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We have a lot of SP depth


Erick

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I made the point last year that we had a lot of starting pitcher depth and I stand by that based on who I was referring to at the time.

 

Alvarez, Jose, Desclafani, Urena, Heaney, Cosart, Koehler, Nicolino, Conley, Flynn at the time.

 

We still do.  WE just need to get healthy.  We have enough pitching to get by with a true ace, a quality #2/3 and a huge line of guys who definitely should be able to hold their own in the back of a major league rotation.  We just have a shitty lineup and bad bullpen aside from 2 guys.

 

 

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This is a good rotation with Jose/Alvarez at 100% all year. Those two are below or near 3 ERA guys, Haren has been a low 3 ERA guy, and everybody else in the rotation have been mediocre 4 ERA guys. Not a rotation for all time, but we'd be in much better standing with Jose/Alvarez/Haren/Latos/Cosart, which would've been the rotation to start with everyone at 100%.

 

 

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This is a good rotation with Jose/Alvarez at 100% all year. Those two are below or near 3 ERA guys, Haren has been a low 3 ERA guy, and everybody else in the rotation have been mediocre 4 ERA guys. Not a rotation for all time, but we'd be in much better standing with Jose/Alvarez/Haren/Latos/Cosart, which would've been the rotation to start with everyone at 100%.

 

the Rockies top starters have like 5 ERAs and a better record than the Marlins. starting pitching probably definitely aint the problem; especially with all the young dudes coming back soon

 

 

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the Rockies top starters have like 5 ERAs and a better record than the Marlins. starting pitching probably definitely aint the problem; especially with all the young dudes coming back soon

 

Put our starting pitchers in Coors Field and see what happens. This starting rotation we have is as mediocre as it gets. Dan Haren has been our best pitcher this year and he stinks.

 

 

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The bottom line is that, aside from Jose, every pitcher on this staff pitches to contact. And they're not even guys who induce weak contact either, they just stink and have been fortunate to pitch in a spacious park. The defense is also very good and has saved runs.

 

This pitching staff stinks. I actually think it's a bigger problem than the offense because the problem with the offense, in large part, is that we've gotten little to no production from 2/3rd's of what was supposed to be the best outfield in baseball. Yelich and Ozuna have been garbage. I'm hoping that's not their true talent level because, if it is, the organization is in trouble long-term.

 

It's no surprise that this rotation stinks. It had plenty of question marks coming into the year and it's been as advertised.

 

 

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The bottom line is that, aside from Jose, every pitcher on this staff pitches to contact. And they're not even guys who induce weak contact either, they just stink and have been fortunate to pitch in a spacious park. The defense is also very good and has saved runs.

 

This pitching staff stinks. I actually think it's a bigger problem than the offense because the problem with the offense, in large part, is that we've gotten little to no production from 2/3rd's of what was supposed to be the best outfield in baseball. Yelich and Ozuna have been garbage. I'm hoping that's not their true talent level because, if it is, the organization is in trouble long-term.

 

It's no surprise that this rotation stinks. It had plenty of question marks coming into the year and it's been as advertised.

 

This rotation doesnt stink.  When healthy this a a good rotation.  Jose, Alvarez, Haren, Cosart, Koehler, Urena, Nicolino,   That is more than capable with a good offense and a good bullpen.  Unfortunately we have had 3 of our 4 or 5 best pitchers out for the majority of this year.

 

 

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This rotation doesnt stink.  When healthy this a a good rotation.  Jose, Alvarez, Haren, Cosart, Koehler, Urena, Nicolino,   That is more than capable with a good offense and a good bullpen.  Unfortunately we have had 3 of our 4 or 5 best pitchers out for the majority of this year.

 

I love Jose and I'm still a believer in Alvarez although he's probably not as good as he was last year fwiw. The other guys listed are nothing special/incredibly replaceable. I said this before the year too so it's not just a reactionary thing. We have all this "depth" but the reality is that the "depth" is just mediocrity.

 

It's gonna be sad when they blame this season on injuries when the reality is that guys like Latos and Cosart have been no better than their replacements when healthy. 

 

And while it sucks that Jose Fernandez wasn't healthy, they already knew this before the year began so it's not as if it's something that they shouldn't have been prepared for. This team needed another top SP last offseason.

 

 

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I love Jose and I'm still a believer in Alvarez although he's probably not as good as he was last year fwiw. The other guys listed are nothing special/incredibly replaceable. I said this before the year too so it's not just a reactionary thing. We have all this "depth" but the reality is that the "depth" is just mediocrity.

