I just read a pretty scathing piece in SI about the Pirates. The NL is going to be a mess this year - a few teams up around 100 wins and a bunch of teams down under 65 wins. Manfred needs to fix this quickly, or we’re going to have a really, really big problem

 

 

I just read a pretty scathing piece in SI about the Pirates. The NL is going to be a mess this year - a few teams up around 100 wins and a bunch of teams down under 65 wins. Manfred needs to fix this quickly, or we’re going to have a really, really big problem

 

Ill guarantee you there isnt more than 2 teams below 65 wins.  People say the same things every year and some teams surprise and some teams disappoint.

 

 

The Pirates aren't that bad. 

 

 

Ill guarantee you there isnt more than 2 teams below 65 wins.  People say the same things every year and some teams surprise and some teams disappoint.

 

One thing that might help that is with so many teams tanking, somebody has to win all those games between them. But the combination of analytics, which encourage tanking, and the current CBA, which doesn't discourage tanking, means that more teams are doing it at the same time than before. With 5 playoff spots available in the NL, there are only about 7 teams that are seriously contending for them this year. The rest are playing out the string, shedding payroll, playing kids and rejects, and hoping to find a group of players that could take them into an Astros/Royals type run in a few years. Trouble is, with the Pirates, Padres, Phillies, Marlins, Braves, and Reds all terrible, and a similar number of bad teams in the AL, it's going to take a supremely bad team to get a chance at the next Carlos Correa or Bryce Harper. So it's a race to the bottom as much as it's a race to the top.

 

 

I used to believe small market teams can be competitive, and to an extent, they can.  But the reality is, they have VERY small windows without extending or retaining players.  Look at the Pirates and Royals.  Their windows are already slammed shut after how long it took to even reach that point.  So as fans of small market teams, we have to wait and hope the rebuild works for a 2 to 3 year window, and if that doesnt work, another long rebuilding cycle.  Baseball is very screwed up.

 

 

I used to believe small market teams can be competitive, and to an extent, they can.  But the reality is, they have VERY small windows without extending or retaining players.  Look at the Pirates and Royals.  Their windows are already slammed shut after how long it took to even reach that point.  So as fans of small market teams, we have to wait and hope the rebuild works for a 2 to 3 year window, and if that doesnt work, another long rebuilding cycle.  Baseball is very screwed up.

 

This is well said. 

 

 

One thing that might help that is with so many teams tanking, somebody has to win all those games between them. But the combination of analytics, which encourage tanking, and the current CBA, which doesn't discourage tanking, means that more teams are doing it at the same time than before. With 5 playoff spots available in the NL, there are only about 7 teams that are seriously contending for them this year. The rest are playing out the string, shedding payroll, playing kids and rejects, and hoping to find a group of players that could take them into an Astros/Royals type run in a few years. Trouble is, with the Pirates, Padres, Phillies, Marlins, Braves, and Reds all terrible, and a similar number of bad teams in the AL, it's going to take a supremely bad team to get a chance at the next Carlos Correa or Bryce Harper. So it's a race to the bottom as much as it's a race to the top.

 

a few of those teams will surprise.  And the Braves will be a very solid team this year, the pirates wont be terrible, and the padres and phillies each could surprise given their farm systems.  We go through this every year.  Baseball is an unpredictable sport and teams will over achieve and under achieve their expectations.

 

 

I used to believe small market teams can be competitive, and to an extent, they can.  But the reality is, they have VERY small windows without extending or retaining players.  Look at the Pirates and Royals.  Their windows are already slammed shut after how long it took to even reach that point.  So as fans of small market teams, we have to wait and hope the rebuild works for a 2 to 3 year window, and if that doesnt work, another long rebuilding cycle.  Baseball is very screwed up.

 

i dont agree with this to an extent.  If you continue the proper process, i.e. drafting well and spending in IFA, you can compete year in and year out even in a small market.  It obviously is harder to retain players, but if you continue to draft and spend money smartly and get rid of assets at the right time, you can still compete every year even when losing players to free agency or pre-free agency trades.

 

 

Name an example of this where it has consistently worked in the past please. I could be wrong, but I don't remember a situation like this yet with positive results. I briefly thought Tampa Bay but they haven't really had sustained true competitiveness.

 

There's exactly one - St. Louis. One losing record this century. Market smaller than South Florida.

