CantCatchMe

Unfortunately, the "never played " or "couldn't make the high school team" crowd seems to predominate here. Therefore, you have all the "give Beinfest and the FO all the credit" comments. In fact, a manager can have a huge impact on a team, as Girardi clearly has, for the better, here. Of course talent matters, and the FO, scouts, and the GM deserve some credit. But studies have shown that few FOs outperform the average in drafting and trading for players. Beinfest is no exception; any other GM in baseball would have made similar moves and maybe, through luck, better ones. All you are seeing now in the talent depatment is luck; no one knew the team would do this well, including Beinfest. And no one knows if they will continue to do well into September. Or if they are having career years and will crash and burn soon, or next year. As it is, with the career years, they are long shots for the playoffs. So much for the FO contributuion. But once the talent is hired, someone has to motivate, educate and inspire them. This is what Girardi has been doing superbly. Someone also has to make the right lineup, try to engineer the right matchups, set the pitching rotation, etc. If that had been done poorly, the success you see on the field may not have materialized. But again, Girardi has performed superbly. Probably the least impoprtant part of what he does is "in game management," i.e., deciding when to steal, hit and run, bunt, pitch out, intentionally walk, pinch hit, bring in a reliever, etc. That's because there just aren't that many choices in most situations. Joe has made a few calls I disagreed with, but they all were arguable, and were argued passionately on this Board. He is a leading manager of the year candidate for a reason, it's just that some people on this Board don't really understand the game well enough to see his impact. But those who do know appreciate his skills, and agree he is one of the top young managerial prospects in baseball. If we lose him, teams will be lining up to hire him.

This year's pitch counts don't help, but what McKeon and the FO did to this kid at a younger age (and all the studies show you can handle more pitches per game as you get older, but need a low pitch count when young) was what ruined him. The total work load, and the number of pitches (several games over 120) at 21, 22, and 23 make future arm problems very likely. It's a sad aspect of the competitive pressures of the game. The problem is that if the team doesn't win, the guys deciding how many pitches he should throw (which include the FO) suffer the consequences. They don't want him to get injured or lose effectiveness, at least not anytime soon, but as you can see from the table set out in WMM2003's post, most teams aren't above letting a starter keep pitching until over 120 pitches. It's all about winning now.

WildMarlinMan2003, take your ethnocentric "and he's Latin" BS and shove it. That should have nothing to do with it. Can you imagine if we were getting Leyland back and a supporter added "and he's Anglo, so he can relate better to most of our players" or a new owner and someone said "and he's Jewish." It's absurd, and a sign of low self esteem on your part. Disgusting! By the way, by last name, only 7 of 25 guys on the active roster are "Latin" and all of them have proved they can play for non-Latin managers. Nolasco was born in CA and sounds like it when he speaks. Sounds like we ned to AVOID a Latin manager because he might clash with the Gringos! Also, isn't Girardi of Italian descent? They were the original Latins. Whatever you say man....when we were looking for a new manager, even the Miami Herald added that being of Latino decent would be a plus for a manager in Miami. Orlando Magic got Carlos Arroyo and ALL of the Puerto Ricans go to the games with PR flags everywhere. From a marketing standpoint, being Latino helps in a city like Miami..... Whatever you say, but you are acting like a bigot even if you haven't realized it. By your logic, Fredy had better not apply for a job in a majority Anglo community, even though he is qualified, because "being of [Anglo] descent would be a plus for a manager in [most MLB cities]," and because "from a marketing standpoint, being [Anglo] helps in a city like [most MLB cities]." Sometimes, I think that ethnic bigots MAY realize the folly of their ways if they imagine the shoe on the other foot. Thankfully, the fans in most MLB cities aren't as bigoted as you think Miami Latinos are, otherwise all the Latino and Black managers elsewhere would have been victimized by your counterparts in other ethnic groups and never given a shot. By the way, despite all the marketing geared toward the Latino community, I don't think our attendance has been or can be impacted by the ethnicity of players or managers. Not many Latinos are going out to see Nolasco, Cabrera, Amezaga, etc., are they? I think Fredy is one of the best managerial candidates around, he would be if his last name were Smith, and I think he should have a shot in any MLB community. But you can't ask for "being Latin" to be considered a plus here in Miami unless you agree it shuold be a minus just about everywhere else, which would be wrong. Let's leave his ethnic background, and that of any other candidate, out of it.

