Let me just say, despite recent rumblings of a trade for Giancarlo, I don't see it happening. That would take Miami fans from hurt to full on revolt.

If they raided the Rays farm system I would be more okay with it.

 

But at this point its not a matter of if but when they are going to trade him...just like everyone else who is about to make serious money on this team.

He would look stupid wearing a powder blue compression sleeve.

Tampa Bay.. Hmm.. Matt Moore, Myers, what else..

Marlins don't need Stanton to get Myers. Ricky Nolasco sounds about right.

Stanton was ranked the #1 right fielder on MLB Network's Top 10 Right Now series. The Shredder and Eric Byrnes both had him at 1, Bill James at 6 cause he strikes out a lot (he had Heyward at 1 and Ben Zobrist at 2, so ...)

the MLB Network is almost as compelling as ESPN, which is almost as compelling as anyone who actually gives a shit about the game

Granted it was in 20 more games... Jason Heyward struck out more times than Mike Stanton did last season. Kind of an asinine thing to say, wouldn't you say?

Again, he had Ben Zobrist at 2. Idk what the thinking is there, considering he played around 50 games out there last season.

Also, I lost the little faith I had in WAR. According to that, over the last 4 years, Zobrist has been the best.player in the game. Not knocking him, he's good and versatile, but he's not #1 in the Majors. Lol

Did anyone else think James looked really uncomfortable on camera? Also James didn't really know what to make of Stanton it seemed. I think he just wants to see him play more. Though he had Heward at number 1 so Idk.

Stanton was ranked the #1 right fielder on MLB Network's Top 10 Right Now series. The Shredder and Eric Byrnes both had him at 1, Bill James at 6 cause he strikes out a lot (he had Heyward at 1 and Ben Zobrist at 2, so ...)

James also said that Stanton doesn't have a good OBP. :banghead

Stanton was ranked the #1 right fielder on MLB Network's Top 10 Right Now series. The Shredder and Eric Byrnes both had him at 1, Bill James at 6 cause he strikes out a lot (he had Heyward at 1 and Ben Zobrist at 2, so ...)

James also said that Stanton doesn't have a good OBP. :banghead

I didn't see it, but to be fair a .360-ish OBP isn't that spectacular for an elite power hitter when you see that guys like Cabrera have been capable of routinely achieving .400 in their prime.

And Stanton isn't close to his prime.

Stanton was ranked the #1 right fielder on MLB Network's Top 10 Right Now series. The Shredder and Eric Byrnes both had him at 1, Bill James at 6 cause he strikes out a lot (he had Heyward at 1 and Ben Zobrist at 2, so ...)

James also said that Stanton doesn't have a good OBP. :banghead

I didn't see it, but to be fair a .360-ish OBP isn't that spectacular for an elite power hitter when you see that guys like Cabrera have been capable of routinely achieving .400 in their prime.

 

 

Does that matter?

That's only one stat, and he's still well above average in the category. What about the fact that he's the best pure power hitter in the game?

Stanton was ranked the #1 right fielder on MLB Network's Top 10 Right Now series. The Shredder and Eric Byrnes both had him at 1, Bill James at 6 cause he strikes out a lot (he had Heyward at 1 and Ben Zobrist at 2, so ...)

James also said that Stanton doesn't have a good OBP. :banghead

I didn't see it, but to be fair a .360-ish OBP isn't that spectacular for an elite power hitter when you see that guys like Cabrera have been capable of routinely achieving .400 in their prime.

 

 

Does that matter?

That's only one stat, and he's still well above average in the category. What about the fact that he's the best pure power hitter in the game?

 

You are taking what I said way out of context. I'm saying that James is right in suggesting that Stanton's OBP is low for the type of player he is even if the figure is still above league average. If Stanton peaks in the .360 OBP range, that is a weakness in his hitting even if he's one of the best pure power hitters in the game.

 

It does matter. We'd like to think that he'd mature into a perennial 1.000+ OPS player. It's going to be difficult for him to achieve that unless that OBP goes up a little. I don't think his SLG will be enough to regularly compensate for that.

 

On top of that, many have argued that OBP is the more essential element of OPS for run creation than SLG is. In fact, OBP should be weighted something like twice as much as SLG is.

An .OBP in the .360 range is not a weakness in anyone's hitting.

If anyone could put up a 1.000 .OPS with a .360 .OBP, it's him.

That's a really lazy counter-argument.

 

If you rightfully recognize that OBP is more important than SLG, then it's surely a weakness.

 

OPS is used because it's simple, but something like GPA (gross production average) is far more accurate because it doesn't give equal weight to OBP and SLG.

 

Compare Stanton to Buster Posey in 2012:

 

Player: OBP/SLG/OPS/GPA

Stanton: .361/.608/.969/.314

Posey: .408/.549/.957/.321

 

Because of Stanton's lower OBP, Posey likely created more runs offensively despite having the lower OPS and SLG.

Nelson Cruz, was mentioned in a new PED scandal. Much like BALCO only residing here in miami. MLB can suspend him if allegations check out; positive test not needed to suspend. I'm only writing this because of the long standing Texas-Giancarlo rumor. If Cruz is suspended (50 games) what will that do with the Giancarlo situation.