 

 

Their payroll hasn't been low, that comparison makes no sense. Cardinal fans actually go to the games so there's more revenue and the revenue is actually utilized. Miami may be a bigger market but the team has rarely operated that way and will continue not to for the forseeable future.

 

http://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/national-league-central/st-louis-cardinals/

 

so the problem isnt the small market, it is the interest of the fans in the small market.  Not the system itself.

 

 

Name an example of this where it has consistently worked in the past please. I could be wrong, but I don't remember a situation like this yet with positive results. I briefly thought Tampa Bay but they haven't really had sustained true competitiveness.

 

obviously teams arent going to be great every year, but several small market teams have had sustained success of quite a few successful seasons. Twins in the 2000's had a 10 year run of sustained success. Houston is now set up for that, although it's more of a small baseball market than a small market in general.  Oakland has been fairly consistently successful since 2000 even though theyve had some bad seasons in there too. Cardinals are probably the best example.  

 

My overall point is its more on consistent management than the system itself.  Cardinals arent good year in and year out because of their attendance.  It's because they are the best drafting team in the league and dont sign stupid contracts like Pujols that limit their ability to form a competent team as a whole.

 

 

I do agree that rebuilding with a small market team leads to "windows" of contending. If done right these windows either last longer or are closer together when separated but, to date, I can't think of one small market team that has stayed competitive for a prolonged period of time without rebuilding or retooling in between. 

 

 

Their payroll hasn't been low, that comparison makes no sense. Cardinal fans actually go to the games so there's more revenue and the revenue is actually utilized. Miami may be a bigger market but the team has rarely operated that way and will continue not to for the forseeable future.

 

http://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/national-league-central/st-louis-cardinals/

 

The Cardinals did a bunch of things right years ago that have helped with revenue. Winning clearly helps - not only do people go, but people watch Cardinals games. The ownership is local. Along with their stadium they built Ballpark Village, where people could hang out, eat, drink, etc. - a huge draw and a huge money-maker. It's clear that the Cardinals care about St. Louis, and that the fans have faith in the club. The key phrase in the above quote is "the revenue is actually utiilzed". The payroll figure is in the middle of the pack in MLB.

 

 

The Cardinals did a bunch of things right years ago that have helped with revenue. Winning clearly helps - not only do people go, but people watch Cardinals games. The ownership is local. Along with their stadium they built Ballpark Village, where people could hang out, eat, drink, etc. - a huge draw and a huge money-maker. It's clear that the Cardinals care about St. Louis, and that the fans have faith in the club. The key phrase in the above quote is "the revenue is actually utiilzed". The payroll figure is in the middle of the pack in MLB.

 

Ya, the marlins fucked up by putting absolutely nothing around the ballpark.  No one wants to go into those little shops on the bottom of the parking garages and the area around the ballpark sucks.  The teams that do it right do it like your saying the cardinals did as well as how the new braves stadium is that i went to this year.  When those teams suck there are other things to do around the ballpark that draw fans in.  When the marlins suck there isnt.  And the Clevelander is pretty crappy too.  Could have been done much better.

 

 

It is a chicken and egg thing though. Why would good businesses want to pay for real estate there where there are no fans every year?

 

Oh, im not saying businesses should want to be there.  The area around the ballpark is a dump and is not all that close to anything cool and fun like those other cities have.  It's part of the reason why choosing the orange bowl site was a bad choice, but that is a topic for 10 years ago.

 

 

The Cardinals did a bunch of things right years ago that have helped with revenue. Winning clearly helps - not only do people go, but people watch Cardinals games. The ownership is local. Along with their stadium they built Ballpark Village, where people could hang out, eat, drink, etc. - a huge draw and a huge money-maker. It's clear that the Cardinals care about St. Louis, and that the fans have faith in the club. The key phrase in the above quote is "the revenue is actually utiilzed". The payroll figure is in the middle of the pack in MLB.

 

The Cardinals are also iconic and once had the largest radio network in America (distance wise).

 

Its a generational thing. That kinda helps too.

 

 

The city is the one at fault for not putting businesses in the garages and around the ballpark, not the Marlins. This is one thing I'm 110% sure of. The garages belong to the city and it was/is their responsibility to put businesses there. This has been stated before that the Marlins have nothing to do with that. 

 

 

The city is the one at fault for not putting businesses in the garages and around the ballpark, not the Marlins. This is one thing I'm 110% sure of. The garages belong to the city and it was/is their responsibility to put businesses there. This has been stated before that the Marlins have nothing to do with that. 