WildMarlinMan2003, take your ethnocentric "and he's Latin" BS and shove it. That should have nothing to do with it. Can you imagine if we were getting Leyland back and a supporter added "and he's Anglo, so he can relate better to most of our players" or a new owner and someone said "and he's Jewish." It's absurd, and a sign of low self esteem on your part. Disgusting! By the way, by last name, only 7 of 25 guys on the active roster are "Latin" and all of them have proved they can play for non-Latin managers. Nolasco was born in CA and sounds like it when he speaks. Sounds like we ned to AVOID a Latin manager because he might clash with the Gringos! Also, isn't Girardi of Italian descent? They were the original Latins.

This thread is ridiculous. I don't know Cisneros, but if he reads this thread he'll run away from this deal as fast as he can. What the heck does it mean to say Loria doesn't have enough money to own the team??? The house analogy is absurd; your house isn't a business. Look at it as if you bought the neighborhood coffee shop instead. If you could pay the price to buy the shop, by defintion, you have enough money to be an owner. If the business can't make enough money to pay its bills, the problem isn't your pocketbook, the problem is with the business. You will either have to cut costs (use cheaper coffee, hire fewer servers, etc.) or find a way to increase revenues (more advertising, raise prices, etc.) Bringing in someone richer doesn't do anything for you, unless he is dumb enough to want to lose money every year and make it up out of his own pocket. Microeconomics 101 folks. So this whole discussion is futile unless a) Cisneros wants to lose money owning a baseball team just to keep us diehard fans happy, or b) Cisneros has some magic formula for increasing the revenues. IMO, it's all a pipe dream, and we willl lose the Marlins to another city, where revenus will be higher.

Not showing up just makes it easier to move. If you don't show up, Loria and Samson win. We, the Fans, lose either way. I will go less often (but I already paid so I wil go some, as I love the game), but I would never pay the rate they tricked us into paying to see this pitiful excuse for a major league team.

Interesting article about MLB and Loria: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentSe...93064&t=TS_Home

They told us at the beginning of the 2005 season this renewal policy was in place. Well, kind of. Looking back, I couldn't find it in the renewal book for the '05 season, but it does appear about midway through in the tiniest of tiny print at the bottom. Definitely not "putting it out there" from the get go. And if it was, I sure as hell missed it. I know, I know. I'm just saying for all intents, you're both right. We were mislead initially, but the information was there if you wanted to hunt for it. Kind of sad that you have to deal with the Marlins like you would a traveling salesman or used car dealer. You guys are missing my point. There's nothing unethical about requiring us to renew in order to get playoff priority. What is definitely ilegal is to know you're plannin a fire sale and not tell your season ticket holders before they renew. I'm sure the renewal book didn't say a fire sale like this was being contemplated! I know some people were told that this was all decided recently, but that's hard to believe.

Isn't this exactly what Loria and Samson did in Montreal? http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0715/1406068.html When the Marlins made the unprecedented move of making us renew our season tickets to get 2005 playoff priority, did they know this was coming? Anyone here have any contacts in the Marlins Organization who can confirm? If so, we should demand refunds! You forgot that they lost, not once, but twice. And it wasn't unprecedented. They told us at the beginning of the 2005 season this renewal policy was in place. And even TSwift, who is as pissed off as anyone here admits he was told that the Marlins only learned weeks ago that the stadium deal was going south and that both the team and MLB expected it to happen. If you want to be angry, be angry, but for the right reasons. not true Well, kind of. Looking back, I couldn't find it in the renewal book for the '05 season, but it does appear about midway through in the tiniest of tiny print at the bottom. Definitely not "putting it out there" from the get go. And if it was, I sure as hell missed it. I can't find my renewal book. Can you repeat what it said?