Probably nothing, to be honest. If he gets suspended now, it's the first 50 games, and he'll be back in June at the latest. If this was in early or mid July, then maybe they'd unload the farm.

That's a really lazy counter-argument.

 

If you rightfully recognize that OBP is more important than SLG, then it's surely a weakness.

 

OPS is used because it's simple, but something like GPA (gross production average) is far more accurate because it doesn't give equal weight to OBP and SLG.

 

Compare Stanton to Buster Posey in 2012:

 

Player: OBP/SLG/OPS/GPA

Stanton: .361/.608/.969/.314

Posey: .408/.549/.957/.321

 

Because of Stanton's lower OBP, Posey likely created more runs offensively despite having the lower OPS and SLG.

 

I really don't get what you're doing.

Speaking of taking things out of context...

 

Anyway, it's still not a weakness. There's a way to evaluate this, and yes, Posey was better last year and has been slightly better in his career. (wRC+, a stat created by Bill James himself)

 

That still doesn't mean that Stanton is not a top-tier player in baseball. It also doesn't mean that Ben Zobrist is a better RF'er because of his .OBP #'s. That's laughable. That's why I said the whole thing about it only being one stat, which Stanton isn't even weak at.

 

Saying Stanton's .OBP is a weakness is like saying pitchers are pitching around our other hitters to get to Stanton because he strikes out so much. If everyone on the team put up Stanton's "weak" .OBP #'s, we would have the best offense in baseball...

Saying that Stanton's OBP is "weak" is speaking in relative terms. I don't see why you can't comprehend that. .360 is well above league average but if you look at other power hitters in his class, it's a figure that one would like to see improved upon.

 

I mean, the average SLG is around .400 I think. When Stanton has a SLG of .537 in 2011 it's clearly above league average, but you want to see it go beyond .600 in order to join the ranks of the best power hitters in the game. Stanton has already done that, of course, but I can certainly see why Bill James would think that the OBP leaves something to be desired.

 

And I'm well aware of wRC+. I was using GPA as an example because it is a more direct modification of OPS. Stanton's position the OPS leader board drops a little when you give OBP more weight.

 

And where on earth do you see me making the claim that Stanton is not a top-tier player in baseball? Seriously, I'd like to see where you got that from because that seems like a total straw-man. I also don't recall saying that Ben Zobrist is a better RF, either.

 

That Ben Zobrist comment of yours is extremely idiotic actually. Zobrist's OBP was only slightly better than Stanton's last year (.371 vs. .361). Obviously the vast difference in SLG would compensate for the marginal difference in OBP. I'm not comparing Stanton to guys like Zobrist; I'm comparing him to guys like Cabrera, Braun, and Pujols.

The TX sluggers don't light it up with OBP - so you can definitely be a top level player, even if your OBP lags a bit compared to other elite sluggers

 

However, it would be nice to see him get some bump in this regard .... it would move him from the exciting young power hitter to simply one of top hitters in the game - he'd give a rounded and dangerous approach at the plate like miggy, braun, bautista on his tear, etc

 

Although if he's a clean and healthy Josh Hamilton at the plate for the bulk of his career it's definitely not hurting your lineup

Saying that Stanton's OBP is "weak" is speaking in relative terms. I don't see why you can't comprehend that. .360 is well above league average but if you look at other power hitters in his class, it's a figure that one would like to see improved upon.

 

I mean, the average SLG is around .400 I think. When Stanton has a SLG of .537 in 2011 it's clearly above league average, but you want to see it go beyond .600 in order to join the ranks of the best power hitters in the game. Stanton has already done that, of course, but I can certainly see why Bill James would think that the OBP leaves something to be desired.

 

And I'm well aware of wRC+. I was using GPA as an example because it is a more direct modification of OPS. Stanton's position the OPS leader board drops a little when you give OBP more weight.

 

And where on earth do you see me making the claim that Stanton is not a top-tier player in baseball? Seriously, I'd like to see where you got that from because that seems like a total straw-man. I also don't recall saying that Ben Zobrist is a better RF, either.

 

That Ben Zobrist comment of yours is extremely idiotic actually. Zobrist's OBP was only slightly better than Stanton's last year (.371 vs. .361). Obviously the vast difference in SLG would compensate for the marginal difference in OBP. I'm not comparing Stanton to guys like Zobrist; I'm comparing him to guys like Cabrera, Braun, and Pujols.

 

"Stanton was ranked the #1 right fielder on MLB Network's Top 10 Right Now series. The Shredder and Eric Byrnes both had him at 1, Bill James at 6 cause he strikes out a lot (he had Heyward at 1 and Ben Zobrist at 2, so ...)"

 

"James also said that Stanton doesn't have a good OBP. :banghead"

 

Your response: "I didn't see it, but to be fair a .360-ish OBP isn't that spectacular for an elite power hitter when you see that guys like Cabrera have been capable of routinely achieving .400 in their prime."

