That's pretty illogical. So you refuse to voice any criticism against Loria just because mostly everybody here does it? You realize how immature that sounds, right?

 

The way I see it as he said it, is that it's more, "whatever I could say has already been said many times and doesn't need repeating from another person," which I can agree with and respect.

Not siding with Loria in any way. Just how I see it.

Getting Giancarlo signed would go a long way towards starting (starting, I say) to mend the relationship between the fanbase and ownership.

(are you listening, Mr Loria?)

And yet your buddy Loria will not consider offering Stanton an extension this offseason.

 

I don't even know the guy, what makes you think he's my "buddy"?

 

As for an extension, he might be well-advised to wait for a year of Stanton's playing with his new teammates, it might turn out that he enjoys it and can see a future with this team.

I think he'll see a future with whoever pays him. Seriously this argument? Loria's almost certainly costing himself money by not doing it now. It defies logic.

And yet your buddy Loria will not consider offering Stanton an extension this offseason.

 

I don't even know the guy, what makes you think he's my "buddy"?

 

As for an extension, he might be well-advised to wait for a year of Stanton's playing with his new teammates, it might turn out that he enjoys it and can see a future with this team.

I think he'll see a future with whoever pays him. Seriously this argument? Loria's almost certainly costing himself money by not doing it now. It defies logic.

 

It doesn't defy logic, it just frustrates us. Not all decisions are determined by what is best for the long term. Sometimes short term goals are given precedence. We all do it. Loria's short term thinking is that he's not giving any big contracts now, presumably based on his assertion that they can't afford it. I'm sure he knows that it could cost him in the long run, but right now that's not his priority. It isn't illogical. It's merely a matter of priorities.

We all put off some big expense because we'll be better able to afford it later, even if the cost will be higher then. Sometimes it works out well, sometimes it doesn't. But there is nothing mysterious about that kind of decision-making.

That's pretty illogical. So you refuse to voice any criticism against Loria just because mostly everybody here does it? You realize how immature that sounds, right?

 

The way I see it as he said it, is that it's more, "whatever I could say has already been said many times and doesn't need repeating from another person," which I can agree with and respect.

Not siding with Loria in any way. Just how I see it.I see it more as him refusing to say anything negative about the guy--almost like a blind apologist. That's why I'd like to know if he thinks that the Stanton/Cabrera situations have been handled well.

 

I think you are wrong mostly because "..." has never even hinted that he thinks that Loria has blundered in some baseball operations decisions.

And I stand by my defense of ellipses.

Well, if what he really wants is to keep you guessing, he has succeeded.

The "..." guy knows Loria has done many things wrong as a baseball owner. He isn't stupid. Hell, the last thread that he started was a basic admission that Loria f*cked up during the off season.

 

He just won't say it because his role on this board is to defend Loria at all costs.

Actually, I've said directly a number of times that the reason the team was blown up was the large loss and the prospect of years' more large losses -- and that Loria was absolutely right to admit that '12 was a large and expensive mistake and failure and immediately try to fix the problem with drastic action.

 

For instance: "Boils down to this. If what you are doing isn't working, stop doing it. Admit that you were wrong. Reevaluate. Do something else, which will hopefully be better."

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/97776-johnson-buehrle-reyes-buck-bonifacio-to-toronto/

 

And: "Loria committed to 190 mill in FAs last year. It was an unmitigated disaster. What would you have him do? Tinker around the edges for losing season after losing season?

 

Loria's smart and knows how to admit failure and when to cut his losses. What they tried last year failed miserably, so he blew it up rather than tinker and make excuses for years. Simple as that. The start of it was dumping Hanley, then Bell, Guillan, this trade and perhaps Nolasco will be the end of it."

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/97776-johnson-buehrle-reyes-buck-bonifacio-to-toronto/

 

And: "A stubborn owner would dig in his heels and maintain the status quo. I'm right, dammit!

 

Loria decided he was wrong and cut his losses. Cost him 15 mill, but fortunately he now has the ability to do so without putting everyone through another year of the failed Ozzie, Bell and Hanley show."

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/97665-fire-loria/

 

And: "The only exception to the "burn it" ["it" being a Bell jersey] solution would be if you have season tickets for the seats directly in front of Loria's seats so that you would be able to be a constant reminder next year of the folly that was Heath Bell."

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/97656-bell-traded-to-arizona-in-3-team-deal/

 

Most of what I do here is point out facts. Not much I can do if the Loria-bashers don't like them. But, that's no reason to conclude that I defend Loria at all costs. For some real zingers, read what I had to say about Loria approving Ali on the "Who is throwing out the 1st pitch" thread.

