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1 hour ago, taiwanmarlin said:

Yeah, just don't expect this team to make it to the playoffs or have a winning season in the 2021, because it's just the fourth year in this current rebuilding and the success in the 2020 is just something unexpected. 

I 100% believe the Marlins EARNED their 2020 playoff spot, it was no fluke as some like to say... but it was definitely ahead of schedule and it was definitely helped by multiple other factors so I do think it was a case of exceeding expectations and shouldn't be what 2021 is compared to. 

I honestly believe the 2021 Marlins only have to be better than the 2019 Marlins. If so, things are looking good. If not then there's a big problem. So, no, the 2021 Marlins can not be expected to be a playoff team. I would think finishing at .500 or slightly better would be an excellent accomplishment for the 2021 Marlins.

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14 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

I 100% believe the Marlins EARNED their 2020 playoff spot, it was no fluke as some like to say... but it was definitely ahead of schedule and it was definitely helped by multiple other factors so I do think it was a case of exceeding expectations and shouldn't be what 2021 is compared to. 

I honestly believe the 2021 Marlins only have to be better than the 2019 Marlins. If so, things are looking good. If not then there's a big problem. So, no, the 2021 Marlins can not be expected to be a playoff team. I would think finishing at .500 or slightly better would be an excellent accomplishment for the 2021 Marlins.

I agree. I think it's reasonable to hope and expect similar production to 2020 -- i.e. a .500 or near-.500 team that has a real chance to luck into a playoff spot. If -- IF -- a couple of the young fellers make big improvements in 2021, then things could go even better. I mean, imagine a scenario where Sanchez and Bleday both force their way onto the 2021 roster. That's probably a playoff team.

But on the other hand, if a few starters go down with injuries and the team has to call on some youngers guys who aren't ready yet, then it's not difficult to envision a 70-92 season, unfortunately. So breaking the bank on Springer or Yates (or Lindor, a few days ago) really doesn't make sense for a team teetering on the knife of .500. You want to push hard when you're teetering on .600 because even then, an injury bug is unlikely to drop you below .500.

Spending big now is the Mets/Phillies model. Staying the course for another year is the Rays model.

Edited by Photo-Realistic Billy
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1 minute ago, Photo-Realistic Billy said:

Spending big now is the Mets/Phillies model. Staying the course for a another year is the Rays model.

A few weeks ago someone on here said it's too bad the Marlins operate more like the Rays than the big market teams.

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Just now, SilverBullet said:

A few weeks ago someone on here said it's too bad the Marlins operate more like the Rays than the big market teams.

I fully expect they'll act more like a mid-market team once (or if) they start filling the stadium. Running a Twins-like payroll doesn't seem impossible once they've begun to sustain success.

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I think it is (becoming) a fluke because the Mets, Nats, and Phillies underperformed, and the Marlins aren't responding to what is happening in the league.

The Mets have addressed many of their issues...and don't seem to be done.

The Nationals have a window still. But...to be fair...I am not so sure what we will see.

The Braves...oof.

The Phils...I fully expect to be better than their 2019 and 2020 and there is too much talent on that roster believe otherwise.

The Fish are looking at a 3-5 finish in the division. This is largely because they don't have a lot of protection in the lineup and they can't protect themselves. And watching Brinson and Alfaro flail for a season and the prospect of seeing it again, has made me slightly more nervous of about the prospects Diaz, Dias, and Jazz. Therefore, you can't tell me that if the Marlins took on payroll to snag Lindor...we wouldn't be happy with that lineup. That is a reality.

What is so wrong to want to see something added to the lineup? Is it wrong to want your owners to actively make efforts to infuse some faith in the season and provide their fans some hope much like Marte did.

Hope and faith are just as much a part of sports fandom as patience.

Personally, I don't know what will satisfy me this season...or maybe I have been victimized by this franchise for so long that I am afraid to admit I deserve competitive and winning baseball. Isn't that we are paying for?

It doesn't make someone a better fan because they can hold their breath the longest or endure more and/or deeper cuts.

I am also not saying that it isn't going to work out...I would just rather a sure...er...thing, because we have all been exactly here before many times.

I guess it a matter of perspective, and pontificating, or who knows, maybe I am just new here.

Edited by Major-Minor
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21 minutes ago, Major-Minor said:

I think it is (becoming) a fluke because the Mets, Nats, and Phillies underperformed, and the Marlins aren't responding to what is happening in the league.

The Mets have addressed many of their issues...and don't seem to be done.

The Nationals have a window still. But...to be fair...I am not so sure what we will see.

The Braves...oof.

The Phils...I fully expect to be better than their 2019 and 2020 and there is too much talent on that roster believe otherwise.

