Reyes was a fun player, but his tools don't equate to someone making 100 million.

Reyes was a fun player, but his tools don't equate to someone making 100 million.

 

 

Great defence, can hit 300, scores runs, steals bases, great teammate. That's enough for me.

He doesn't play great defense, for one.

 

The things you mentioned aren't worth that type of money.

 

I like Jose Reyes, but he's valuable due to the position he plays and his defense has been on a rather steady decline. Scoring runs is a team dependent stat. Great teammate is an intangible and you don't even know if that's true.

He doesn't play great defense, for one.

 

The things you mentioned aren't worth that type of money.

 

I like Jose Reyes, but he's valuable due to the position he plays and his defense has been on a rather steady decline. Scoring runs is a team dependent stat. Great teammate is an intangible and you don't even know if that's true.

 

You may not like this but... I agree with you 100% Erick!

Most of the players traded away were probably paid more than they were worth.

 

The reason this trade sucks is because they got pretty much nothing in return. It was a salary dump. Nowadays you cannot ask other teams to eat salary and get a real prospect in return. The Marlins FO insists they got some good prospects in return, but we all know better than to trust their judgment. The thing that pisses me off about the trade is how they try and spin it as making the team better. It doesn't make the team better in any way.

From a Baseball stand point the trade doesn't suck. At least going by what Baseball folks are saying about said deal. The reason everyone is up and arms about it is because the timing of the deal.

The addition of Perry Hill brings more credibility to the idea the Maelins are focusing in on defense right now.

 

It just occurred to me that we traded away one of the best defensive prospects in baseball (Matt Dominguez) for half a season of fat @ss Carlos Lee. This move is looking more and more foolish if the team is indeed going "all-in" on defense.

From a Baseball stand point the trade doesn't suck. At least going by what Baseball folks are saying about said deal. The reason everyone is up and arms about it is because the timing of the deal.

 

from a "think about the competency of this FO" stand point this trade is f***ing awful; plus it alienates the few fans that the team still has.

from a "think about the competency of this FO" stand point this trade is f***ing awful; plus it alienates the few fans that the team still has.

 

Didn't alienate me -- I was getting tired of watching a near-100 million payroll that didn't pitch well, didn't defend well and couldn't seem to hit for sh!t generally or at all when it mattered.

 

More fun to watch a bunch of younger guys knowing that if they actually somehow stay remotely in the running, Loria now has the ability to seriously add at the non-waiver trade deadline. Probably not in '13, but perhaps in '14.

 

What is it with unreasonable expectations? Pittsburgh hasn't had a winning season in 20 years. The Cubs haven't won a WS in 104 years. Cleveland in 67 years. The Phillies went 77 years, the Red Sox 85 years, and the White Sox 87 years without winning a WS. The Cubs haven't even won a pennant in 67 years. The Mariners have never won a pennant in 36 years of trying.

 

Houston and San Diego have never won a WS. The Royals haven't been to the post-season at all for 27 years. The Blue Jays for 19 years.

 

Baseball is a game of failure, hitters make outs about 70% of the time, egregious errors are made regularly, great pitchers get shelled regularly and 29 of 30 teams go home as failures every year.

 

At least Loria had the perspicacity to entirely blow up what was losing and doing so at a high cost.

 

If he'd decided to stick with the losing group we'd have been paying 50 mill for Buehrle, Ramirez and Reyes alone in '14 (18/16/16) and 41 mill just for Buehrle and Reyes in '15 (19/22.) Ugh.

 

Much better to start over.

"What is it with unreasonable expectations? Pittsburgh hasn't had a winning season in 20 years. The Cubs haven't won a WS in 104 years. Cleveland in 67 years. The Phillies went 77 years, the Red Sox 85 years, and the White Sox 87 years without winning a WS. The Cubs haven't even won a pennant in 67 years. The Mariners have never won a pennant in 36 years of trying."

 

yeah those teams have all been around MUCH longer than the Marlins have and have thus established some semblence of a generational fan base...can't build a fan base here when you consistently sh*t the bed and trade away your marketable guys and the only publicity is negative publicity. The only thing a child is going to hear from their father is "did you see how they just conned us?" or "don't get your hopes up timmy, they'll trade (cabrera, stanton, willis, alou, sheffield, JJ, etc.). But hey, if you want a Nolasco jersey for Christmas, that appears to be a solid investment"

The only thing a child is going to hear from their father is "did you see how they just conned us?"

