Does this list seem surprising to anyone?

[flasportsfan88]

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0

 

Hanley's value with him at shortstop is a little bit more than Stephen Drew, because his defense is so poor.

 

Maybe we should start thinking about moving Hanley over to third, and having a real shortstop come in here. I know a lot of us are used to the fact that he's the best hitting shortstop in the game, and so valuable because of that, but he seams a little out of position. Hes a 230 pound shortstop. Also I know some like to keep third open for Dominguez; but he's nowhere near ready.

 

We all know from watching Uggla that he's not a terrible 2b, but hes not an average one. Having one below average middle infielder is one thing, but two? I feel next season some project Gaby batting 7th, I think we can sacrifice some offense for some D, especially up the middle.

[enterthemadness]

http://www.fangraphs...on=2010&month=0

 

Hanley's value with him at shortstop is a little bit more than Stephen Drew, because his defense is so poor.

 

Maybe we should start thinking about moving Hanley over to third, and having a real shortstop come in here. I know a lot of us are used to the fact that he's the best hitting shortstop in the game, and so valuable because of that, but he seams a little out of position. Hes a 230 pound shortstop. Also I know some like to keep third open for Dominguez; but he's nowhere near ready.

 

We all know from watching Uggla that he's not a terrible 2b, but hes not an average one. Having one below average middle infielder is one thing, but two? I feel next season some project Gaby batting 7th, I think we can sacrifice some offense for some D, especially up the middle.

 

 

 

But Hanley and Uggla are one of the best double play guys in the league.

[Entendu]

Maybe later in his career. I think we should wait and see how our players line up in 2012 before we change our star player's position

[enterthemadness]

Maybe later in his career. I think we should wait and see how our players line up in 2012 before we change our star player's position

 

 

Uggla and Stanton do not approve.

[Erick]

http://www.fangraphs...on=2010&month=0

 

Hanley's value with him at shortstop is a little bit more than Stephen Drew, because his defense is so poor.

 

Maybe we should start thinking about moving Hanley over to third, and having a real shortstop come in here. I know a lot of us are used to the fact that he's the best hitting shortstop in the game, and so valuable because of that, but he seams a little out of position. Hes a 230 pound shortstop. Also I know some like to keep third open for Dominguez; but he's nowhere near ready.

 

We all know from watching Uggla that he's not a terrible 2b, but hes not an average one. Having one below average middle infielder is one thing, but two? I feel next season some project Gaby batting 7th, I think we can sacrifice some offense for some D, especially up the middle.

 

 

 

You're judging Hanley on what is, probably, his worst year in the big leagues. Check his past couple of years (larger sample) and look at his value compared to other shortstops.

 

As MarlinsLou has said many times, the point is to get production somehow. Despite their mediocre defense, the offense Hanley and Uggla provide far outweigh any defensive problems they bring to the team. They're helping the team win games. It's one of the most, if not the most, productive middle infield(s) over the years.

[Anonymous]

Mike Stanton has a 2.1 War. Muhahahaha

[Rabbethan]

So you want to move him from shortstop because, in the worst season he's had in years, he's 3rd in WAR (which I think sucks but that's besides the point) at his position? 3rd out of 21 isn't good enough I guess.

[Admin]

His value is down, not just because of his defense, but because he is having the worst year at the plate in his career.

 

He's had bad defensive years in the past and yet his value was still sky high (in terms of WAR).

 

And this is coming from someone who is more down on Hanley's defense than most are.

[Erick]

So you want to move him from shortstop because, in the worst season he's had in years, he's 3rd in WAR (which I think sucks but that's besides the point) at his position? 3rd out of 21 isn't good enough I guess.

 

 

 

That's true. Hanley's also close to 1st in the category, as well.

And WAR, especially over a small sample, isn't a great statistic to me either, imo. A lot of it has to do with defense, and how unclear the defensive statistics are. It's nice to have something to base things off, but defensive stats/yearly WAR stats aren't so telling.

 

I'd take Hanley over Alexei Ramirez anyday. Hanley hasn't been this bad defensively the last couple of years, which means that this could just be a product of a small sample this year. And Alexei Ramirez, based on fangraphs defensive statistic, hasn't been this good defensively the last couple of years, either. He was a -10.8 in 2008 which is horrible, a 3.7 in 2009, and now a 10 this year, making him look like the second coming of Ozzie Smith.

[Admin]

Defensive statistics may not be perfect but for me they pass the eye-test enough that I think they hold some weight.

 

They seem to be consistent with what I've observed with Ramirez. He was terrible his first year or two and right when people were suggesting he move to the outfield, he showed a lot of improvement, but still nothing spectacular. For whatever reason, he's regressed a bit this season. He certainly looks worse to me than he did last year. He bounces a lot of throws and he doesn't get to a lot of balls I expect him too. I think he's been worse this season than most people here are willing to admit, which is pretty consistent with the numbers. I remember when the Marlins were in town for three games I was appalled how terrible the infield defense was up the middle (Uggla too) and they weren't necessarily making a bunch of errors.

