1 minute ago, Rydawg said:

I'd take Laureano in a heartbeat as a FA and move Sanchez to a corner spot.  My problem isn't with the player or wishing to keep Sanchez in CF.  My problem is having to gut the farm system when we have at minimum, a short term solution in Sanchez.  

I'm all for upgrading the roster and getting better.  However, with our financial constraints,  our best approach for sustainable success is to keep the farm system churning out players.  

Wouldn't gut the farm. They are loaded (and have excellent 2022 picks coming).

They have no CF coming so they'll have to get one anyways so assets must be spent

Financial constraints is not an argument to me when payroll is so laughably low for "four" years and you got the TV and naming deals (plus owner's did well in CBA). You could make this case if they are at $110m and we're asking to go to $130m. Not $75m to anything lower than $100m.

Back to it wouldn't gut the farm and the entire team is controlled so they are setup to be sustainable getting controlled players for..... controlled minor leaguers.

 

TLDR - They are assholes and need to get a CF (or other epic position upgrade)

 

9 hours ago, Rydawg said:

I'd take Laureano in a heartbeat as a FA and move Sanchez to a corner spot.  My problem isn't with the player or wishing to keep Sanchez in CF.  My problem is having to gut the farm system when we have at minimum, a short term solution in Sanchez.  

I'm all for upgrading the roster and getting better.  However, with our financial constraints,  our best approach for sustainable success is to keep the farm system churning out players.  

I get what you’re saying, but there are 2 issues with your first paragraph:

(1) There’s nothing indicating it will be any easier (ie cheaper and/or lesser prospect quality) in the future to get a good CF via free agency or trade. Plus, an upgraded CF could get this team to the playoffs, which would be huge for the long-term value and following of the franchise, it seems like it would be financially-savvy to go for it.

(2) Baseball isn’t about having a “solution” at each position; it’s about maximizing overall value/production.

To dramaticize the point:

Would you rather have 7 Mike Trouts + 1 Alfredo Amezaga, or would you rather have 8 Joey Wendles? You could say the latter has more “solutions” (ie 8/8) than the former (ie 7/8), but I’d take the former in a heartbeat.

Put another way, if you had a 2 WAR player at each position, AKA an average starter by WAR’s design, the position players have 16 WAR. If you had a 4 WAR player at 5 positions, and a -1 WAR AKA below-replacement level player at the other 3 positions, you’d have 17 WAR, meaning you should take the latter squad, even though it missing 3 “solutions,” while the other isn’t missing any.

By the way, these examples also drive home what I claimed above, that it’s harder to get to those higher team WAR numbers. That’s because they tend to require star/superstar players, and there just aren’t so many of them. And that it turn implies/explains why one player alone could earn almost half as much as our entire roster — even though that player will be worth 5-10 WAR while our whole roster could be worth 40 or 50 WAR. Those stars are necessary, and so they are expensive. Same logic as to why Quarterbacks get insane salaries, while a top-end ILB will get much less — no matter how good your roster construction is, you still probably need an elite QB to be a super bowl contender,  and there aren’t many of them.

The issue with a Laureano type is that we don’t need another “solid” offensive profile type. We don’t need another .750-800 ops hitter. Does it improve what we currently have? Sure. Does it genuinely get us closer to competing? Not really. We’d be giving up trade chips to get a player that doesn’t truly solve the issue. 
 

We need a true #3 hitter. An if not elite, all- star caliber bat that can be counted on every game. Not just when they get hot one week out of the month. 
 

Quite frankly, we’re really missing two of those guys to truly be competitive, but I’d settle for just one. Why trade a Burdick, Eder, Salas for another solid player, when those pieces could be used (in addition to other blue chip guys) to acquire a true solution. 
 

Setting aside Jesus Sanchez and Jazz as we don’t know their full potential, we have a team full of 6-7 /platoon hitters on playoff rosters (Wendle, Garcia, Soler, Aguilar, Cooper, BA). It’s great to have that type of depth in the lineup and not be so top heavy. However, we’re missing that true middle of the order bat that changes the entire team offensively. Marte was the closest thing we’ve had recently. 

Im afraid this team needs to be stripped down again.

The lineup theyve assembled five years into this rebuild is downright embarrassing, possibly criminal.

