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9/2 Postgame


taiwanmarlin
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1 hour ago, taiwanmarlin said:

Why not !? it's much more worth seeing than her team's game …

Looks like ol' Bobby deleted the tweet. However, this is not improving my view of Ng. I understand people have lives and want to do other things besides their job but optically the fans aren't going to see this favorably. Especially since many of us have been frustrated this whole season as to the rationale of moves, or lack thereof.

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8 minutes ago, QbanCastillo said:

Looks like ol' Bobby deleted the tweet. However, this is not improving my view of Ng. I understand people have lives and want to do other things besides their job but optically the fans aren't going to see this favorably. Especially since many of us have been frustrated this whole season as to the rationale of moves, or lack thereof.

Ng asks him to delete it ? maybe she wants to use the swings of the tennis player to help our hitters. 

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She's rebuilding the organization from the ground up.  It is going to take some time to see the fruits of our labor.  Scouting, drafting, international signings: they are all light years better than when the other owners had the team and her and the rest of the front office are a big part of that.

I understand the lack of patience but we are building something lasting here and it will take a while.  I would argue that we didn't get rid of enough dead weight and the ones we did were leveraged for some players with huge upsides.  Not all are going to be successes.

We are trying to find the next Juan Soto, Fernando Tatis Jr., Wander Franco.  We had a zero shot at getting anyone like that in the past.  Now that we are investing the necessary resources, there is a chance we could find that franchise changer.  That is, if we haven't already found him.

 

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5 minutes ago, TheMarlinsProject said:

She's rebuilding the organization from the ground up.

I thought that rebuild began in 2018, why is the clock being reset? Last I checked, we already had plenty of talent before she came on board.

Are you Bruce Sherman?

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5 hours ago, TheMarlinsProject said:

We are trying to find the next Juan Soto, Fernando Tatis Jr., Wander Franco.  We had a zero shot at getting anyone like that in the past.  Now that we are investing the necessary resources, there is a chance we could find that franchise changer.

I'm gonna push back on this. Pre-Loria regime there was Cabrera, and during Loria we had Stanton (although he hasn't turned out that way due to injuries and strikeouts, he was still touted and seen as such talent). 

That doesn't mean I'm saying they can't find a talent like that with this ownership, but the point of frustration for many here is that there's GM-type stuff that she should have been able to do properly (such as roster management that doesn't leave the team without reinforcements) that if she has a big say so in it (along with the rest of the decision-making "team") then she's doing it badly. Her, the decision-making team, or both. She'll get the most criticism, however, due to her role (besides Jeter).

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I don't want this to sound like an automatic free pass for Kim Ng for 2021 but I'd be more alarmed if she has a bad 2nd season here than to worry about her first season. 

Like, if she went into 2021 really thinking she put together a good team that's one thing but then seeing it fall apart is now more reason for her to make 2022 different. 

I'm thinking like a boxer having a bad first round because of a strategy that backfired. How the boxer adjusts in round 2 becomes critical. If they go into round 2 with the same strategy as round 1 then there's a serious problem. But if that boxer adjusts and does better in round 2 then they're on the right track. 

Long story short: how Ng responds after the 2021 season is critical. 

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I agree with a lot of you guys that Mattingly is not a good manager. But at the same time, every time we play the Phillies and beat them, their fanbase completely pins it on their manager. Kapler has looked good in San Fran, so maybe he wasn't so bad after all. Maybe the Phillies players were just overrated. The point I am getting to is, Mattingly might not be a good manager, but can we expect much better from a different guy given our players?

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19 hours ago, TheMarlinsProject said:

She's rebuilding the organization from the ground up.  It is going to take some time to see the fruits of our labor.  Scouting, drafting, international signings: they are all light years better than when the other owners had the team and her and the rest of the front office are a big part of that.

I understand the lack of patience but we are building something lasting here and it will take a while.  I would argue that we didn't get rid of enough dead weight and the ones we did were leveraged for some players with huge upsides.  Not all are going to be successes.

We are trying to find the next Juan Soto, Fernando Tatis Jr., Wander Franco.  We had a zero shot at getting anyone like that in the past.  Now that we are investing the necessary resources, there is a chance we could find that franchise changer.  That is, if we haven't already found him.

 

No, she's not.  That started in '18 under Hill when Jeter & co took over.  She is NOT starting from the ground floor here.

 

We're 4+ years into this now, and I think most of us recognize that the "behind the scenes"/non ML side has improved quite a bit, but it's time to put up or shut up now.

 

14 hours ago, QbanCastillo said:

I'm gonna push back on this. Pre-Loria regime there was Cabrera, and during Loria we had Stanton (although he hasn't turned out that way due to injuries and strikeouts, he was still touted and seen as such talent). 