 

 

I think defense can be improved upon, though. Coghlan, while still not awesome, improved a great deal from 2009 in LF.

[MarlinsLou]

Hanley had a neutral defensive rating 08-09. Erick said it, don't overreact to this season. Now, if he keeps a -12 UZR for the next two seasons, it might be time for a shift to LF, but were nowhere near that. And quite frankly, I am exceedingly optimistic Hanley reverts back into a neutral defender rather overnight. I don't think this is a present problem.

[Fish Dynasty]

Having Hanley move positions would automatically drop his value in terms of his hitting ability for his position. Plus, I think you are also assuming that Hanley would be a better defensive player wherever he moves to.

 

The last thing we would want is to have Hanley change into something like an outfielder where his hitting ability wouldn't be great for his position, and his defense wouldn't improve at all because of his unfamiliarity with the position (like Coghlan.)

[Something_Fishy]

It's very possible his defensive regression is the result of his (relatively) poor year at the plate. Before he shifted back to a more open stance, reports were coming out that he was really trying hard to figure out what's going on with himself offensively, and while it shouldn't really make a difference for his defense, who's to say it wasn't eating at him from the back of his mind over every play? Maybe it's be sort of a "I need to play good defense to make up for my bad at bat last half inning" kind of thing?

[BroncoBob27]

Defensive statistics may not be perfect but for me they pass the eye-test enough that I think they hold some weight.

 

 

 

Something I will never agree with. Too many different "formulas" that can be looked at. Alot of folks have a habit of finding the one that most agrees with their opinion and then go by that one. That's not a rub on anyone, I think it's just human nature. But if you listen to everyone give out the stats on our guys one by one we would have at least an average defensive team. Yet check out the final results. There we are, right near the bottom of the list defensively in the majors. Again this year. That's been pretty consistent. I just can't see how anyone can argue with the final results when it is basically the same year after year.

[Admin]

Or we can just be painfully biased like you. Or just wrong.

 

"Christian Guzman doesn't get enough attention as a defensive shortstop."

 

How's that any better?

 

And that stats, while not perfect, absolutely indicate that the Marlins are a terrible defensive team this season. I've seen nothing that says otherwise.

[MVETOY]

We can check and see what the fans want, offense, when we read what fans talk about we hear we should bring up player X, because he knocking the rwahide off the ball, we never hear one saying he is great with his glove, what do we hear with Hanley, he is the best hitter in baseball, so we have to put up with his glove, still it is not the worse,

[MarlinsLou]

Or we can just be painfully biased like you. Or just wrong.

 

"Christian Guzman doesn't get enough attention as a defensive shortstop."

 

How's that any better?

 

And that stats, while not perfect, absolutely indicate that the Marlins are a terrible defensive team this season. I've seen nothing that says otherwise.

 

Yep. Cantu, Coghlan, the starting pitchers, Uggla, and Hanley are really killing this year defensively. As usual, that guy doesn't get it. Can't seem to grasp that defense should improve in the future with moving the first two of those respectivey, the pitchers growing up and holding runners, additions of two hugely positive defensive players with Maybin and Dominguez in the next 1-2 years, and Hanley reverting back to his 08-09 defensive rates. I'm still trying to figuere out the unreasonable part to this. And that's ignoring the overall production of a player train of thought where Uggla can play defense as bad as he wants if he hits like this.

 

Oh well.

[flasportsfan88]

Let me get this straight before I continue to debate the topic, does WAR calculate how important each position is compared to the other when determining which player has more worth. For example a good defensive shortstop has a lot more worth than a good defensive left fielder?

[mystikol87]

Yes. If you look at any player on fangraphs, all the way at the bottom, it shows what goes into WAR. Batting, fielding, replacement level, and positional value. I don't think it includes baserunning or speed though?

[Erick]

Defensive statistics may not be perfect but for me they pass the eye-test enough that I think they hold some weight.

 

 

 

Something I will never agree with. Too many different "formulas" that can be looked at. Alot of folks have a habit of finding the one that most agrees with their opinion and then go by that one. That's not a rub on anyone, I think it's just human nature. But if you listen to everyone give out the stats on our guys one by one we would have at least an average defensive team. Yet check out the final results. There we are, right near the bottom of the list defensively in the majors. Again this year. That's been pretty consistent. I just can't see how anyone can argue with the final results when it is basically the same year after year.

 

 

What are you talking about?

 

According to statistics...

Cantu was absolutely horrible at 3B

Hanley's been bad at SS

Uggla's been below average at 2B

Coghlan's been bad at LF

 

Our pitchers are also absolutely horrible fielders.

 

Seriously, what are you talking about?

 

By the way, the two guys you hate. John Baker, according to stats, is not good defensively, and Gaby is average.

 

So again, you just make no sense.

[flasportsfan88]

Hanley's value would go down if he went from SS to 3B. But his defense would probably be above average at third base. If you get a defensive oriented SS in here, you go from having a below average SS and 3b, to an above average 3B and SS.