Edited April 23, 20224 yr by jsprt14

26 minutes ago, jsprt14 said:

Im afraid this team needs to be stripped down again.

The lineup theyve assembled five years into this rebuild is downright embarrassing, possibly criminal.

What exactly could they strip down? Do you mean trading starting pitchers who are cost controlled for years to come? AKA the exact thing a team in their position should want to have?

On 4/23/2022 at 10:09 AM, marlins_09 said:

The issue with a Laureano type is that we don’t need another “solid” offensive profile type. We don’t need another .750-800 ops hitter. Does it improve what we currently have? Sure. Does it genuinely get us closer to competing? Not really. We’d be giving up trade chips to get a player that doesn’t truly solve the issue. 
 

We need a true #3 hitter. An if not elite, all- star caliber bat that can be counted on every game. Not just when they get hot one week out of the month. 
 

Quite frankly, we’re really missing two of those guys to truly be competitive, but I’d settle for just one. Why trade a Burdick, Eder, Salas for another solid player, when those pieces could be used (in addition to other blue chip guys) to acquire a true solution. 
 

Setting aside Jesus Sanchez and Jazz as we don’t know their full potential, we have a team full of 6-7 /platoon hitters on playoff rosters (Wendle, Garcia, Soler, Aguilar, Cooper, BA). It’s great to have that type of depth in the lineup and not be so top heavy. However, we’re missing that true middle of the order bat that changes the entire team offensively. Marte was the closest thing we’ve had recently. 

We truly needed Correa dropped on top of everything else they did.  I'd have been ok skipping out on a CF (full time Sanchez approach) had they dropped Correa on this roster.

On 4/23/2022 at 3:28 PM, jsprt14 said:

Im afraid this team needs to be stripped down again.

The lineup theyve assembled five years into this rebuild is downright embarrassing, possibly criminal.

This is an extreme viewpoint that doesn't make sense.

While clearly not ideal, there are ways to fix it without blowing everything up.

Edited April 25, 20224 yr by rmc523

next years UFA class looks pretty putrid for high end batters.  Ng needs to find some way to swing a trade for that heart of the order bat even if it means overpaying a bit.  I know they think Avi is "that guy" but he's not and never has been. 

3 hours ago, hovertical said:

next years UFA class looks pretty putrid for high end batters.  Ng needs to find some way to swing a trade for that heart of the order bat even if it means overpaying a bit.  I know they think Avi is "that guy" but he's not and never has been. 

If they think Avi is “that guy”, we’ve got bigger issues. I don’t think they truly believe Avi is that guy 

3 hours ago, marlins_09 said:

If they think Avi is “that guy”, we’ve got bigger issues. I don’t think they truly believe Avi is that guy 

Let’s hope not.

17 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Let’s hope not.

I mean they signed him for four years so I’m starting to thing they do.

1 hour ago, marlinsmaniac said:

I mean they signed him for four years so I’m starting to thing they do.

Yep. I think they really overvalued him. I'm not sure who they can trade for that would be a middle of the order big time bat. I guess they could revisit the Reynolds idea but I really don't see the pirates trading him now.

7 hours ago, hovertical said:

Yep. I think they really overvalued him. I'm not sure who they can trade for that would be a middle of the order big time bat. I guess they could revisit the Reynolds idea but I really don't see the pirates trading him now.

Yeah they definitely already missed the boat on that one till at least the deadline at which point it’ll be more expensive than it would have been this last offseason.  

But honestly, he wouldn’t have been enough anyway. The team needs two more Marte/Reynolds level guys plus a Correa kind of TRUE impact bat. Cause right now it’s hoping and praying on a given night that the hitters don’t each go 0-4 with 3K’s. There are no truly consistent on base threats or an Ice-in-the-veins slugging machine that comes through in the clutch. For all intents and purposes, it’s basically the same lineup that lost almost 100 games last season.

31 minutes ago, marlinsmaniac said:

Yeah they definitely already missed the boat on that one till at least the deadline at which point it’ll be more expensive than it would have been this last offseason.  

But honestly, he wouldn’t have been enough anyway. The team needs two more Marte/Reynolds level guys plus a Correa kind of TRUE impact bat. Cause right now it’s hoping and praying on a given night that the hitters don’t each go 0-4 with 3K’s. There are no truly consistent on base threats or an Ice-in-the-veins slugging machine that comes through in the clutch. For all intents and purposes, it’s basically the same lineup that lost almost 100 games last season.