That doesn't mean I'm saying they can't find a talent like that with this ownership, but the point of frustration for many here is that there's GM-type stuff that she should have been able to do properly (such as roster management that doesn't leave the team without reinforcements) that if she has a big say so in it (along with the rest of the decision-making "team") then she's doing it badly. Her, the decision-making team, or both. She'll get the most criticism, however, due to her role (besides Jeter).

 

Agree with this line of thinking.

 

13 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

I don't want this to sound like an automatic free pass for Kim Ng for 2021 but I'd be more alarmed if she has a bad 2nd season here than to worry about her first season. 

Like, if she went into 2021 really thinking she put together a good team that's one thing but then seeing it fall apart is now more reason for her to make 2022 different. 

I'm thinking like a boxer having a bad first round because of a strategy that backfired. How the boxer adjusts in round 2 becomes critical. If they go into round 2 with the same strategy as round 1 then there's a serious problem. But if that boxer adjusts and does better in round 2 then they're on the right track. 

Long story short: how Ng responds after the 2021 season is critical. 

 

Yeah, I'll understand there's a learning curve to a new-to-the-position GM - the seeming "hesitation" to call up help or whatnot compared to when Hill was here last year seems to point to the idea that Ng/the GM does have some sort of autonomy there.

But we absolutely need to see changes made in 22 to the decision making/speed with which moves are made and whatnot.  A team trying to compete can't go weeks/months on end without reinforcements.

 

4 hours ago, FishFan95 said:

I agree with a lot of you guys that Mattingly is not a good manager. But at the same time, every time we play the Phillies and beat them, their fanbase completely pins it on their manager. Kapler has looked good in San Fran, so maybe he wasn't so bad after all. Maybe the Phillies players were just overrated. The point I am getting to is, Mattingly might not be a good manager, but can we expect much better from a different guy given our players?

 

I get what you're saying, and agree to a point - but Mattingly's bullpen management is atrocious.

I also think it's gotten to a point where he's lost the clubhouse - maybe not in a camaraderie/supporting each other sense, but in the sense that they've given up kind of thing - no energy, no feeling that they can win on a daily basis - things that come from Don throwing in the towel early, bad moves, etc.

I just think it's time for a new voice in the dugout.

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1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

I get what you're saying, and agree to a point - but Mattingly's bullpen management is atrocious.

I also think it's gotten to a point where he's lost the clubhouse - maybe not in a camaraderie/supporting each other sense, but in the sense that they've given up kind of thing - no energy, no feeling that they can win on a daily basis - things that come from Don throwing in the towel early, bad moves, etc.

I just think it's time for a new voice in the dugout.

Still think that Mattingly is not the right fit, but would anyone have been a good enough fit to get us a winning season this year? As for the team, they still look like they can win at home at least. Good chance we have a winning record at home when all is said and done. They have been lost on the road though.

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Good points here.  I will agree that she is not the start of the rebuilding process.  Some of you pointed that out and we have made some really good strides in that direction.  I also get the frustration that it is not showing up on the big league level.  But believe me it is coming.

The focus should be on continuing that process and refining it.  That is the role that Ng was brought in to do.  

Our scouting and drafting has improved leaps and bounds since the ownership change.  That is a very good thing.

And where we once basically given up on international players, we have laid a foundation for success where we will have a shot at finding that next franchise-changer whether it's Soto, Franco, Tatis Jr., or Cabrera (give me all of them please).

One only needs to compare the drafts and international signings from the five years prior to ownership change to see a huge difference.  

Appreciate the thoughts, hopefully we are all in agreement that we all ultimately want to see the Marlins succeed.

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On 9/5/2021 at 9:03 AM, FishFan95 said:

I agree with a lot of you guys that Mattingly is not a good manager. But at the same time, every time we play the Phillies and beat them, their fanbase completely pins it on their manager. Kapler has looked good in San Fran, so maybe he wasn't so bad after all. Maybe the Phillies players were just overrated. The point I am getting to is, Mattingly might not be a good manager, but can we expect much better from a different guy given our players?

You definitely have a point but I think this season there's been quite a few games where losses could be pinned on specific managerial decisions. 

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23 hours ago, FishFan95 said:

Still think that Mattingly is not the right fit, but would anyone have been a good enough fit to get us a winning season this year?

You do have a point in that this season is probably more about bad roster construction than bad on field managing. 

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22 hours ago, TheMarlinsProject said:

Good points here.  I will agree that she is not the start of the rebuilding process.  Some of you pointed that out and we have made some really good strides in that direction.  I also get the frustration that it is not showing up on the big league level.  But believe me it is coming.

The focus should be on continuing that process and refining it.  That is the role that Ng was brought in to do.  

Our scouting and drafting has improved leaps and bounds since the ownership change.  That is a very good thing.

And where we once basically given up on international players, we have laid a foundation for success where we will have a shot at finding that next franchise-changer whether it's Soto, Franco, Tatis Jr., or Cabrera (give me all of them please).

One only needs to compare the drafts and international signings from the five years prior to ownership change to see a huge difference.  