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/96410-who-is-throwing-out-the-1st-pitch/

Actually, I've said directly a number of times that the reason the team was blown up was the large loss and the prospect of years' more large losses -- and that Loria was absolutely right to admit that '12 was a large and expensive mistake and failure and immediately try to fix the problem with drastic action.

 

For instance: "Boils down to this. If what you are doing isn't working, stop doing it. Admit that you were wrong. Reevaluate. Do something else, which will hopefully be better."

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/97776-johnson-buehrle-reyes-buck-bonifacio-to-toronto/

 

And: "Loria committed to 190 mill in FAs last year. It was an unmitigated disaster. What would you have him do? Tinker around the edges for losing season after losing season?

 

Loria's smart and knows how to admit failure and when to cut his losses. What they tried last year failed miserably, so he blew it up rather than tinker and make excuses for years. Simple as that. The start of it was dumping Hanley, then Bell, Guillan, this trade and perhaps Nolasco will be the end of it."

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/97776-johnson-buehrle-reyes-buck-bonifacio-to-toronto/

 

And: "A stubborn owner would dig in his heels and maintain the status quo. I'm right, dammit!

 

Loria decided he was wrong and cut his losses. Cost him 15 mill, but fortunately he now has the ability to do so without putting everyone through another year of the failed Ozzie, Bell and Hanley show."

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/97665-fire-loria/

 

And: "The only exception to the "burn it" ["it" being a Bell jersey] solution would be if you have season tickets for the seats directly in front of Loria's seats so that you would be able to be a constant reminder next year of the folly that was Heath Bell."

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/97656-bell-traded-to-arizona-in-3-team-deal/

 

Most of what I do here is point out facts. Not much I can do if the Loria-bashers don't like them. But, that's no reason to conclude that I defend Loria at all costs. For some real zingers, read what I had to say about Loria approving Ali on the "Who is throwing out the 1st pitch" thread.

http://forums.marlinsbaseball.com/topic/96410-who-is-throwing-out-the-1st-pitch/

 

Gotta admit, that exchange on Ali says a lot.

Does Jeffrey Loria & co. exhibit competency in the way they've managed the contracts of Stanton and Cabrera? Do you feel that Jeffrey Loria's involvement with baseball operations has had a positive impact on the team's competitiveness?

 

What you posted above reads more as being defensive than critical.

What you posted above reads more as being defensive than critical.

 

You don't have to take drastic action to correct major mistakes (as in "unmitigated disaster," "failed miserably," "the failed Ozzie, Bell and Hanley show" and "folly" ) if you haven't made any. Some here have managed to read between those obvious lines.

 

I don't look to trash Loria or the FO (there are plenty of people doing that) by detailing what I think their transgressions may have been, I look at what they're doing to fix it. If explaining how hard, cold financial reality affects or even dictates what they're doing amounts to being "defensive" to anyone, well, there's nothing I can do about that.

 

There's nothing worth rehashing about Cabrera -- they couldn't afford him without a stadium and got what they could. Those guys didn't work out. So it sometimes goes. Maybe they could have gotten a better batch of guys from someone else. Who knows? Hindsight is always 20-20.

 

As for Stanton, we have him for at least 3 1/2 years (the '16 trade deadline.) One can argue about whether he should be made an offer now or it should wait a bit. I don't have a problem with letting things settle down and waiting until after this year.

 

Then again, they may already have been told in no uncertain terms that Stanton will not sign right now no matter what and he'll take his chances with potential injuries. Not very likely, but that would leave no alternative but to wait. We just don't know -- certainly nobody here does.

It's very clear to me that you are choosing your words very carefully (like a politician) and still refuse to admit any wrong-doing on Loria's part. You are also giving me politican-like answers to my questions.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that while you talk about "failure" you are actually being very cryptic in terms of agency. In other words, you seem to be very deliberately not assigning blame toward Loria for playing a major part in that failure through his poor decision making. That comes across as very apologetic to me.

 

As for Cabrera, I'm not talking about the trade return. I'm talking about the team's refusal to buy out Cabrera's arbitration during his club controlled years when he would have been affordable. If they had attempted to do so, they could have easily kept him with the team beyond 2007.

 

And it absolutely is worth rehashing this. Cabrera is a future hall of famer and through total lack of vision (arguably incompetence) with how the Marlins manage their arbitration buyouts, his tenure with the Marlins was radically cut short. More importantly, the Marlins seem to be on the path to making the very same mistake with Stanton.