 

While they are in charge of putting businesses in the garage, they cant just create demand for that.  Which goes back to the problem of where the ballpark is located and the marlins problems with attendance.  Just imagine being a business owner trying to consider where to put your business.  It makes no sense from a business standpoint to put a business in those garages for a variety of reasons.  First off, youre only getting traffic 81 days a year.  Second, youre not getting significant traffic on the majority of those 81 days a year.  And the remainder of the year youre stuck running a business in a poor neighborhood.  

 

It all goes back to the ballpark being in a bad location.  I know there werent many choices, but unless there is a wynwood style redevelopment of that area, there will never be sustainable businesses on the bottom of those garages. 

 

 

The city is the one at fault for not putting businesses in the garages and around the ballpark, not the Marlins. This is one thing I'm 110% sure of. The garages belong to the city and it was/is their responsibility to put businesses there. This has been stated before that the Marlins have nothing to do with that. 

 

but didn't Loria swore to help out?

 

 

i dont agree with this to an extent.  If you continue the proper process, i.e. drafting well and spending in IFA, you can compete year in and year out even in a small market.  It obviously is harder to retain players, but if you continue to draft and spend money smartly and get rid of assets at the right time, you can still compete every year even when losing players to free agency or pre-free agency trades.

 

Thats not realistic to hit on a lot unproven players year after year, ie draft picks and international players.  Thats why practically no team has won long term with this strategy.

 

 

While yes the success of the team would help improve the area around the ballpark by creating more consumer traffic, this one is still on the city. The ballpark took almost 4 years to build and the city dropped the ball on getting businesses there by 2012. They should have had the majority of the garage tenants in there by 2012. Blaming the lack of businesses around the ballpark and under the garages on the Marlins lack of success at Marlins Park is changing the narrative because of hindsight. 

 

Long story short... the city had from 2009 to 2012 (When all the hype of the rebrand was flourishing) to get tenants for the garage businesses and they did not. 

 

 

While yes the success of the team would help improve the area around the ballpark by creating more consumer traffic, this one is still on the city. The ballpark took almost 4 years to build and the city dropped the ball on getting businesses there by 2012. They should have had the majority of the garage tenants in there by 2012. Blaming the lack of businesses around the ballpark and under the garages on the Marlins lack of success at Marlins Park is changing the narrative because of hindsight. 

 

Long story short... the city had from 2009 to 2012 (When all the hype of the rebrand was flourishing) to get tenants for the garage businesses and they did not. 

 

what do you expect the city to do?  You cant make an undesirable location desirable. Perhaps if its taken this long to get tenants in there its just not feasible.  The location is so bad.  The area around the ballpark is such a dump.

 

 

what do you expect the city to do?  You cant make an undesirable location desirable. Perhaps if its taken this long to get tenants in there its just not feasible.  The location is so bad.  The area around the ballpark is such a dump.

 

From 2009-2012 a new "state of the art" ballpark was being built with a major league baseball team (that was supposed to be a contender) about to move in to the community... I know that area is not the greatest but the location was NOT undesirable in terms of being a place to convince a businesses to open up a location. The flood of consumers that was coming through there in 2012 should have been something that businesses craved. 

 

It's been nearly a decade since Marlins Park got approved and to pretty much only have a cigar shop, a Subway, and a dialysis center in the garages is ridiculously bad and that is on the city. They screwed up big time there. 

 

 

From 2009-2012 a new "state of the art" ballpark was being built with a major league baseball team (that was supposed to be a contender) about to move in to the community... I know that area is not the greatest but the location was NOT undesirable in terms of being a place to convince a businesses to open up a location. The flood of consumers that was coming through there in 2012 should have been something that businesses craved. 

 

It's been nearly a decade since Marlins Park got approved and to pretty much only have a cigar shop, a Subway, and a dialysis center in the garages is ridiculously bad and that is on the city. They screwed up big time there. 

 

I guess we just disagree.  That location was never desirable.  And again, even with a ballpark being built there, the surrounding area had no plans for redevelopment around the ballpark and the ballpark was only active 81 days a year, many of which were on weekdays.  It's just a bad area.  Especially in comparison to what i've seen in Wrigley, Boston, and the great job they did outside the ballpark in atlanta.

 

 

Quotes from Samson in 2013 when asked why there were only a couple businesses open in the garages...

 

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