10 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Yes, because doing something that's been a sports team's in-game thing for a few decades automatically means all Braves fans are racist.

I don't actually think EVERY Braves fan is racist. But I do think the Braves chop thing *is* a racist action that should not be in the game. Just because it's been "a thing" for years doesn't make it not a problem. Now granted, I also don't think everyone at a Braves game that does the chop is individually a racist person, but they are enabling racism. If I, a Marlins fan, were made aware of an opposing player who was part fish and personally asked the Marlins to stop playing "Everybody's Doing the Fish, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" (at some point, I also time travelled back to when that was a thing) then I would stop doing "the fish" even if the stadium PA decided to disregard that opposing player's request. It's all about respect and understanding that if you are NOT part of the marginalized culture, you do NOT get to decide if the action is damaging. 

Edited September 28, 20223 yr by SongInTheAir

9 minutes ago, SongInTheAir said:

I don't actually think EVERY Braves fan is racist. But I do think the Braves chop thing *is* a racist action that should not be in the game. Just because it's been "a thing" for years doesn't make it not a problem. Now granted, I also don't think everyone at a Braves game that does the chop is individually a racist person, but they are enabling racism. If I, a Marlins fan, were made aware of an opposing player who was part fish and personally asked the Marlins to stop playing "Everybody's Doing the Fish, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" (at some point, I also time travelled back to when that was a thing) then I would stop doing "the fish" even if the stadium PA decided to disregard that opposing player's request. It's all about respect and understanding that if you are NOT part of the marginalized culture, you do NOT get to decide if the action is damaging. 

Isn't assuming that the Braves fans coming down here are part of the racist club a little prejudiced in and of itself, comrade?

Edited September 28, 20223 yr by Entendu

I just feel like in general, the current trend of putting everyone in their own box is the complete opposite of a push for diversity and inclusion and end of racist actions.....to me it'll only reinforce an "us vs. them" mentality for all races/groups.

Should the idea not be that everyone can celebrate any culture?

---

Just posing a question - what you think is racist about a chop?

So the team just can't do anything at all associated with Native Americans?

---

Never really knew the origins of the name....

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=0390c220161b0286JmltdHM9MTY2NDMyMzIwMCZpZ3VpZD0wYTBhMDhhNS02MmFmLTZjODYtMGFlZC0xOTNhNjZhZjZhZTMmaW5zaWQ9NTQ4NQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0a0a08a5-62af-6c86-0aed-193a66af6ae3&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWxiLmNvbS9uZXdzL2F0bGFudGEtYnJhdmVzLXRlYW0tbmFtZS1vcmlnaW4jOn46dGV4dD1BVExBTlRBJTIwLS0lMjBFdmVyJTIwd29uZGVyJTIwaG93JTIwdGhlJTIwQXRsYW50YSUyMEJyYXZlcyxvcmdhbml6YXRpb24lMjBuYW1lZCUyMGFmdGVyJTIwVGFtYW5lbmQlMkMlMjBhJTIwRGVsYXdhcmUlMjBJbmRpYW4lMjBjaGllZi4&ntb=1

Ever wonder how the Atlanta Braves got their name? Well, the origins date back more than a century, when the team was located in Boston and owned by a member of Tammany Hall, a New York City political organization named after Tamanend, a Delaware Indian chief. 

The history of the Braves organization goes back to 1876, when they were known as the Red Stockings. In 1883, they became the Beaneaters and kept that name until 1907, when new owner George Dovey changed it to the Doves.

Back then, it was common for teams to be named after their owners. So, when William Russell bought the franchise before the 1911 season, the club became the Rustlers. The team was sold the following year to James Gaffney, an alderman for Tammany Hall, which used an Indian headdress for its emblem and referred to its members as Braves. 

7 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

I just feel like in general, the current trend of putting everyone in their own box is the complete opposite of a push for diversity and inclusion and end of racist actions.....to me it'll only reinforce an "us vs. them" mentality for all races/groups.

Should the idea not be that everyone can celebrate any culture?

---

Just posing a question - what you think is racist about a chop?

So the team just can't do anything at all associated with Native Americans?

---

Never really knew the origins of the name....