 

As I've said before, you seem to be placing more blame on Stanton (you are doing it again in the above post) for not signing an extension this offseason than Loria. I find this pretty silly. Loria has flat out said that he won't consider making an offer this offseason. Do you actually think that Stanton and his agent would not entertain a market-rate offer at this point in his career? What do the Marlins have to gain by not even making an offer or beginning negotiations?

I find this pretty silly.

 

So do I.

These are legitimate questions. I'm also trying to help you perfect your game when you run for political office. If you are going to dodge questions, you need to make it less obvious.

 

In your mind has Jeffrey Loria ever made a mistake or exhibited lack of good judgment with respect to baseball operations decisions? Do you think that the team would have fared better if Loria had stayed out of baseball decisions?

This is the way I look at it if we are talking purely on baseball decisions and who's actually making the baseball decisions.

 

If you are the fan that says that "something need to change" and "it isnt working" and put the blame on baseball decisions, I would strongly argue that the front office should have been replaced. Approaching 10 seasons with no playoffs and Limited draft success. Many Big wigs would have been gone in other organizations. If Loria let his baseball people make the decisions last year, FO people should have been replaced. Thats on Loria. Personally this is what got me. I could stomach some more of it if they had made some changes all over the organization, but just changing coaching staff and players over and over again is redundant and has been producing the same result for years.

 

On the other hand, you will get some people who say that Loria made the baseball decisions and its obvious who they are blaming there.

 

There may not be a crystal clear line about if it's right to bash Loria about financials but I would say that anybody that wants to argue on baseball decisions has a pretty good argument.

These are legitimate questions.

 

Loria is who he is and he's not going anywhere.

 

Look forward, not back.

So it's pretty clear now that you refuse to ever say anything negative about Loria no matter how badly he screws up. I hope that you can recognize the absurdity in your decision to be nothing more than a blind apologist.

 

It is rather difficult to look forward to the future if one does not diagnose the problem that caused the "unmitigated disaster" that was the 2012 season. Looking forward entails finding out who was responsible for making the bad baseball decisions (something that you refuse to acknowledge) and correcting them. As Canescop says, nothing has changed at all in terms of the FO. Whether you like to acknowledge it or not, this "unmitigated disaster" was caused by a collective incompetency shared by Loria, Beinfest, and Hill. We cannot look forward until we analyze the wreckage of the disaster and rebuild with new personnel who can actually build a competitive franchise again.

No, it's not "pretty clear."

 

"We cannot look forward until we analyze the wreckage [blah, blah, blah]" is a meaningless statement, you're not in charge of anything and neither am I.

 

No matter how much you want to distort what I've said, Loria. like him or not, isn't going anywhere.

Are you willing to acknowledge any incompetency or poor decision making on Loria's part in terms of baseball operations? I've been asking you to do so repeatedly and you keep dodging the question. That makes it pretty clear that you are simply being a blind apologist.

 

What do I need to be in charge of in order to feel dissatisfied with how the Marlins addressed the 2012 season disaster? You are telling me to "look forward" but how can I do so unless I can see that the problems problems from the past are solved? As a Marlins fan where I am supposed to find assurance that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated? How am I supposed to interpret Loria's refusal to even consider offering Stanton a contract extension this season--especially since he already made that mistake in the past with Miguel Cabrera?

 

Refusal to assign blame for the "unmitigated disaster" (as you are doing) is simply putting one's head in the sand.

Answer me this: Even if Loria is here for the foreseeable future (ie "not going anywhere"), why would that fact preclude us from exposing his indiscretions?

 

You've made this assertion twice now in this thread and I fail to see how you are making any logical sense in doing so.

You're beyond tiresome.

 

My points about the Marlins' finances and why Loria does what he does have been made on many threads and anyone reading them can take them as they wish.

 

I'm looking forward to the 1st spring training game on TV in about an hour.

This exchange only seems "tiresome" because you are refusing to answer even the most simple questions that I've been repeatedly asking you. You come of as being both foolish and stubborn for entirely ignoring them.

 

The Marlins' finances are a completely separate issue from what I've been attempting to discuss with you. I believe that I made this qualification many posts ago. Note that I am not accusing Loria of pocketing revenue sharing funds or bilking taxpayers in any of my posts.

Anyone can second-guess any management decision. I really don't care what anyone who isn't part of Marlins management thinks about their decisions one way or the other, because it simply doesn't matter.

 

Meanwhile, I'm watching the game.