Isn't this exactly what Loria and Samson did in Montreal? http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/0715/1406068.html When the Marlins made the unprecedented move of making us renew our season tickets to get 2005 playoff priority, did they know this was coming? Anyone here have any contacts in the Marlins Organization who can confirm? If so, we should demand refunds!

i'd rather the team move than another firesale, we've been through way to much as fans. agreed, at least if they move they can be competitive.. whereas if they stay, with no stadium or new lease, the marlins will keep losing money and fielding bad teams. Where do we go from here, even if this particular trade never happens? Without a stadium, being competitive will be difficult, UNLESS Loria doesn't mind losing alot of $$$$$$$$$$$ Loria's history in regard to delaing with a low budget team that is struggling to maintain its fan base and competitiveness (Montreal) is not encouraging Don't believe a word Selig says about the Marlins moving or not; if the $dollars$ say move, then move they will We all should have seen this coming when the Marlins required everyone to renew with a credit card or lose our playoff ticket priority. There was no reason to do that unless they knew a salary dump was in the offing.

So do the negative completely outweight the positive? More than likely. But is there room for hope? There damn well is. I'm afraid you are wrong.You could look at any smal portion of any player's at bats and find good or basd streaks. But that's not MLB. A 162 game regular season is, and Lowell has been lousy for 1 and 1/2 of those. The problem with Lowell isn't just the battting average, it's the lack of power. For you to refer to his "best" month, with only 2 HR, as a reason to have proves my point. For some reason, when Mikey hits the ball, it just doesn't go as far as it used to. And the problem has persisted for a year and a half. Face it, he's done. That means we have to look for a foolish GM who will take Lowell, and most of his salary, in the "hope" that he will return to form. Fortunately for the Marlins, there have always been plenty of GMs who were foolish enough to be hopeful instead of realistic.

I understand Girardi's demand. It is a recipe for disaster, in any business, for employees to think they can refuse to follow the plans of their immediate boss because they have "an in" with one of the top executives. A baseball coaching staff has to work together smoothly, and it is best if the coaches instinctively know the manager's style, and personally support, and are loyal to, the manager. While Perry Hill or Wiley may be great coaches, they are not the only great coaches in MLB, and it is important for the working relationships that Girardi get to pick his own coaches.

As has been clear all along, Girardi is Loria's first choice. He will get an offer. What remains to be seen is whether he will take it. IMO. Girardi is the best choice and I hope he will accept.

You shouldn't view managers by their won loss records. Look past that at how they handle a team, certain situations and how adaptive they are to the styles and situations we often play in. We're coming off three years with Jack McKeon, the last thing we need is Piniella because he has a name and track record. Look for the best guy for the current situation. This team is not the 90s Mariners and Reds. This is not the 03-05 Royals or the 1980s Mets. Their composition is unique from other clubs. How should I view them? What's the point of caring about "how they handle a team, certain situations and how adaptive they are to the styles and situations we often play in" unless it impacts won-loss records. Obviously, except for one lucky fluke year, Pena has been terrible at handling a team, adapting to styles, etc. He is a LOSER in 3 out of his 4 MLB managerial seasons. I agree with you about Piniella, though. I think Girardi is a good choice, and Fredi Gonzalez is a close second.

Are you kidding me? Are you related to Pena? He got lucky one year (what, do you think the players and pitchers played poorly and somehow he won anyway?) and you want to ruin our streak of 3 winning seasons in a row? His first season he was 49 - 77; then the year after his lucky year, he went 58 - 104. So much for his managerial talents. Why you would wish this kind of incompetence on us, I cannot fathom. Here is the article about his "resignation" early in the second year after his "fluke" good season: Blue Jays 3, Royals 1 TORONTO (AP) ? Tony Pe?a had seen enough. The Kansas City Royals manager resigned Tuesday night after watching the worst team in baseball lose again Toronto?s Roy Halladay pitched his AL-leading third complete game of the season and the Blue Jays beat the Royals 3-1 in a game that took just 1 hour, 44 minutes. Pe?a?s resignation came hours after the Royals fell to a major league-worst 8-25.