The Fish are looking at a 3-5 finish in the division. This is largely because they don't have a lot of protection in the lineup and they can't protect themselves. And watching Brinson and Alfaro flail for a season and the prospect of seeing it again, has made me slightly more nervous of about the prospects Diaz, Dias, and Jazz. Therefore, you can't tell me that if the Marlins took on payroll to snag Lindor...we wouldn't be happy with that lineup. That is a reality.

What is so wrong to want to see something added to the lineup? Is it wrong to want your owners to actively make efforts to infuse some faith in the season and provide their fans some hope much like Marte did.

Hope and faith are just as much a part of sports fandom as patience.

Personally, I don't know what will satisfy me this season...or maybe I have been victimized by this franchise for so long that I am afraid to admit I deserve competitive and winning baseball. Isn't that we are paying for?

It doesn't make someone a better fan because they can hold their breath the longest or endure more and/or deeper cuts.

I am also not saying that it isn't going to work out...I would just rather a sure...er...thing, because we have all been exactly here before many times.

I guess it a matter of perspective, and pontificating, or who knows, maybe I am just new here.

There's nothing wrong with wanting your team to improve and nobody is trying to prove who is a better fan than anyone else. However a sense of reality does feel needed when a Miami Marlins fan is flipping out daily because the team won't spend big. 

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27 minutes ago, Major-Minor said:

maybe I have been victimized by this franchise for so long that I am afraid to admit I deserve competitive and winning baseball. Isn't that we are paying for?

We all want this. But this team, and countless others, have shown there are huge problems with trying to get to this "the wrong way" and so I'm ok with trusting and hoping that they're on the right path to this goal.

Sometimes I feel like this point has been beaten to death and yet people still want the Marlins to go about things "the wrong way" when they've proven so often that "the wrong way" doesn't lead to anything good for this team. 

But hey whoever wants to keep praying for the Marlins to spend recklessly and or to trade away all their prospects for aging veterans you are free to keep praying.

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1 minute ago, SilverBullet said:

We all want this. But this team, and countless others, have shown there are huge problems with trying to get to this "the wrong way" and so I'm ok with trusting and hoping that they're on the right path to this goal.

Sometimes I feel like this point has been beaten to death and yet people still want the Marlins to go about things "the wrong way" when they've proven so often that "the wrong way" doesn't lead to anything good for this team. 

But hey whoever wants to keep praying for the Marlins to spend recklessly and or to trade away all their prospects for aging veterans you are free to keep praying.

I think that really minimized the point I was making and I don't want that to be attributed to me. I don't I need them to sign an aging vet and doing so does not equal winning - to me.

If I had to minimize my point...I'd like to see them win and I am not satisfied with accepting the good will that I am told I should have - just because I am told I should. I have expectations...because like Jeter...I want to win.

And I hope you don't misread my tone or anything...I know you want this as much as I.

Ps.  I am an atheist. I have no faith. 😩

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6 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

I 100% believe the Marlins EARNED their 2020 playoff spot, it was no fluke as some like to say... but it was definitely ahead of schedule and it was definitely helped by multiple other factors so I do think it was a case of exceeding expectations and shouldn't be what 2021 is compared to. 

I honestly believe the 2021 Marlins only have to be better than the 2019 Marlins. If so, things are looking good. If not then there's a big problem. So, no, the 2021 Marlins can not be expected to be a playoff team. I would think finishing at .500 or slightly better would be an excellent accomplishment for the 2021 Marlins.

I agree with this assessment.  I'd consider maintaining 2020's .500 record a success, given that it'll be over a 162-game season, and shows that 2020 wasn't a fluke.  I'd love more, obviously, but I think .500 is the floor of 2021 being a successful year.  Below that would be a disappointment.

5 hours ago, Photo-Realistic Billy said:

I agree. I think it's reasonable to hope and expect similar production to 2020 -- i.e. a .500 or near-.500 team that has a real chance to luck into a playoff spot. If -- IF -- a couple of the young fellers make big improvements in 2021, then things could go even better. I mean, imagine a scenario where Sanchez and Bleday both force their way onto the 2021 roster. That's probably a playoff team.

But on the other hand, if a few starters go down with injuries and the team has to call on some youngers guys who aren't ready yet, then it's not difficult to envision a 70-92 season, unfortunately. So breaking the bank on Springer or Yates (or Lindor, a few days ago) really doesn't make sense for a team teetering on the knife of .500. You want to push hard when you're teetering on .600 because even then, an injury bug is unlikely to drop you below .500.

Spending big now is the Mets/Phillies model. Staying the course for another year is the Rays model.

It depends on where they are on their spending timeline too, and 2020 obviously screwed that up.  I think an "early" signing can be justified if that guy can be a critical building block for the team moving forward as the team gets into contention.

Signing a guy to sign a guy, on the other hand, doesn't make sense.