 

I understand that with Hanley, a very above average offensive shortstop, and a league average offensive 3b has an offensive advantage over a defensive shortstop who's league average offensively and Hanley at third, who wouldn't be as above average offensively as a 3b. But my argument is that I'm confident in our offense in the future. But I'm not confident in the defense, especially since Hanley keeps filling in and putting on weight with age. Sometimes we forget just about big of a deal shortstop is, I always say if we had just an average shortstop in 2003 and not Alex Gonzalez I don't think we win the series that year. I'd even consider trading a Gaby to make room for this and to help bolster the pitching staff, which lets admit, is thinner than we've ever seen this organization under Beinfest.

 

I know it might be a little premature because no one can be positive how Morrison or even Coghlan will eventually turn out, but I feel if Uggla is resigned...

 

Coghlan, Morrison, Stanton, Hanley, Morrison, Uggla seems like plenty of offense if our pitching and defense is good. Just look at teams right now like San Diego, St. Louis, Cincinatti, Minnessota, Atlanta, San Fransico, they don't have 7 or 8 guys on the field who are out of position to try and have every position on the diamond above average offensively.

 

I haven't really looked but can anybody find me a world series winning team in the last 10 years with defense in the bottom 5 in the league?

[mystikol87]

It's about optimizing net production from each and every player on the field.

 

Trading some offense for pitching would only be beneficial if (roughly and mathematically-speaking):

 

[New Pitcher] - [Old Pitcher] > [Gaby] - [Gaby's Replacement]

 

With trading for or signing pitching.....getting a middle-of-the-rotation type won't impress me personally, because it's quite possible that Volstad/West figure out how to be that soon enough. If we're making a move, I'd want it to be big for a #2 or better starter. I know these are tough to come by, but if we can't get someone like that, then I would stand pat (with the possible exception of a veteran #5 for cheap, but if that's going to turn out like Nate Robertson, then I'll pass).

 

The same thing with defense, of course. Hanley is a net superstar at SS, regardless of fielding. If we can find average production at 3B, the roughly comparable situation would be Hanley as an above-average 3B and finding another net well-above-average SS. That will be difficult.

 

Even stretching the effects of better/worse defense and saying it allows our pitching staff to throw fewer pitches, I still think the organization would have to be void of 3B options (we shouldn't be by 2012 because of Dominguez), and have a really strong option to replace Hanley at SS.

 

At this point, Ozzie Martinez doesn't project as an above-average starter, and Matt Dominguez does. And decent 3B come at much less of a premium than decent SS, if memory serves.

[E CaT PanTHer]

I know most of you guys will disagree with this but I say we trade Hanley next year. His contract is over when, in 2013?? Is there any realistic possibility that we resign him after that? I highly doubt it. He's going to ask for a ton of money and I think we can all sense that his heart isn't with the Marlins anymore. I'm not saying he's giving up, he's still giving 100% effort. But once that passion is lost and you're playing more from a business perspective, your numbers will naturally go down. Honestly the season Hanley is having this year, I really don't see him performing much better in the years to come. .290, 25 homers, 95 RBI's. IF we trade him, we can definitely get some high profile prospects along with some big names out there. I say the front office pulls the trigger. I think it will be best for Hanley and the Marlins.

[mystikol87]

I know most of you guys will disagree with this but I say we trade Hanley next year. His contract is over when, in 2013?? Is there any realistic possibility that we resign him after that? I highly doubt it. He's going to ask for a ton of money and I think we can all sense that his heart isn't with the Marlins anymore. I'm not saying he's giving up, he's still giving 100% effort. But once that passion is lost and you're playing more from a business perspective, your numbers will naturally go down. Honestly the season Hanley is having this year, I really don't see him performing much better in the years to come. .290, 25 homers, 95 RBI's. IF we trade him, we can definitely get some high profile prospects along with some big names out there. I say the front office pulls the trigger. I think it will be best for Hanley and the Marlins.

 

 

 

How can you sense it? He's giving 100%, but his heart isn't in it? This also makes no sense.

[I Love Me Some Fish]

I know most of you guys will disagree with this but I say we trade Hanley next year. His contract is over when, in 2013?? Is there any realistic possibility that we resign him after that? I highly doubt it. He's going to ask for a ton of money and I think we can all sense that his heart isn't with the Marlins anymore. I'm not saying he's giving up, he's still giving 100% effort. But once that passion is lost and you're playing more from a business perspective, your numbers will naturally go down. Honestly the season Hanley is having this year, I really don't see him performing much better in the years to come. .290, 25 homers, 95 RBI's. IF we trade him, we can definitely get some high profile prospects along with some big names out there. I say the front office pulls the trigger. I think it will be best for Hanley and the Marlins.

 

 

 

How can you sense it? He's giving 100%, but his heart isn't in it? This also makes no sense.

 

Maybe we should wait til then...it's still only 2010