 

It's gonna be sad when they blame this season on injuries when the reality is that guys like Latos and Cosart have been no better than their replacements when healthy. 

 

And while it sucks that Jose Fernandez wasn't healthy, they already knew this before the year began so it's not as if it's something that they shouldn't have been prepared for. This team needed another top SP last offseason.

 

Dan Haren has been good and Koehler is better than most 4/5's in the league.  Don't get me wrong, our rotation isn't spectacular or historic, but it is not bad and when healthy we have a young phenom, a good #2, a nice veteran pitcher who fits very nicely in our ballpark, and like 6 different options for the #4/5 spot where at least 2 of them should be able to hold their own in the majors.

 

Obviously we could be better, but the rotation is not the problem.  It is the problem when you have Phelps, Hand, Flores, etc in it but not when we are healthy.

 

Our problem is, and has been for years, is that we rely on reclamation projects and overrated younger players to fill out our lineup and our lineup is always horrible or at the very best incredibly inconsistent.

 

 

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You need to consider the dimensions of our ballpark when considering results and what's good/what's bad.

 

Tom Koehler is probably best suited as a reliever as he can only face the order a couple of times before running out of gas. He's actually no better than David Phelps who just criticized, for example. Koehler is also due a raise in salary next year and might not be back since he's a replaceable guy. He's already been in trade rumors for that reason so he's not a guy to count on long-term.

 

Haren stinks. Don't let the 3.19 ERA fool you because it won't last. He's pitched to the skill level of a 4.4-4.5 ERA guy and is a guy who should be immediately traded for the best return possible assuming another GM thinks he's good now. This is the same guy who was a salary dump before the year began.

 

Urena and Nicolino are supposed to be the guys to get excited about. Urena pitches to contact way too much. I can live with him in the back of the rotation next year considering he's cheap/shouldn't be much worse than what we have now, but the guy looks more like a reliever at this point in his career.

 

Nicolino is, at best, another Mark Buehrle. Counting on another Mark Buehrle isn't good either because Mark Buehrle is an anomaly. Relying on guys who pitch to contact that much is dangerous. Again, I'm fine with Nicolino as a #4 type guy but I hope no one is expecting him to be a stud because he really isn't.

 

That leaves me with Cosart. Incredibly hittable most nights when he falls in love with his fastball and has control issues. The organization is already backtracking on him just a year after that trade apparently as he's the one being moved to the bullpen now. I wouldn't count on him either.

 

And while I like Alvarez because of his great control, it's worth noting that it's not smart to rely on him either. He could very well turn into just another contact pitcher. More importantly, he's been pitching with a UCL tear for awhile now. It wouldn't be shocking if he needs to get surgery on that at some point and misses time. 

 

And let's not even start on prospects because we don't have anything. Tyler Kolek is the only thing to look forward to in the minors and he's 19/nowhere near big league ready (assuming he's ever good which isn't necessarily a given with a pitcher, especially one drafted out of high school).

 

It's going to be difficult to win with this type of pitching. Especially when you consider the Nationals pitching, the Mets pitching, and what the Braves are building with their pitching. Our pitching has to be better. 

 

The solution to the offense is actually rather simple. This organization needs to start believing in platoons at certain positions. It would increase production in the lineup. As you said, they fall in love with players and make them every day guys when they're not every day guys. That's the problem.

 

 

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While I agree that most of these guys are not world beaters, I feel like you are taking the negative spin on most of these guys.  Hell, our starting pitching isn't as important simply because our ballpark makes guys look a lot better than they are.  I think we have a good group of guys when jose and alvarez are healthy and if we could sign a quality SP every once in a while rather than always looking for reclamation projects we would be a lot better off.

 

Its fucking criminal that our payroll is still low.  Everyone makes it seem like we are so much different now with a little bit higher payroll but we have one of the lowest payrolls in baseball still.  We should be at at least $100 million in this day and age and the fact that we aren't, and are having as many teams pay for our players in trades as we did last year is absolutely criminal.  

 

this might be a bit simplified but nothing will ever change with this ownership group in tact.  we are the laughing stock of baseball and that won't change for the foreseeable future.

 

 

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While I agree that most of these guys are not world beaters, I feel like you are taking the negative spin on most of these guys.  Hell, our starting pitching isn't as important simply because our ballpark makes guys look a lot better than they are.  I think we have a good group of guys when jose and alvarez are healthy and if we could sign a quality SP every once in a while rather than always looking for reclamation projects we would be a lot better off.