Reynolds is a Correa level bat. You might be able to argue he's actually better than Correa even. I don't think they need 3 big time bats - two would be fantastic but a Reynolds plus a guy who just gets on base at a .350+ clip (doesn't need big power numbers) would also probably help them get to the playoffs

They wanted Avi as one piece of multiple additions, they don't think Avi is the guy.

Just now, SilverBullet said:

They wanted Avi as one piece of multiple additions, they don't think Avi is the guy.

ok Craig ❤️

1 minute ago, hovertical said:

ok Craig ❤️

After signing Avi they went after Marte, Soler, Schwarber, Castellanos, Laureano and Reynolds to varying degrees, probably others as well.

Has nothing to do with Mish to know that all of those things happened. If Avi was the guy they would have stopped at him.

if they could move on from Aguilar it might be interesting to see what the Reds would want for Votto.  I say this without looking to see if he has a NTC and also realizing they would probably be crucified by their fanbase for trading him but he fits the high obp% role for sure. He's far from the impact bat he used to be but dude can still get on base at a very high clip and could replace Aguilar at first.  Reds are clearly moving in the rebuild direction this year.  Not a bad idea - Votto is also a known quantity to the casual fan sector which would also appeal to the ignorant masses.

5 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

After signing Avi they went after Marte, Soler, Schwarber, Castellanos, Laureano and Reynolds to varying degrees, probably others as well.

Has nothing to do with Mish to know that all of those things happened. If Avi was the guy they would have stopped at him.

OK CRAIG ❤️ ❤️ ❤️

Edited April 26, 20224 yr by hovertical
love is all around

1 hour ago, hovertical said:

Reynolds is a Correa level bat. You might be able to argue he's actually better than Correa even. I don't think they need 3 big time bats - two would be fantastic but a Reynolds plus a guy who just gets on base at a .350+ clip (doesn't need big power numbers) would also probably help them get to the playoffs

Yes, they need 5-7 WAR depending on how many "breakouts" they get from everyone else. That's on top of replacing whoever on the team as replacing guys means you lose something, so maybe we just say 7+ WAR in improvements.

If they are serious, they'd do this:

Henry -> Better catcher who can hit lefties a bit. They should have just kept Alfaro.
Berti -> Any 2B/SS/3B infielder who can hit lefties at all
DLC -> Starting CF who hits lefties. His name is Ramon Laureano
Cooper/Aguilar - > Pure upgraded masher upgrade

They can do three of these things at the deadline provided they are healthy and going to contend, as there is plausible hope Cooper/Aguilar/Lewin/Burdick/Bleday get it going to provide this "upgrade" in house (I'm talking a career year for the vets or kids taking off like Sanchez/Jazz) and getting a guy like this at the deadline is likely not cost prohibitive, and the catcher/bench upgrade are not "that" important as long as they don't get into negative WAR territory...... but the CF upgrade needs to be immediate to put them in a better short and longterm position.

Reynolds would be great. Not the best defensively (Sanchez may be better!) but then at least they'd have 2 of them in case one gets hurt and deal with CF longterm in 2024. Laureano costs less (prospects and bucks) and hits lefties so he makes the most sense to me right now. They probably don't have to move Watson/Eury/Meyer/Cabrera for him and that's huge.

I agree 3 big bats is a stretch. I think 1 arguably big bat (Laureano - I say arguably because he has a lot of defensive value both in CF and trickle down to LF), 1 normal masher upgrade, and 2 bench veterans who hit lefties would pay huge dividends. Considering they are paying Aguilar and Berti over $8.5m, it really begs the question of why this didn't happen already as all of this was very very obvious, but we don't need to go down that rabbit hole of WTF are they doing.

If they’re not willing to part with the necessary pieces to get a middle of the order bat, they need to get more impactful platoon options at the key positions (1B, 3B/OF) 

1B: They need a lefty bat who can platoon and mash righties. Some guys on teams that are expected/could be sellers that fit this bill - Joey Votto, Josh Bell, Nathaniel Lowe, Carlos Santana, ****Lewin Diaz****

3B/OF: Same kind of deal. We need another lefty bat here who can mash righties. Wendle helps, but they need another guy here who can matchup vs tough righties. Potential platoon options: Tyler Naquin, Moustakas. Charlie Blackmon, Ian Happ 

 

You could likely acquire 2 of the above guys without parting with your blue chip prospects.
 