2 hours ago, Major-Minor said:

I think that really minimized the point I was making and I don't want that to be attributed to me. I don't I need them to sign an aging vet and doing so does not equal winning - to me.

If I had to minimize my point...I'd like to see them win and I am not satisfied with accepting the good will that I am told I should have - just because I am told I should. I have expectations...because like Jeter...I want to win.

And I hope you don't misread my tone or anything...I know you want this as much as I.

Ps.  I am an atheist. I have no faith. 😩

 

I didn't know we all didn't want to win and want the team to fail.

 

We're just being realistic about expectations.  It's great to have a goal of winning the World Series this year.  But expecting them to win the World Series 100% this year isn't realistic.

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2 hours ago, Major-Minor said:

If I had to minimize my point...I'd like to see them win and I am not satisfied with accepting the good will that I am told I should have - just because I am told I should. I have expectations...because like Jeter...I want to win.

And I hope you don't misread my tone or anything...I know you want this as much as I.

I read ya, it's all good, no hard feelings, it's all in good conversation. I do get ya, there's nothing wrong with taking a wait and see attitude with this rebuild. 

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If this team try to work like the A's and the Rays that's because they have no choice and not because it's the best way to operate a MLB franchise, with no normal profit to the team you just couldn't hope the owners to keep investing their money that earned from other enterprise to the team, so what a GM can do is keep trading high paid players for the low paid ones, of course it's the only way to run a team under that condition. A's and Rays are really winning games in the last decade or so but their ballpark also keep empty during that span, maybe it's just a vicious cycle that the fans don't buy the tickets and the teams don't spend the money despite winning games. 

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Said the expectation, as a fan of course you want the team to win every game with the best players, but as a owner you just can't thinking and doing like a fan (that's just what Loria did ). Honestly, which fan doesn't want his team acting like the Mets and the Padres to acquire the good players to help the team to win the most games ? and which fan wasn't feel angry when their team losing games ? If to say a .500 record would be acceptable for the next season then why not just make some push to make it a more hopeful season ? maybe they would do it with the resource from the new TV deal (if they got it ).

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9 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

I 100% believe the Marlins EARNED their 2020 playoff spot, it was no fluke as some like to say... but it was definitely ahead of schedule and it was definitely helped by multiple other factors so I do think it was a case of exceeding expectations and shouldn't be what 2021 is compared to. 

I honestly believe the 2021 Marlins only have to be better than the 2019 Marlins. If so, things are looking good. If not then there's a big problem. So, no, the 2021 Marlins can not be expected to be a playoff team. I would think finishing at .500 or slightly better would be an excellent accomplishment for the 2021 Marlins.

Honestly, in the position of the team they won't told you the success of last season is exceeding expectations and thus the next season would still be a building process, they would say the goal is to keep the momentum from the last season and would do their best to improve the team to make it to the playoffs again in the next season, but it's just up to them to do it or not. 

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14 minutes ago, taiwanmarlin said:

Said the expectation, as a fan of course you want the team to win every game with the best players, but as a owner you just can't thinking and doing like a fan (that's just what Loria did ). Honestly, which fan doesn't want his team acting like the Mets and the Padres to acquire the good players to help the team to win the most games ? and which fan wasn't feel angry when their team losing games ? If to say a .500 record would be acceptable for the next season then why not just make some push to make it a more hopeful season ? maybe they would do it with the resource from the new TV deal (if they got it ).

I don't disagree.  But you don't also spend money just to spend money.  That's a recipe for disaster.

 

At this point, I'm not hopeful on the TV deal, given the lack of news of any progress.  Or if it gets done, not hopeful on the figure they're going to get.  I also wouldn't be surprised if they try to do something short term and try to get something better in a few years.  Not sure if that's even a thing in those types of negotiations, but with the cratering of tv contracts with "2020" complications on top of that, not hopeful.

 

I guess if there's any positive component to 2020 for the TV deal, it's that the team can argue that in the event of another truncated season, the network will still get eyeballs and revenue from games.  Conversely, if they don't get one done, the team loses out on that source of revenue completely in that event.

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7 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

I don't disagree.  But you don't also spend money just to spend money.  That's a recipe for disaster.

 

At this point, I'm not hopeful on the TV deal, given the lack of news of any progress.  Or if it gets done, not hopeful on the figure they're going to get.  I also wouldn't be surprised if they try to do something short term and try to get something better in a few years.  Not sure if that's even a thing in those types of negotiations, but with the cratering of tv contracts with "2020" complications on top of that, not hopeful.

 

I guess if there's any positive component to 2020 for the TV deal, it's that the team can argue that in the event of another truncated season, the network will still get eyeballs and revenue from games.  Conversely, if they don't get one done, the team loses out on that source of revenue completely in that event.