 

Hey, fans are short-sighted, not to mention almost totally ignorant of business concepts. Nothing I can do about that other than to express my contrary opinion in defiance of the conventional wisdom that Loria is Lucifer incarnate.

 

Then, there are the idiots who think that he should eat a Glock. Or that the world would be better off if he was dead. That sort of stuff is the mindless shrieking of a bunch of adolescents.

 

This stadium will exist for at least 40 years (100+ years if Boston is any indication,) so the Marlins have a long time to build their base. Just like everyone else did, over decades. We're in stadium-year 2. Five years from now, nobody will be talking about the Toronto trade, there will be many other subsequent disappointments. Which is why I made the point about unreasonable expectations.

 

2 WS wins in 20 years is more than most franchises can brag about. Many franchises have entire generations of fans who went to their grave without so much as one WS win. Anywhere from 30 to 100 years of crap results. A FO that nobody likes is perhaps the most enduring feature of baseball because failure is rampant. Fans need to get over it and just enjoy the game.

you say they'll have 40+ years to build a base....it's not the same as it used to be where you kinda had to root for the local team despite their ups and downs...media coverage and access to teams across the states is MUCH MORE easier now than it was for those other teams fans when they were growing up...you have to build for the long term while remaining competitive and relevant in the short term. you can't just rip up the teams core (yes, most of us realize that from a baseball standpoint the trade kinda makes sense) without realizing you're throwing gasoline on a fire. the fans expected the marlins to ADD to the team this year, not throw everyone away to save a buck. Fans can just follow out of market games on the internet or by buying mlb season ticket now...they have other options unlike in years past. having 40 years to build a fan base in this market is a LOT different than having 40 years in the 70's or 80's.

didn't the fish have a solid fan base back in 97 before the sale? I'm not saying they need 40+ years to build a fanbase..i'm saying that the teams you used as examples had a huge chunk of time to build their fan base before there were easily accessible other options for the fans. things are a lot different now and the average fan will only see their favorite players going bye bye...yes, stars and faces of a franchise get traded, but seldom is it done so repeatedly as this team has done over the years. the fact that there was a stadium in place led people to believe they'd tweak the roster and not just dump EVERYONE aside from Stanton. The average fan isn't going to shell out the money it takes to take their family to the game to see a roster of nobodies on Ruggiano magnet night.

 

People were expecting pieces to be added where they needed to be added, not just blowing everything up and giving us a roster that will be expected to finish dead last after ONE season. How many times did we hear Loria and co. promise a FINANCIALLY competitive roster. They tried for ONE season...ONE....don't you understand that what they did was a gigantic slap in the face to the fans in S. Fla that have been waiting for this time to come for what seems like an eternity? Honestly, it baffles me how you can see this as a good thing. I will guarantee that this roster will draw even less attendance this year. If i had to put money on it i'll bet they struggle to draw 1.5 million fans next year and that will only give Loria and co. all the more reason to go back to crying poor. They had a golden opportunity to invest some more money with the money coming off the books for Hanley and Bell and pick up a player or two and show that they're willing to try for a few seasons instead of selling low on every player they traded.

 

Hooray! they cleared a ton of money off the books! Now what? Now they pocket more and more money while angering the average fan, pissing off their lone remaining star, and giving themselves another excuse not to spend all over again. This team has struggled with an image issue for awhile now of being cheapskates and with all the negativity surrounding the team this last year they decided to instead throw more fuel on the fire. This goes much further beyond just the actual talent being exchanged.

You think no one will remember this fire sale 5 years from now? Seriously?

 

C'mon, no one ever mentions the other 2 fire sales anymore, or the Cabrera deal for that matter.

 

Personally I think that Jeffrey Loria and company need to meet with the media and make some statements and take some questions that fans have and be a stand up guy about this. Yes a lot of people are still going to hate him but I just feel like it's needed. The moves aren't terrible in a bubble but you have got to be a better salesman than this. Throwing David Sampson out there is rubbing salt in the wound.

You think no one will remember this fire sale 5 years from now? Seriously?

 

C'mon, no one ever mentions the othe 2 fire sales anymore, or the Cabrera deal for that matter.