An Example vs RHP

1. L Jazz 2B 

2. L Votto 1B (Aguilar) 

3. L Sanchez CF

4. R Cooper DH

5. L Naquin LF (Soler) 

6. R Garcia RF 

7. L Wendle SS (Rojas) 

8. R Anderson 3B 

9. R Stallings C 

Bench: Aguilar, Soler/Garcia, Rojas, Henry/C 

 

Joey Votto isnt leaving Cincinnati to play for another organization not known as the Reds in MLB. 

37 minutes ago, marlins_09 said:

If they’re not willing to part with the necessary pieces to get a middle of the order bat, they need to get more impactful platoon options at the key positions (1B, 3B/OF) 

1B: They need a lefty bat who can platoon and mash righties. Some guys on teams that are expected/could be sellers that fit this bill - Joey Votto, Josh Bell, Nathaniel Lowe, Carlos Santana, ****Lewin Diaz****

3B/OF: Same kind of deal. We need another lefty bat here who can mash righties. Wendle helps, but they need another guy here who can matchup vs tough righties. Potential platoon options: Tyler Naquin, Moustakas. Charlie Blackmon, Ian Happ 

 

You could likely acquire 2 of the above guys without parting with your blue chip prospects.
 

An Example vs RHP

1. L Jazz 2B 

2. L Votto 1B (Aguilar) 

3. L Sanchez CF

4. R Cooper DH

5. L Naquin LF (Soler) 

6. R Garcia RF 

7. L Wendle SS (Rojas) 

8. R Anderson 3B 

9. R Stallings C 

Bench: Aguilar, Soler/Garcia, Rojas, Henry/C 

 

Disagree entirely. It's the opposite. They need guys who hit lefties far more.

This is good vs RHP

C - Stallings - great w/ defense. Hits righties enough
1B - Aguilar/Cooper - fine, could be a luxury upgrade
2B - Jazz - optimistically great
SS - Wendle (or take the defense with Rojas) - above average
3B - Anderson (or Wendle) - likely above average or fine. Play the hot one
LF - Jesus Sanchez - optimistically great
CF - A LONGTERM CF <--- This is an absolute need as soon as humanely possible
RF - Garcia - average when counting defense
DH - Soler/Aguilar/Cooper - average, with real upside w/ Soler2019/post-2021

That lineup bashes and is borderline elite defensively if the CF is Laureano (especially with Rojas in). Broken record folks!!!!

If you remove Laureano, you're just playing odd defense in the OF and Soler, Aguilar, and Cooper are all playing which is good at the plate. Just bad OF defense.
 

vs LHP

C - Stallings/Henry - both not great at the plate. A backup who hits lefties would be appreciated
1B - Aguilar/Cooper - fine, could be a luxury upgrade
2B - Jazz - optimistically fine but have to play him regardless
SS - Rojas - great w/ defense
3B - Anderson - OK or below average, bench improvement needed as mentioned in post above
LF - Sanchez  optimistically fine but have to play him regardless
CF - A LONGTERM CF <--- This is an absolute need as soon as humanely possible, especially versus LHP
RF - Garcia - great w/ defense
DH - Soler - above average with some real upside. See above

Here, they have lame options at C and 3B, and if no Laureano/CF, two OF spots have bad defense which hurts more with less offense all around. This is ignoring Jazz/Sanchez may have some troubles here and there, and 1B can be upgraded.

 

Big picture, these guys you have above aren't moving the needle very much against RHP with what they have. We're talking about an Aguilar/Cooper upgrade, and those two aren't bad on paper. They also all aren't lefty killers. I like Bell, but I'm not sure he is worth the price in prospects to upgrade Aguilar/Cooper. Lowe is a crapshoot just like Lewin. Mouse doesn't hit lefties. Votto makes over 1/4th the Marlins current payroll.

 

They need an every day CF, even better if it's a heavier lefty split (Laureano!!!!!), bench upgrade to Henry who hits lefties, bench upgrade to Berti who can steal time from Jazz/Anderson at 2B/3B versus lefties, and if they are really going for it, go get a masher to upgrade either Aguilar or Cooper.