Appreciate the thoughts, hopefully we are all in agreement that we all ultimately want to see the Marlins succeed.

You shouldn't have said that Kim was starting from the ground up but you are right in the idea that this entire thing has to be seen as process that continues to move forward. 

I do think the team is now due for the next big step forward though. On field results at the MLB level need to start showing almost immediately. We cannot afford to go backwards at this point. 

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You know what would be a good thing for the front office to ask and have to answer heading into 2022:

Which year was the fluke, 2020 or 2021?

Meaning was the 2020 playoff berth a one off or is the rebuild as a whole still on the right track and the 2021 season was the outlier? 

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On 9/5/2021 at 3:20 PM, FishFan95 said:

Still think that Mattingly is not the right fit, but would anyone have been a good enough fit to get us a winning season this year? As for the team, they still look like they can win at home at least. Good chance we have a winning record at home when all is said and done. They have been lost on the road though.

Yeah, that's fair.  I do agree that the FO threw the team under the bus early in the season and left them without help needed to keep winning.  But as @SilverBullet pointed out, there are a lot of losses that can be pinned on specific moves or lack of moves that Mattingly has made......obviously that can be said of all managers, but I feel like Mattingly has more than others.

23 hours ago, TheMarlinsProject said:

Good points here.  I will agree that she is not the start of the rebuilding process.  Some of you pointed that out and we have made some really good strides in that direction.  I also get the frustration that it is not showing up on the big league level.  But believe me it is coming.

The focus should be on continuing that process and refining it.  That is the role that Ng was brought in to do.  

Our scouting and drafting has improved leaps and bounds since the ownership change.  That is a very good thing.

And where we once basically given up on international players, we have laid a foundation for success where we will have a shot at finding that next franchise-changer whether it's Soto, Franco, Tatis Jr., or Cabrera (give me all of them please).

One only needs to compare the drafts and international signings from the five years prior to ownership change to see a huge difference.  

Appreciate the thoughts, hopefully we are all in agreement that we all ultimately want to see the Marlins succeed.

I don't think anyone is saying blow up the process.  But they need to take that next step now.

28 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

You know what would be a good thing for the front office to ask and have to answer heading into 2022:

Which year was the fluke, 2020 or 2021?

Meaning was the 2020 playoff berth a one off or is the rebuild as a whole still on the right track and the 2021 season was the outlier? 

I do truly believe that the team is better than their record has shown this season.  At the same time, I also think they were helped by the short season and DH taking some pitching decisions out of Don's hands.  It'll be interesting to see how he does next year (presumably) with the DH if he is retained.

I'm definitely with you, they need to take that next step now.

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Short season or not, the Marlins won the games they needed to win in 2020 (which is why I don't consider their playoff berth a fluke) and in 2021 they've just blown sooooo many winnable games.

Yes the number of games is a factor but still, just taking it one game at a time, the 2020 Marlins knew how to win games, the 2021 Marlins are like experts at letting games slip away. 

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1. Marlins making the playoffs in 2020 was the worst thing for the organization's perception among fans.

2. This bad season in 2021 was just as likely as having a good season in 2021 after 2020.

3. Ng had a really good trade deadline overall.

4. Ng lead a pretty good draft overall.

5. I still believe Mattingly wont be manager long term and at some point Ng will put him out to pasture.  The upcoming labor situation is a large part of it I believe.

6. The upper level depth among position players especially heading into this season was alarmingly BAD, this is both a reflection on Loria and on Jeter just not paying attention when he first arrived to correct this.

7. Ng had no real actual budget to acquire that depth in 2021.

8. Ng is having to deal with the stubborness of Gary Denbo/Derek Jeter and their refusal to admit they have been wrong at times.

9. While there have been some questionable roster moves, Ng has made, a lot of it was due to her hands essentially being tied by other factors.

 

All this being said, I think she will be fine and will quickly showcase why she is such a talent in MLB.

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1 hour ago, Das Texan said:

1. Marlins making the playoffs in 2020 was the worst thing for the organization's perception among fans.

2. This bad season in 2021 was just as likely as having a good season in 2021 after 2020.

3. Ng had a really good trade deadline overall.

4. Ng lead a pretty good draft overall.

5. I still believe Mattingly wont be manager long term and at some point Ng will put him out to pasture.  The upcoming labor situation is a large part of it I believe.

6. The upper level depth among position players especially heading into this season was alarmingly BAD, this is both a reflection on Loria and on Jeter just not paying attention when he first arrived to correct this.

7. Ng had no real actual budget to acquire that depth in 2021.

8. Ng is having to deal with the stubborness of Gary Denbo/Derek Jeter and their refusal to admit they have been wrong at times.

9. While there have been some questionable roster moves, Ng has made, a lot of it was due to her hands essentially being tied by other factors.

 

All this being said, I think she will be fine and will quickly showcase why she is such a talent in MLB.

I believe @Das Texan is Ng.

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