Admin Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 It does. Also, consider the Marlins were on a spending binge with back loaded contracts. The only reason he didn't sign was because of Boras. Your point is nothing more than opinion or a partial fact at best. Sent from my SM-G900T using MarlinsBaseball.com mobile app Ok, so how is your statement about it being "because of Boras" not more than opinion or partial fact? Ultimately the agent is there to serve the client. The fact that Jose selected and stayed with Boras is a piece of evidence itself of Jose's true intentions. I'm sure Boras kept him somewhat tight-lipped but Jose's public statements about the prospect of staying in Miami long term were typically quite mum and lacked any kind of reassurance. The Marlins made it publicly obvious that they were pessimistic about the odds of signing Jose long term. There were was nothing in the media suggesting that Jose was making any sort of effort to work out some kind of deal with the Marlins that would ensure that he could stay and remain a fixture of the Miami community. Everything that became known publicly was about the almighty dollar and the fact that the Marlins had too few of them. What evidence do you have that Jose was making a real effort to work out a deal with the Marlins to ensure that the could stay put? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverBullet Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 @SilverBullet1929 Question Jose pitched 76 games for the Marlins over 4 seasons. Over that period he was arguably one of the best pitchers in MLB. Do you think he should be a realistic candidate for the MLB HOF? Why or why not? No because he doesn't have the longevity/tenure for the hall of fame, which is the elite of the elite. Many excellent players don't ever get into the hall of fame. I understand that. Why do you ask because I'm sure you had a reason for asking that question to me specifically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 No because he doesn't have the longevity/tenure for the hall of fame, which is the elite of the elite. Many excellent players don't ever get into the hall of fame. I understand that. Why do you ask because I'm sure you had a reason for asking that question to me specifically? Because you don't think that the question of HOF worthiness with respect to longevity/tenure is somewhat related to statue or retired number worthiness? Jose's case might be a little atypical and unprecedented but I really cannot think of another instance of an MLB player being enshrined so heavily after such a short career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverBullet Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Because you don't think that the question of HOF worthiness with respect to longevity/tenure is somewhat related to statue or retired number worthiness? Jose's case might be a little atypical and unprecedented but I really cannot think of another instance of an MLB player being enshrined so heavily after such a short career. No they're not the same. The HOF is the elite of the elite. Nobody has said that him getting a statue or number retirement is on the same level of going into the HOF. And for the record, I haven't said whether or I agree with the statue or not. I just don't see a problem with the Marlins honoring him. I don't see any of this as him being "enshrined." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdg210 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Ok, so how is your statement about it being "because of Boras" not more than opinion or partial fact? Ultimately the agent is there to serve the client. The fact that Jose selected and stayed with Boras is a piece of evidence itself of Jose's true intentions. I'm sure Boras kept him somewhat tight-lipped but Jose's public statements about the prospect of staying in Miami long term were typically quite mum and lacked any kind of reassurance. The Marlins made it publicly obvious that they were pessimistic about the odds of signing Jose long term. There were was nothing in the media suggesting that Jose was making any sort of effort to work out some kind of deal with the Marlins that would ensure that he could stay and remain a fixture of the Miami community. Everything that became known publicly was about the almighty dollar and the fact that the Marlins had too few of them. What evidence do you have that Jose was making a real effort to work out a deal with the Marlins to ensure that the could stay put? Regarding Boras, see my previous post. As to the rest of your response, it is nothing more than vague explanations corroborated by no evidence. Clearly you have not provided substantive proof because you have none. I need not have to provide proof of my statement because it is your statement at issue. Sent from my SM-G900T using MarlinsBaseball.com mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Sure, the HOF is the elite of the elite, but getting a statue erecting in a player's honor is still a big fucking deal. That's why I ask if there is any precedence for someone with Jose's short tenure being enshrined in such a fashion. Well, your comments here sure seem to suggest that you support a statue. Ultimate I certainly think that he should be "honored" but the Marlins have already done plenty in that regard. A statue or a retired number is total overkill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Regarding Boras, see my previous post. As to the rest of your response, it is nothing more than vague explanations corroborated by no evidence. Clearly you have not provided substantive proof because you have none. I need not have to provide proof of my statement because it is your statement at issue. Sent from my SM-G900T using MarlinsBaseball.com mobile app