 

This is like Trey Mancini (.899 OPS vs LHP last year, career .827 OPS).  Mancini does't kill you in the field at 1B (never send him to the OF!). He won't cost a lot as last year of deal.

 

13 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

Joey Votto isnt leaving Cincinnati to play for another organization not known as the Reds in MLB. 

Totally

9 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

Disagree entirely. It's the opposite. They need guys who hit lefties far more.

This is good vs RHP

C - Stallings - great w/ defense. Hits righties enough
1B - Aguilar/Cooper - fine, could be a luxury upgrade
2B - Jazz - optimistically great
SS - Wendle (or take the defense with Rojas) - above average
3B - Anderson (or Wendle) - likely above average or fine. Play the hot one
LF - Jesus Sanchez - optimistically great
CF - A LONGTERM CF <--- This is an absolute need as soon as humanely possible
RF - Garcia - average when counting defense
DH - Soler/Aguilar/Cooper - average, with real upside w/ Soler2019/post-2021

That lineup bashes and is borderline elite defensively if the CF is Laureano (especially with Rojas in). Broken record folks!!!!

If you remove Laureano, you're just playing odd defense in the OF and Soler, Aguilar, and Cooper are all playing which is good at the plate. Just bad OF defense.
 

vs LHP

C - Stallings/Henry - both not great at the plate. A backup who hits lefties would be appreciated
1B - Aguilar/Cooper - fine, could be a luxury upgrade
2B - Jazz - optimistically fine but have to play him regardless
SS - Rojas - great w/ defense
3B - Anderson - OK or below average, bench improvement needed as mentioned in post above
LF - Sanchez  optimistically fine but have to play him regardless
CF - A LONGTERM CF <--- This is an absolute need as soon as humanely possible, especially versus LHP
RF - Garcia - great w/ defense
DH - Soler - above average with some real upside. See above

Here, they have lame options at C and 3B, and if no Laureano/CF, two OF spots have bad defense which hurts more with less offense all around. This is ignoring Jazz/Sanchez may have some troubles here and there, and 1B can be upgraded.

 

Big picture, these guys you have above aren't moving the needle very much against RHP with what they have. We're talking about an Aguilar/Cooper upgrade, and those two aren't bad on paper. They also all aren't lefty killers. I like Bell, but I'm not sure he is worth the price in prospects to upgrade Aguilar/Cooper. Lowe is a crapshoot just like Lewin. Mouse doesn't hit lefties. Votto makes over 1/4th the Marlins current payroll.

 

They need an every day CF, even better if it's a heavier lefty split (Laureano!!!!!), bench upgrade to Henry who hits lefties, bench upgrade to Berti who can steal time from Jazz/Anderson at 2B/3B versus lefties, and if they are really going for it, go get a masher to upgrade either Aguilar or Cooper.

 

This is like Trey Mancini (.899 OPS vs LHP last year, career .827 OPS).  Mancini does't kill you in the field at 1B (never send him to the OF!). He won't cost a lot as last year of deal.

 

You lost me at needing guys who can hit lefties more than righties. We are righty heavy, with a lineup filled with guys who struggle massively against right handed breaking stuff (as evidenced tonight vs Gray).
 

We can roll out an almost exclusively right handed lineup if we want. Against righties, we’re rolling out Jazz and Jesus Sanchez who I love, but they’re 24 year olds. And Joey Wendle. Then a bunch of guys who are extremely swing and miss against same handed sliders/curveballs (Soler, Garcia, BA, etc.)

If you’re going to tell me this team doesn’t need a lefty bat, we’re never going to agree so better to leave it there

12 hours ago, marlins_09 said:

You lost me at needing guys who can hit lefties more than righties. We are righty heavy, with a lineup filled with guys who struggle massively against right handed breaking stuff (as evidenced tonight vs Gray).
 

We can roll out an almost exclusively right handed lineup if we want. Against righties, we’re rolling out Jazz and Jesus Sanchez who I love, but they’re 24 year olds. And Joey Wendle. Then a bunch of guys who are extremely swing and miss against same handed sliders/curveballs (Soler, Garcia, BA, etc.)

If you’re going to tell me this team doesn’t need a lefty bat, we’re never going to agree so better to leave it there

I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion. 