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=0390c220161b0286JmltdHM9MTY2NDMyMzIwMCZpZ3VpZD0wYTBhMDhhNS02MmFmLTZjODYtMGFlZC0xOTNhNjZhZjZhZTMmaW5zaWQ9NTQ4NQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0a0a08a5-62af-6c86-0aed-193a66af6ae3&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWxiLmNvbS9uZXdzL2F0bGFudGEtYnJhdmVzLXRlYW0tbmFtZS1vcmlnaW4jOn46dGV4dD1BVExBTlRBJTIwLS0lMjBFdmVyJTIwd29uZGVyJTIwaG93JTIwdGhlJTIwQXRsYW50YSUyMEJyYXZlcyxvcmdhbml6YXRpb24lMjBuYW1lZCUyMGFmdGVyJTIwVGFtYW5lbmQlMkMlMjBhJTIwRGVsYXdhcmUlMjBJbmRpYW4lMjBjaGllZi4&ntb=1

Ever wonder how the Atlanta Braves got their name? Well, the origins date back more than a century, when the team was located in Boston and owned by a member of Tammany Hall, a New York City political organization named after Tamanend, a Delaware Indian chief. 

The history of the Braves organization goes back to 1876, when they were known as the Red Stockings. In 1883, they became the Beaneaters and kept that name until 1907, when new owner George Dovey changed it to the Doves.

Back then, it was common for teams to be named after their owners. So, when William Russell bought the franchise before the 1911 season, the club became the Rustlers. The team was sold the following year to James Gaffney, an alderman for Tammany Hall, which used an Indian headdress for its emblem and referred to its members as Braves. 

Celebrating a culture is different from animalizing it. "Panthers" "Jaguars" "Bears" "Marlins" "Dolphins" "Rays" "Indians" "Redskins" "Seminoles" "Irish Folk" "The British" "Senegalese" "Aboriginals"

do you see the difference?

Most importantly, it's not "celebrating" a culture if a member of that very culture asks you to stop and you don't. 

 

I honestly don't think the Braves team name is racist. Much like calling a team "Knights" or "Commanders", it's a position of power and respect in a culture, so I have no problem with the name (obviously different with Indians and Redskins). 

2 minutes ago, SongInTheAir said:

Much like calling a team "Knights"

I think the word "racist" itself is getting WAAAAY overused nowadays.  Insensitive?  That term might work a bit better for something like the "chop"?

Also, you can't automatically nix something that someone says offends them just because it offends that one person.  I guarantee there is nothing in this entire universe that at least one person won't claim offends them in some fashion. This is a large part of why the whole Cancel Culture thing has gotten out of hand and large swaths of people who vote leftish are even sick of it (me being one of them).

If something does distinctly belong to a certain culture and the majority of that culture comes out en masse and says, "yo, you really need to cut that shit out" then yeah there are certainly grounds for getting rid of whatever it is that is offensive.  But labeling nearly every single thing as racist is ridiculous.  Racist is a Klan rally where they organize to deliberately try to marginalize a people and actively plot, plan, scheme, etc against them.  I don't see how casual fans only invested in seeing their team win a baseball game is anything close to that other nefarious activity.  Again, insensitive maybe, but not racist. 

Man, we need some real problems

6 minutes ago, Entendu said:

Man, we need some real problems

My power went out for a whole eight seconds earlier.

This team is so pathetic. THis is the first year in a long time I'm not going to the Milwaukee series. Front row behind the dugout.. no thanks 

1 hour ago, hovertical said:

I think the word "racist" itself is getting WAAAAY overused nowadays.  Insensitive?  That term might work a bit better for something like the "chop"?

Also, you can't automatically nix something that someone says offends them just because it offends that one person.  I guarantee there is nothing in this entire universe that at least one person won't claim offends them in some fashion. This is a large part of why the whole Cancel Culture thing has gotten out of hand and large swaths of people who vote leftish are even sick of it (me being one of them).

If something does distinctly belong to a certain culture and the majority of that culture comes out en masse and says, "yo, you really need to cut that shit out" then yeah there are certainly grounds for getting rid of whatever it is that is offensive.  But labeling nearly every single thing as racist is ridiculous.  Racist is a Klan rally where they organize to deliberately try to marginalize a people and actively plot, plan, scheme, etc against them.  I don't see how casual fans only invested in seeing their team win a baseball game is anything close to that other nefarious activity.  Again, insensitive maybe, but not racist. 