Lol what proof have you provided to back up your Boras claim? For you to say with such confidence that Jose's chances of staying in Miami long term are low "because of Boras" are absolutely questionable and require cold hard proof. You don't get off the hook that easy. Back up what you say. Otherwise, I think I've given a pretty accurate picture of what the media portrayed Jose's prospects of staying in Miami to be. What claims have I made that go against the public statements made by the Marlins, Jose, or the general assessment of the situation by commentators with insider info on negotiations? It seems to be pretty common knowledge within the sports community that Jose was very close to being out the door, even if you refuse to acknowledge it or shove your head in the sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Bottom line is that if you are going to sit there and stay that the Jose's hands were forced mostly by Scott Boras, you need to back that up. Instead of cowardly saying that it isn't "at issue." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverBullet Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Well, your comments here sure seem to suggest that you support a statue. I'm not sure if I support the statue because legally he was responsible for the death of two other people. While I love and miss Jose, erecting the statue of someone who is, by legal standards, criminally responsible for the deaths of two others is a bit odd and could bring some public backlash. Besides that part, I love the idea of the statue because, as a fan, to me Jose was just awesome and what happened was sad so why not honor him. Problem is that the legal thing is so huge that I haven't decided if I truly want the statue. So there are some ways I support it and some ways I don't so that may have influenced some of my comments in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverBullet Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 You specifically brought up him not getting the statue because he didn't play long and even mentioned Volstad and Olsen as players who played more games than him. Whether I want the statue or not, in that I disagree with you. I can debate that part without agreeing to want the statue or not. Maybe that caused confusion with you since I debated you on that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 I'm not sure if I support the statue because legally he was responsible for the death of two other people. While I love and miss Jose, erecting the statue of someone who is, by legal standards, criminally responsible for the deaths of two others is a bit odd and could bring some public backlash. Besides that part, I love the idea of the statue because, as a fan, to me Jose was just awesome and what happened was sad so why not honor him. Problem is that the legal thing is so huge that I haven't decided if I truly want the statue. So there are some ways I support it and some ways I don't so that may have influenced some of my comments in this thread. I'm going to be perfectly honest and say I don't place that much emphasis on the circumstances surrounding his death or the bad mistakes he made. He just wasn't just a Marlin very long and had a marginal impact on the franchise because of his short tenure in Miami. I think you and some people in this thread have some kind of knee-jerk emotional reactions about Jose's skill and personality, but a several years down the road, I think that the status decision will be second guessed for the reasons I (and others) have been pointing towards in this thread. Plenty of players play the game with heart and passion, but that's not enough to warrant a statue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverBullet Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 But his death does play a big part in this because it's the only reason we're even having this debate. Of course plenty of players play with heart and passion but how many of them die at 24 years old in a tragedy? You can't just look at "the back of his baseball card" to determine whether or not he deserves a statue. It's more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 But his death does play a big part in this because it's the only reason we're even having this debate. Of course plenty of players play with heart and passion but how many of them die at 24 years old in a tragedy? You can't just look at "the back of his baseball card" to determine whether or not he deserves a statue. It's more than that. Of course, it's more than that. But dying at 24 is a tragedy no matter what factors led to his death. The drug and alcohol stuff doesn't really factor in much for me. It's more that I don't think that his impact on the franchise is remotely large enough to warrant this kind of enshrinement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverBullet Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Of course, it's more than that. But dying at 24 is a tragedy no matter what factors led to his death. The drug and alcohol stuff doesn't really factor in much for me. It's more that I don't think that his impact on the franchise is remotely large enough to warrant this kind of enshrinement. So it's the statue specifically for you that seems to mean too much? Like would you be ok with a big mural type painting somewhere in the ballpark as someone suggested? Or just generally something less than a statue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 I'm opposed to a statue and opposed to retiring the number. Something smaller in the ballpark would be fine. Maybe a mural would be fine depending on size and location. Doing something to "honor" him is fine, but the Marlins have been going way overboard with some of the stuff they've been proposing. Erick was so on point. He