 

Its fucking criminal that our payroll is still low.  Everyone makes it seem like we are so much different now with a little bit higher payroll but we have one of the lowest payrolls in baseball still.  We should be at at least $100 million in this day and age and the fact that we aren't, and are having as many teams pay for our players in trades as we did last year is absolutely criminal.  

 

this might be a bit simplified but nothing will ever change with this ownership group in tact.  we are the laughing stock of baseball and that won't change for the foreseeable future.

 

I agree with you about payroll. That's only half the problem though. This organization is just not smart either. They spend like a small market team, yet put their lineups together like a big market team. Is there another small market team in baseball that doesn't care for platoons? It's a cost-efficient way to get better production, yet the Marlins refuse to do it more often than not.

 

 

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I agree with you about payroll. That's only half the problem though. This organization is just not smart either. They spend like a small market team, yet put their lineups together like a big market team. Is there another small market team in baseball that doesn't care for platoons? It's a cost-efficient way to get better production, yet the Marlins refuse to do it more often than not.

 

trust me i sent samson a rant email earlier in the year about that and how stupid it is that they construct the team as if they are in the 1980's, information wise.  It is absolutely mind boggling how bad this team is all around.  On the field, ownership, front office, marketing.  Its hard to be this bad.

 

 

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This is a solid rotation (solid as in at least league average) if everyone is healthy: Fernandez, Alvarez, Haren plus any two of Cosart, Koehler, and Latos at the back end. Injuries are more of a problem than underperformance.

 

However, the offense is pretty damn healthy for the most part. And those who are injured (Morse, Prado) were pretty shitty and underperforming before they got injured.

 

The offense still proves to be the main culprit for me. They need at least another 25+ HR power bat or two.

 

 

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as much as I think Loria should be spending more (the Marlins have the lowest payroll yknow), they are also second to last in revenue (right ahead of the Rays) so it's hard. 

 

...but they totally should have signed Scherzer last offseason.

 

As good as Scherzer is now, he was given a seven year contract for an AAV of $30 million. Yes, he's pitching great for the Nationals now, but if you actually want to do some long term planning that contract is guaranteed to become an albatross in three or four years time. Given the limited budget Loria likes to work with, we couldn't afford to be giving that much money to a player who'll eventually be on the decline. Nationals have the budget to allow for a future mistake as long as there's current success.

 

In retrospect, the big move everybody felt the Marlins missed with was not getting James Shields. But if you look over at what he's doing in San Diego, he isn't having huge success like he probably should be doing in such a pitcher friendly park. I went into this season confident the rotation should hold up until Jose came back and that we didn't need Shields. The Alvarez injury changed the complexion of the rotation a lot, but the truth is the rotation has been far too average this year. While Haren has flourished, Latos hugely regressed and Cosart hasn't performed well possibly due to his injury.

 

Looking at the pitching market this past offseason, I don't know if there even was an obvious move the Marlins could've made that would've turned our current rotation into a good one. The biggest move was acquiring Latos, and he's bombed much harder than expected. As much as it's fun to look around and find blame for every wrong move, I really believe I'd chalk up the problems with the rotation to just some poor hindsight and some bad luck. All the average pitcher's we have in the rotation are performing like average pitcher's (Phelps/Koehler/Hand/Cosart all with ERA's hovering around the low 4 area), Alvarez and Jose with the injury problems, and Latos just not being the same pitcher as he previously was. The only success story has been Haren, and the funny thing is he didn't even want to pitch for us. If you build a rotation like the Marlins did this offseason, you hope for a few breakout candidates. That didn't happen, and all the average pitchers went about the season being average. The results are as you see so far this season.

 

I'm still hopeful one of these younger prospects (Urena/Nicolino/Flores) breaks out of their #4/5 pitcher expectations and can fill that #3 role we desperately need after Haren is traded (and Jose/Alvarez return). Obviously with Jose and Hendo healthy this rotation goes from being slightly below average to an above average rotation again. But we do need one more piece. I don't think we were really in any position to acquire that piece this offseason. Who knows about this offseason.

 

 

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I agree with you about payroll. That's only half the problem though. This organization is just not smart either. They spend like a small market team, yet put their lineups together like a big market team. Is there another small market team in baseball that doesn't care for platoons? It's a cost-efficient way to get better production, yet the Marlins refuse to do it more often than not.

 

You are so right. They have no balance there. It sucks, after spending millions this past off season, attendance is embarrassing. They need to figure something out and find some equilibrium. 

 

 

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