As has been clear all along, Girardi is Loria's first choice. He will get an offer. What remains to be seen is whether he will take it.

CantCatchMe, You do realize that all those players that you compared Pierre to are sluggers, with the exception of Taveras, who Pierre has both a higher OBP, and SLG% (Pierre: .326, .354 to Taveras: .325, .341) according to the numbers you list, and this is with Taveras a right handed hitter in Houston's little-league field...not to mention, Pierre's stolen base numbers dwarf Taveras'. So next time you put Taveras on a pedistal, and call Pierre "terrible," at least check your facts. And I'm calling BS on your numbers for Anaheim, Steve Finley's OBP was not .352, it was .271 and he slugged .374, not .397, and he stole 8 bases, not 62...plus he hit .222. And since you took it upon yourself to say that Roberts is much better than Pierre, he slugged .428, not .458, and this is with him having a year that's substantially above his career averages, and I recal you using the word "fluke" when describing Pierre, and this is with him having a career average of .305 with this below average year factored in there. I mean, if hitting .320 when your career average is above .300, what's slugging .428 when you're slugging percentage is .364? Expected? How many incorrect things can be in one post? You might have broken a record. What do you mean "they are sluggers." The point is they are good or great defensive centerfielders who make a solid contribution on offense, unlike JP. WTF is your point? Or don't you realize you just proved mine? As to Taveras, the kid's a rookie, not a player in his prime. Personally, I don't like his game so much, and he is Houston's Pierre, the reason they are the worst hitting team in the post season. So, again, you have proved my point. As to Finley, I was considering Figgins as the CF, based upon this item from their local paper: "The patience with Steve Finley has run out. The struggling outfielder was replaced by Chone Figgins in center field Tuesday in a move that likely will remain in place for the final month of the season. Finley was batting .215 with just nine home runs and 48 RBIs. "We have to get production," Scioscia said. "That's basically it. " Since Finley, a guy who has had trouble holding on to his position even after a stellar career has ALMOST IDENTICAL OBP + SLG to Pierre and was benched for "lack of production" you have again proved the point. Pierre's level of production is insufficient to justify a starting position in MLB. Sorry about the typo on Roberts but it doesn't affect the point. I agree he's a journeyman performing above his lifetime averages, but we're not talking about trading for him so whether his numbers this year were "expected" is irrelevant. We're talking about what it takes to justify a starting position as an MLB CF. Roberts has an OBP + SLG 100 points higher than JP! That is what it takes, that is what we need, and that's something JP will NEVER deliver. He had 2 "fluke" years, and now has reverted to what he was in Colorado. For you to defend him as a player we would want on our team, at his salary ($3.7 million this year) shows an abyssmal ignorance of the game. Pierre's production can be replaced at a much cheaper price. Pierre isn't "terrible," but he is average or below average and is grossly overpaid for his production.