was a great player for a couple of seasons. The Marlins did a ton of stuff already. Let's just put everything to bed and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverBullet Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 I'm opposed to a statue and opposed to retiring the number. Something smaller in the ballpark would be fine. Maybe a mural would be fine depending on size and location.Doing something to "honor" him is fine, but the Marlins have been going way overboard with some of the stuff they've been proposing. Erick was so on point. He was a great player for a couple of seasons. The Marlins did a ton of stuff already. Let's just put everything to bed and move on. Most cordial conversation I've ever had with you. The Marlins must be making the playoffs this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Also, the reason why the Marlins have not made the playoffs since 2003 (with a team mostly constructed by Dave Dombrowski) is because Loria, Samson, Hill, Beinfest, et al seem to suck at long term planning and thinking. They are always so near-sighted on the immediate present and getting instant rewards at the expense of the future. This enshrinement talk is no exception. I do sincerely think that people walking around the plaza 20 years from now would be perplexed when encountering some kind of bronze statue of Jose Fernandez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Beinfest Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 I'm indifferent. From a league sense, it's acknowledging a potential to be one of the greatest cut short. From a Marlins perspective, no real reason for a statue. Details are grey. He will be missed dearly, but I'm wouldn't really have an opinion -- statue or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamibaseball Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 i think should build it he help team win games but i didn't know he would take drug and drink get drunk i do blame other guys that i bet were drunk too their want bar before going out no one could drive it back all were likely drunk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdg210 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Bottom line is that if you are going to sit there and stay that the Jose's hands were forced mostly by Scott Boras, you need to back that up. Instead of cowardly saying that it isn't "at issue." You want to keep putting words in my mouth go ahead. It's false just like your version of the truth. For the record, the cowardly words or acts or coming from you. Can't defend a position and when you get called out, you whine. Sent from my SM-G900T using MarlinsBaseball.com mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 You want to keep putting words in my mouth go ahead. It's false just like your version of the truth. For the record, the cowardly words or acts or coming from you. Can't defend a position and when you get called out, you whine. Sent from my SM-G900T using MarlinsBaseball.com mobile app So you aren't going to back that up then I take it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdg210 Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Lol what proof have you provided to back up your Boras claim? For you to say with such confidence that Jose's chances of staying in Miami long term are low "because of Boras" are absolutely questionable and require cold hard proof. You don't get off the hook that easy. Back up what you say. Otherwise, I think I've given a pretty accurate picture of what the media portrayed Jose's prospects of staying in Miami to be. What claims have I made that go against the public statements made by the Marlins, Jose, or the general assessment of the situation by commentators with insider info on negotiations? It seems to be pretty common knowledge within the sports community that Jose was very close to being out the door, even if you refuse to acknowledge it or shove your head in the sand. Again your version, your opinion supported by nothing more than. Baseless, just like your statement. If your job is analyzing general assessments, you should look for a new line of work. Sent from my SM-G900T using MarlinsBaseball.com mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Again your version, your opinion supported by nothing more than. Baseless, just like your statement. If your job is analyzing general assessments, you should look for a new line of work. Sent from my SM-G900T using MarlinsBaseball.com mobile app It's based on the Marlins saying last summer that they were pessimistic that they would extend Jose on account of him wanting at least $30 million/year. It's based on them saying that Jose closed negotiations (temporarily) after rejecting an extension offer they made after he was sidelined with TSJ. Time after time these roadblocks have entered the media sphere about Jose basically being a hard negotiator and looking for a big payday. The truth is out there, you just refuse to believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poptart Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Absolutely not. I can't believe I just made a tiebreaking vote. He was incredible. He would have been a hall of famer. He also killed two people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legacyofCangelosi Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 To the people who anti-statues. I don't mean anti JDF statue but just generally. Sports teams do it all the time usually for long term players or coaches that had history with a team. Gators have spurrier. Joe Robbie has Marino and Shula. Dodger stadium has lasorda. I don't remember but I'm sure Jackie Robison has one somewhere. Casey at bat etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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