Young, people.

 

Wins and losses are not one of the most overrated stats for pitchers as Adam said. They are THE most overrated stats.

 

A great pitcher on a horrible team will not win games no matter what. If he gets no run support, it doesn't matter how well he pitches.

 

That being said, ERA has its faults too. (Check out Dennis Tankersley by the way...he gave up 7 runs in 0 innings in 03 and technically his ERA is infinity.)

 

Now, THAT being said, JC has a very good point. His ERA may be over 5, but somehow he's pitched well enough to stay in the big leagues for a long time, AND compile a winning record. Rob Neyer said this about the strikeout record; that someone has to be good enough to be able to play everyday while striking out nearly 200 times. And the same holds true with losing 20 games.

Theres no way around it kotsay...this guy is absolute garbage. I'd be alright if we signed him to a minor league deal, but guaranteeing this kinda slop 750K is nuts. But I'd have to agree with you on wins and ERA being way overrated...especially wins. Defense has a HUGE factor in a pitchers ERA. Im of the school that a pitcher has the most control over HR, BB, and Ks while hits is less under their control.

 

And thanks 03'!

His numbers look like those of a borderline #5 starter, which is what he is. I will give him a chance, he has to prove himself to Jack in order to get the job. He will be an improvement over Almanza.