Pierre's final stats: OBP.326, SLG. 354. That's PITIFUL. According to Baseball Prospectus, his fielding is just average. Apparently, his routes or jumps are terrible, so despite his speed his range isn't anything special and the weak arm allows opponents to take the extra base. Certainly he's no Jones or Edmonds. Stolen bases, as sabermetrics has proved, are overrated. His stolen base rate was OK (77%) but his efforts resulted in 17 additional outs, often killing ralies early in the season. By way of comparison, the NL playoff teams' starting CF's numbers are: 1) Atlanta: OBP .347, SLG .575 with gold glove defense 2) Cardinals: OBP .385, SLG .533 with gold glove defense; 3) Astros: OBP .325, SLG .341 with 34 stolen bases and 1st rate defense 4) Padres: OBP .356, SLG .458 The only offensive comparable is Taveras in Houston, who is a rookie and a great defensive player. Pierre is horrible offensively even compared to a journeyman like Roberts. The AL looks like this: 1) Yankees: OBP .321, SLG .367 2) White Sox: OBP .329, SLG .407 3) Angels: OBP .352, SLG .397 62 sb 4) Red Sox: OBP .366 SLF .439 18 sb, 1 cs The only comparable on offense is Bernie Williams, who is fading fast. It's sad when the best we can say for our CF is that he is average defensively, and comparable offensively only to rookies or fading veterans. And JP is in his supposed prime. No good GM would keep him as a leadoff hitter, and we can't afford him elsewhere since we don't have the other hitters to take up the slack. So, OK, he's not THE WORST, but he's at the bottom of the pack. The last 2 years he was above average, but it apears that was a fluke, as batting average spikes often are. The bottom line is that, for us, he is an impediment to success, as we have a better leadoff hitter, and we need more pop in the rest of the lineup.

industriales campeon wrote: IDK how people think anyone is going to take Lowell and Pierre. I still believe in giving Lowell a shot at redeeming himself. If he stinks again we can trade him way before the deadline and that's it. But Pierre? You gotta be crazy if you trade him, that is just preposterous What?? How are you gonna trade Lowell after a bad half season in 2006 if you say nobody will take him now? Your comment makes no sense. Pierre is probably the worst starting CF in MLB, and you want to keep him? Do you have any facts to back up your opininon, or is it just fun to ask Loria to waste his money on an unproductive player because you "like" him? Just like your wanting to give Lowell (probably the worst starting 3B in MLB)"a shot?" Industrialescampeon, you are definitely NOT a candidate for GM.

I cannot believe PositiveHype is claiming he can't reveal his name and school. That's ridiculous, of course he can, he just doesn't want to. Or he's making it up. I checked with Miami-Dade Schools, and they said there's no such prohibition. Telling people on a message board who you are doesn't violate any rule or contract. PH, you had every right to conceal your identity, so long as you didn't try to use your position as a HS coach as an "appeal to authority" in debates on this Board. Now that you have tried to get us to accept your arguments based on your being a High School coach, you should either tell us your school, or quit mentioning your position in support of your arguments. One or the other, your choice.

This is all easy to understand. The Marlins DO have a good fan base, judging from the TV ratings, but that base doesn't attend enough games. Why? I think it's because: 1) The threat of rain delays; 2) The fact that DS is one of the worst baseball parks inMLB; 3) The current location is lousy; it's a trek for almost everyone; But things will only get worse if the Orange Bowl location is chosen. 1)The fan base outside Miami-Dade will never attend, given the traffic and other concerns. 2)The Miami-Dade portion of the fan base is probably only about half of the fans,. 3)Once the newness factor wears off, attendance would be dismal; a losing Heat team had trouble drawing fans in their beautiful new government-subsidized arena in the pre-Shaq era. The Orange Bowl location is too inconvenient to draw the "after work" crowd that goes to Downtown stadiums, and we don't have the corporate base to sell, and fill with clients and prospects, the luxury suites in the new park. So, unfortunately, it looks like the writer has a good point; the failure of local government to help the Marlins come up with a Downtown location, or to propose any feasible alternative, puts the future of baseball in South Florida in jeopardy. I don't think we'll lose the Marlins anytime soon, but I think Loria will stop throwing away money, and the team will slowlly become worse, like the Expos did under Loria when Montreal wouldn't fund a new park and attendance kept falling.