They have a strong starter vs RHP with who they have. Aguilar, Cooper, Garcia, and Soler all hit RHP fairly well (floor .775 OPS land) even if none are elite. Soler and Garcia do have the projection upside to be really good though.

The top 3 areas of improvement against RHP would be: (1) Getting a superior defensive option to Sanchez to play CF, who hits as well or better than one of Aguilar/Cooper (who go to the bench), which trickles down to improving LF defense (Sanchez over Soler), and DH (Soler nearly always over Aguilar/Cooper. Big potential upgrade here. Ramon Laureano fits this bill as a good defender and basically career .800 OPS vs RHP. (2) Since they can't really upgrade Stallings, Jazz, Sanchez, Garcia, and Soler for youth/financial reasons.... we're talking about upgrades to Aguilar/Cooper so both are on the bench (or traded) at 1B, or (3) upgrading Anderson with a stud 3B (Wendle plays SS here). # 3 passed as Correa/Bryant are not available, so what you are asking for here is getting an outright Aguilar/Cooper upgrade and making neither of them starters. Want to get a LH hitter to do this who rocks RHP? Sure go for it, but as mentioned above, what's the price in players and is it a real or nominal upgrade? Aguilar/Cooper are alright, and Moustakas isn't an upgrade just because he is a lefty. What's the list of names? Genuine question here.

So big picture, it's get an every day CF to hit RHP and one of Aguilar/Cooper/Soler/off days is on the bench versus RHP. Ramon Laureano. Broken record. A real luxury upgrade is ditching Aguilar for a guy who smokes RHP at 1B.

So then it's vs LHP and improvement areas are: (1) Every day CF. Badly needed. Don't need to keep beating the dead horse. This also helps Sanchez in a trickle down if he needs some days off on tough lefties and Soler spots in LF. (2) 3B, because Anderson/Wendle hit RHP much harder and they are basically playing just defense. This also trickles down to help Jazz if they choose Wendle defense over him some days. (3) Backup catcher - Stallings has a R/L pitching platoon split and more effective against RHP (basically .750 vs RHP, .600 vs LHP last year.... but his career is fairly neutral FWIW). This is a small quib, but they could use a backup catcher who hits lefties a little. 

So this boils down to:

Excruciating Need - Every day CF against all pitching. DLC replacement. Do it now.

Bench Needs - Backup 2B/3B who can hit LHP to spell Anderson/Wendle/Jazz versus LHP starters, and a better backup catcher to help against LHP starters. I think they can wait to the deadline for these, as Berti isn't useless and they can live 2-3 months with Henry/Fortes being replacement level.

Luxury Upgrade - Replace Aguilar with a guy who can hit RHP harder than Aguilar/Cooper. Aguilar and Cooper are effectively .775-.800 OPS hitters against RHP, so there is room to improve here if they can find an .825-.850 OPS guy who doesn't kill them defensively. This seems to be what you want most (as it's likely a lefty?), but I find this troublesome as they just choose to pay Aguilar $7.5m bucks when they could have DFA'd him and used this money to get a guy who hits righties..... This also seems like a July issue as it's easier to cut bait with Aguilar financially in the summer than now. Cooper is probably a keep with the LHP hitting prowess. I was wrong above about him, recent years stats show he creams them which is great. They don't need a Mancini. They need a dude who hits RH better than Aguilar/Cooper for a luxury upgrade.

 

So I don't disagree with you a lefty 1B to replace Aguilar makes sense on the field, but I don't see this as the top need as Aguilar isn't useless (probably?) and they need to expend resources on a CF first. They'll get more mileage out of a CF and a Berti replacement who hits LHP harder than Anderson and Wendle (likely sub .700 OPS options).

This then begs the question of what is the front office doing because if we remove the financial decision with Aguilar are turn back time months - why didn't they DFA Aguilar and sign Joc Pederson or Anthony Rizzo (hometown!). Joc is cheaper, and Rizzo doesn't make that much more relatively. Both of them are smarter ideas than Aguilar (and your lefty). If you knew you were going to sign Garcia and Soler/RH hitting DH.... Aguilar is the redundancy to improve upon. He's the third highest paid player on the team? This was dumb.

But get a CF now and all of this can be "fixed" at the all star break.