Maybe I think things too simple, but shouldn't the broadcast company be the biggest beneficiary from the rule of "no fans in the stands" for the four major professional sports leagues in the 2020 or maybe 2021? people would only watching the games through the broadcast and not in the stadium. 

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29 minutes ago, taiwanmarlin said:

Maybe I think things too simple, but shouldn't the broadcast company be the biggest beneficiary from the rule of "no fans in the stands" for the four major professional sports leagues in the 2020 or maybe 2021? people would only watching the games through the broadcast and not in the stadium. 

You would think so. Sports TV ratings should have skyrocketed in 2020 but I have no clue if they did or not.

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1 hour ago, taiwanmarlin said:

If to say a .500 record would be acceptable for the next season then why not just make some push to make it a more hopeful season ? 

 

59 minutes ago, taiwanmarlin said:

Honestly, in the position of the team they would say the goal is to keep the momentum from the last season and would do their best to improve the team to make it to the playoffs again in the next season, but it's just up to them to do it or not. 

You do have a point with both of these.

.500 would ultimately be acceptable for the 2021 Marlins but a team shouldn't specifically aim for .500 so then maybe trying for one more solid addition to get past .500 would be a fair ask.

And yes even if 2020 was a case of exceeding expectations they did still make the playoffs and they can't act like they aren't trying to get back to the playoffs again in 2021 so they do have to show the fanbase a genuine effort in keeping that 2020 momentum going. So yeah blatantly accepting going backwards in 2021 would be the wrong message to send.

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One more under the headline of "nobody wants to hear this" but Kim Ng did say recently that considering how many prospects are close to making the jump to the majors the upgrades to the team might just be to have even one or two of those guys contribute to the MLB team.

Basically she meant that if the Marlins keep the same team they have today and then say Edward Cabrera jumps into the rotation and Bleday cracks the starting lineup right there could be your two big upgrades. 

It's a fair point and that might be the route they ultimately take, which should actually set them up quite well for 2022.

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13 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

One more under the headline of "nobody wants to hear this" but Kim Ng did say recently that considering how many prospects are close to making the jump to the majors the upgrades to the team might just be to have even one or two of those guys contribute to the MLB team.

Basically she meant that if the Marlins keep the same team they have today and then say Edward Cabrera jumps into the rotation and Bleday cracks the starting lineup right there could be your two big upgrades. 

It's a fair point and that might be the route they ultimately take, which should actually set them up quite well for 2022.

Whatever, it's up to them and the fans would response to it. What the Mutts do after their failure 2020 season and what the Marlins do after their success 2020 season.

Edited by taiwanmarlin
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12 minutes ago, taiwanmarlin said:

What the Mutts do after their failure 2020 season and what the Marlins do after their success 2020 season.

This is because the Marlins are on the way up and the Mets were spiraling out of control on the way down. The Mets needed to do more. 

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18 hours ago, rmc523 said:

I didn't know we all didn't want to win and want the team to fail.

 

We're just being realistic about expectations.  It's great to have a goal of winning the World Series this year.  But expecting them to win the World Series 100% this year isn't realistic.

You are being obtuse. 

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13 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

This is because the Marlins are on the way up and the Mets were spiraling out of control on the way down. The Mets needed to do more. 

That's a very good point. Y'all need to keep in mind the Marlins minor league system is pretty much better than it's ever been. Even back when Miguel Cabrera and them were in the minors, that was a very top heavy system. But this current group of fellas has talent stretching from Triple-A to the DSL. 

And what that means is that meaningful reinforcements will be arriving via minor league talent. It's not something we're accustomed to as Marlins fans. But Rays, Yankees, and Dodgers fans are used to a new face coming up and blasting dingers or tossing smoke.

The Mets haven't got that, not even foundations for that, so they are trying to trying to bandaid with free agency and trades. And history suggests the strong minors approach is the long-term best approach. The Marlins are almost at that point, almost about to be over-stuffed on MLB-calibur players.

I mean, imagine if both Brinson and Mags take another step forward this year -- not to All-Star levels or nothing, but solid, everyday MLB players. Meanwhile Triple-A will have Bleday, Encarnación, Harrison, and probably even the forgotten guy, former first-rounder Brian Miller.

Folks, we shouldn't be stressing about free agency. Just between the Marlins and the Jumbo Shrimp, we might be dealing with an outfield logjam. We might want to be worrying about that!

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On 1/8/2021 at 11:27 AM, SilverBullet said:

Tbh nobody wants to hear this but the Marlins don't have to add much this offseason besides a few complimentary parts. This team is still building itself up but it's not like they're a piece or two away from perennial contention. They still could go into 2021 evaluating the pieces they have and then look to make a more serious move going into 2022. 

Two Pitchers away !!!!! which part you don't get ?

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