 

 

 

...I guess you're simply saying his .OBP does not compare with the elite power hitters (which isn't necessarily true, really), but ultimately, the one who took things out of context was you. I don't understand why you're so confused with the Ben Zobrist reference considering the context of the conversation. It all started when someone said that Bill James ranked Stanton 6th among RF's in baseball right now with Heyward and Zobrist 1st and 2nd, respectively.

 

Based on what was said in this thread, Bill James statements had nothing to do with comparisons to other elite hitters, anyway. Thus, in the context of the conversation, I'm still not sure what you're agreeing with because he said nothing along the lines of what you brought up.

 

Why you're comparing Stanton to "Cabrera, Braun, and Pujols," I do not know. Bill James certainly wasn't. It seems like Bill James was just saying that he thinks that Stanton is the 6th best RF'er in the game because...well, no valid reason really; it's just a pretty stupid statement.

 

 

And no offense, but I highly doubt you knew what wRC+ meant. In the hypothetical scenario that you did, it's pretty weird that you made up the whole "GPA" thing. But whatever.

I love getting into quoting, bolding, underlining, and italicizing wars with Erick. That's when you know shit is serious.

 

It's even better when there's not enough quote blocks to allow what you want to say so you HAVE to do it!

Saying that Stanton's OBP is "weak" is speaking in relative terms. I don't see why you can't comprehend that. .360 is well above league average but if you look at other power hitters in his class, it's a figure that one would like to see improved upon.

 

I mean, the average SLG is around .400 I think. When Stanton has a SLG of .537 in 2011 it's clearly above league average, but you want to see it go beyond .600 in order to join the ranks of the best power hitters in the game. Stanton has already done that, of course, but I can certainly see why Bill James would think that the OBP leaves something to be desired.

 

And I'm well aware of wRC+. I was using GPA as an example because it is a more direct modification of OPS. Stanton's position the OPS leader board drops a little when you give OBP more weight.

 

And where on earth do you see me making the claim that Stanton is not a top-tier player in baseball? Seriously, I'd like to see where you got that from because that seems like a total straw-man. I also don't recall saying that Ben Zobrist is a better RF, either.

 

That Ben Zobrist comment of yours is extremely idiotic actually. Zobrist's OBP was only slightly better than Stanton's last year (.371 vs. .361). Obviously the vast difference in SLG would compensate for the marginal difference in OBP. I'm not comparing Stanton to guys like Zobrist; I'm comparing him to guys like Cabrera, Braun, and Pujols.

 

"Stanton was ranked the #1 right fielder on MLB Network's Top 10 Right Now series. The Shredder and Eric Byrnes both had him at 1, Bill James at 6 cause he strikes out a lot (he had Heyward at 1 and Ben Zobrist at 2, so ...)"

 

"James also said that Stanton doesn't have a good OBP. :banghead"

 

Your response: "I didn't see it, but to be fair a .360-ish OBP isn't that spectacular for an elite power hitter when you see that guys like Cabrera have been capable of routinely achieving .400 in their prime."

 

 

 

...I guess you're simply saying his .OBP does not compare with the elite power hitters (which isn't necessarily true, really), but ultimately, the one who took things out of context was you. I don't understand why you're so confused with the Ben Zobrist reference considering the context of the conversation. It all started when someone said that Bill James ranked Stanton 6th among RF's in baseball right now with Heyward and Zobrist 1st and 2nd, respectively.

 

Based on what was said in this thread, Bill James statements had nothing to do with comparisons to other elite hitters, anyway. Thus, in the context of the conversation, I'm still not sure what you're agreeing with because he said nothing along the lines of what you brought up.

 

Why you're comparing Stanton to "Cabrera, Braun, and Pujols," I do not know. Bill James certainly wasn't. It seems like Bill James was just saying that he thinks that Stanton is the 6th best RF'er in the game because...well, no valid reason really; it's just a pretty stupid statement.

 

 

And no offense, but I highly doubt you knew what wRC+ meant. In the hypothetical scenario that you did, it's pretty weird that you made up the whole "GPA" thing. But whatever.

It would be helpful if you would be more consistent in specifying whose opinions you are trying to attack here. Bill James' or mine?

 

I never claimed that I agreed with James' rankings. I said that it is reasonable for him to mention the .360 OBP as a downside (that's why I responded to the post about OBP and never mentioned the rankings at all). So, there's a difference. And did James actually rank Zobrist ahead of Stanton because of the minimal difference in OBP (according to you he did)? I find that hard to believe, which is why I think you are just creating a straw man (like you often do). I mean, the ranking itself probably has something to do with how one interprets Stanton's injury history as well.

 

If you read what I wrote, I'm defending one of his critiques of Stanton. I don't endorse putting Zobrist or Heyward in front of him and have never said anything here that would indicate that. It is perfectly reasonable to agree with one of his critiques without feeling the need to rank Stanton sixth among RFers.

 

The GPA stat was mentioned because it is a cleaner, more intuitive derivation of the OPS that everyone knows. Now, wRC+ is the more accepted and more accurate stat in the end, but it also includes SBs and has more complicated conversion factors. I was hoping to illustrate how the simple ~2x OBP adjustment would affect Stanton's relative position with respect to another player in the OPS leaderboards. Nice try at mind reading, though.