 

Personally I think that Jeffrey Loria and company need to meet with the media and make some statements and take some questions that fans have and be a stand up guy about this. Yes a lot of people are still going to hate him but I just feel like it's needed. The moves aren't terrible in a bubble but you have got to be a better salesman than this. Throwing David Sampson out there is rubbing salt in the wound.

 

Who else are they going to throw out there? David Samson is the essence of this organization.

Loria needs to do it. I realize it ain't gonna happen because he employs people to do this stuff and it's beneath him. But Samson ain't making the decisions. Loria was posing for pictures and doing interviews when it was new unis and new stadium and everything was wine and roses.

from a "think about the competency of this FO" stand point this trade is f***ing awful; plus it alienates the few fans that the team still has.

 

Didn't alienate me -- I was getting tired of watching a near-100 million payroll that didn't pitch well, didn't defend well and couldn't seem to hit for sh!t generally or at all when it mattered.

 

More fun to watch a bunch of younger guys knowing that if they actually somehow stay remotely in the running, Loria now has the ability to seriously add at the non-waiver trade deadline. Probably not in '13, but perhaps in '14.

 

What is it with unreasonable expectations? Pittsburgh hasn't had a winning season in 20 years. The Cubs haven't won a WS in 104 years. Cleveland in 67 years. The Phillies went 77 years, the Red Sox 85 years, and the White Sox 87 years without winning a WS. The Cubs haven't even won a pennant in 67 years. The Mariners have never won a pennant in 36 years of trying.

 

Houston and San Diego have never won a WS. The Royals haven't been to the post-season at all for 27 years. The Blue Jays for 19 years.

 

Baseball is a game of failure, hitters make outs about 70% of the time, egregious errors are made regularly, great pitchers get shelled regularly and 29 of 30 teams go home as failures every year.

 

At least Loria had the perspicacity to entirely blow up what was losing and doing so at a high cost.

 

If he'd decided to stick with the losing group we'd have been paying 50 mill for Buehrle, Ramirez and Reyes alone in '14 (18/16/16) and 41 mill just for Buehrle and Reyes in '15 (19/22.) Ugh.

 

Much better to start over.

I understand that point of view. But why is it so impossible to start over with a new GM or set of talent evaluators? The people who constructed and thought so highly of all the previous crappy Marlins teams.

I mean, they are building around pitching and defense. They're making offense so sh*tty, that pitching and defense are relatively pretty f***ing amazing.

I don't think the FO is the issue. When they tore down the '03-'05 teams they built some pretty good rosters. Our payroll right now is about the same as the '06 team, and that year they were a .500 ballclub when they were supposed to lose 120 games. If they HAD any payroll flexibility from '06-'10 they probably could have made 1, 2, or 3 FA signings that could have put those teams over the hump and into the postseason. At least this time around, if the talent we've picked up this time can develop into an 80-win roster like those teams, we probably DO have some payroll flexibility to add a guy here and there to make a run...

I don't think the FO is the issue. When they tore down the '03-'05 teams they built some pretty good rosters. Our payroll right now is about the same as the '06 team, and that year they were a .500 ballclub when they were supposed to lose 120 games. If they HAD any payroll flexibility from '06-'10 they probably could have made 1, 2, or 3 FA signings that could have put those teams over the hump and into the postseason. At least this time around, if the talent we've picked up this time can develop into an 80-win roster like those teams, we probably DO have some payroll flexibility to add a guy here and there to make a run...

 

 

The team assembled a nice group of young talent in 2006, but the real test comes in what they did with that talent. Other than Cabrera, who was a different beast altogether than the rest of the roster, the organization failed to leverage their young talent into something meaningful, instead they just waited until guys hit their rock bottom and were making arbitration money before shipping them out for meager returns. Maybe if the Cabrera trade had even half worked out it would have been a different story, but the fact remains that the Marlins traded for two prospects who were highly rated but also high risk guys, and their production ended up fulfilling the latter category.

 

Post 2006 the Marlins game plan, as far as we can tell by what they actually did, was to trade whatever players stopped producing. The problem is that you end up constantly removing talent without really adding much talent. We did get lucky on a couple players here and there, like Cantu, but in the you are getting less and less talent on your roster every year unless you are also drafting good players, which besides Stanton, we aren't.