We should keep: Delgado Castillo Gonzo Cabrera Conine Hermida LoDuca and pick up a slugging LF and a better CF (we can always use Luis at leadoff). Keep Conine as a bench player or PH. Pick up a backup IF or resign Easley if he's healthy and affordable.(Andino can't do this as that guy will PH alot and Andino isn't ready to hit MLB pitching). Put Hermida in right. The other positions are obvious. Most of whatever money we have to spend should be put into getting a good LF still in, or just getting to, his prime, and a better option in CF. On the bench or waiting in the high minors we'd have Dillon (talking Lenny's role) Willingham (trying to find a position) Conine (who can start and do well for long stretches if needed) Stokes (MLB ready?) I think Hermida's the one youngster, going into srping, I'd pencil in. I know he hasn't shown much in the few appearances he's had since his call up, except that first ab grand slam, but his arm and speed mean he could play CF or RF. And he's shown quite a bat in the minors (.983 OBP + SLG this year). For the rotation Willis Beckett Mohler/Valdez or equivalent Johnson Olsen Vargas Pick up two quality potential 2-5 starters and let all 8 or 9 of them fight it out for spots 3-5 and long relief. Just get a reasonaby priced new guy or two with good perpipherals (K/BB ratio, K rate, etc.). Pitching is the least consistent skill, so guys with an upside can be pleasant surprises. The top proven winners will be too expensive for us, and I'm not a big fan of bringing in overpriced fading stars like we did with Leiter. Get rid of: Lowell - not an MLB regular anymore, and WAY overpriced even if he makes a modest comeback (which he probably will since if he stays this bad he won't play at al) Pierre - unless the coaches can see why his OBP has fallen so dramatically and think they can fix it.. Without high OBP, this weak armed no pop OF is a reach even as a 4th OF. The Bullpen - except Jones. This is where we need to spend the rest of our money (after adding OF bats) and bring in a lot of guys with upside for a look in spring training. Treanor - LoDuca needs more rest and Treanor is not an adequate guy if we need to use him for 30-40 games behind the plate between off days for Paulie and injuries. Not sure if WIllingham can catch that much because of his poor skills behind the plate. Not sure about: Encarnacion - He is not a good offensive RF. If we keep him it needs to be for CF (where he'd be adequate defensively and one of the better ones on offense., and we can look for RF alternatives or just stick with Hermida if the staff thinks he's ready.

Loria will pick Girardi, and he's the best choice, having learned from Joe tOrre. Why on earth would you want one of those retreads, who never could manage in the first place. Grady Little? 55 years old, managed the most talented team in baseball and couldn't get out of second place. Intimidated by players into bad decisions. And you'd want him? Fredi Gonzalez? an acceptable candidate, but minor league managing and coaching 3b with Atlanta, while good,is not as good preparation as Girardi has had with NY. Tony Pena? Are you kidding me? A .422 record in 3 years of managing? Just what criteria are you using? Davey Johnson? talk about the game passing someone by. Han't managed in 5 years, and was last successful in the mid-80s. And 62 years old to boot. Anyway, what we think doesn't matter. Girardi is Loria's first choice.

Our entire 4 game deficit in the wildcard, and even our 6 game deficit in the division, can be attributed to Lowell and JP. If they play up their norms for the last 2 years we have at least 6 more wins. That said, it's the manager's fault that Lowell and JP were allowed to play us into third place in a division we should have won. Lowell fell apart LAST YEAR, so there is no way McKeon should have let him stay on the filed so long. JP, after 2 good years, is reverting to his Colorado form. You "small ball" guys may like stolen bases, but they don't win games if your OBP is lousy. JP clearly didn't deserve to be leading off, and Jack and the GM are at fault for failing to find a repalcement. What we need now is someone young and energetic enough to light a fire under the team next year, experienced enough to manage well, and respected enough to get our GM to get him what he needs to win. McKeon needs to go, or it will be more of the same next year. Why do you think he lost the clubhouse? The other players knew Mikey was hurting the team, yet Jack stuck with him, they knew JP's lousy OBP, but Jack led him off, they knew Jack made all the wrong bullpen moves, and Jack's buddy Cox is no better than a blind man coaching third base. Players hate it when the manger or FO do things that take away their best chance to win.