Something can feel insensitive to you (not YOU, hovertical, "you" as a universal, general pronoun) because you are viewing it from a position of power. I am not Native, so to me, the Braves chop seems maybe just a little insensitive. But to Ryan Helsley? Or to millions of other Native folks? It may feel like an attack on their culture, which is more or less the definition of racism. I guess my point here is that yes, it may be insensitive, but that insensitivity can be perceived much differently by the marginalized person/class/race/culture/etc. Of course I agree that a Klan rally as you described is WAY worse than a team name or a celebratory chop or anything like that, but the acceptance of one breeds the other. Does a Braves fan doing the chop mean that he is going to go home, put on his pillow case, and go burn a cross in a Black person's front yard? Probably not. But I bet you the guy who is getting really into the Braves chop and is also a Cleveland fan and wears Chief Wahoo merch and thinks the Washington Commanders should have stuck with their own name is a lot more likely to look the other way if his neighbor comes out in Klan gear than someone else would be. 

1 hour ago, SongInTheAir said:

Something can feel insensitive to you (not YOU, hovertical, "you" as a universal, general pronoun) because you are viewing it from a position of power. I am not Native, so to me, the Braves chop seems maybe just a little insensitive. But to Ryan Helsley? Or to millions of other Native folks? It may feel like an attack on their culture, which is more or less the definition of racism. I guess my point here is that yes, it may be insensitive, but that insensitivity can be perceived much differently by the marginalized person/class/race/culture/etc. Of course I agree that a Klan rally as you described is WAY worse than a team name or a celebratory chop or anything like that, but the acceptance of one breeds the other. Does a Braves fan doing the chop mean that he is going to go home, put on his pillow case, and go burn a cross in a Black person's front yard? Probably not. But I bet you the guy who is getting really into the Braves chop and is also a Cleveland fan and wears Chief Wahoo merch and thinks the Washington Commanders should have stuck with their own name is a lot more likely to look the other way if his neighbor comes out in Klan gear than someone else would be. 

Some people's political ideologies and interpretation of certain world events are an attack on my culture. Should I be able to call them racist or insensitive? Or does it depend on the culture and beliefs?

This team becomes more difficult to root for every day. 

8 hours ago, rmc523 said:

More Mets fans here I guess?

That's arguable because this was essentially Braves country before the Marlins came around. I'd say there's more Braves fans than Mets fans here, though admittedly there's a ton of both. 

This is exactly why Mattingly decided to leave, and I can’t blame him.

15 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

That's arguable because this was essentially Braves country before the Marlins came around. I'd say there's more Braves fans than Mets fans here, though admittedly there's a ton of both. 

I'd argue that since then, more Mets fans have moved here than Braves fans are/were here, though.

12 hours ago, UltimaKilo said:

This is exactly why Mattingly decided to leave, and I can’t blame him.

Bold of you to assume he decided to leave and wasn't asked to leave

23 hours ago, SongInTheAir said:

Something can feel insensitive to you (not YOU, hovertical, "you" as a universal, general pronoun) because you are viewing it from a position of power. I am not Native, so to me, the Braves chop seems maybe just a little insensitive. But to Ryan Helsley? Or to millions of other Native folks? It may feel like an attack on their culture, which is more or less the definition of racism. I guess my point here is that yes, it may be insensitive, but that insensitivity can be perceived much differently by the marginalized person/class/race/culture/etc. Of course I agree that a Klan rally as you described is WAY worse than a team name or a celebratory chop or anything like that, but the acceptance of one breeds the other. Does a Braves fan doing the chop mean that he is going to go home, put on his pillow case, and go burn a cross in a Black person's front yard? Probably not. But I bet you the guy who is getting really into the Braves chop and is also a Cleveland fan and wears Chief Wahoo merch and thinks the Washington Commanders should have stuck with their own name is a lot more likely to look the other way if his neighbor comes out in Klan gear than someone else would be. 

even if a Braves fan does go home and toss on the bed sheet outfit doing the chop at a game isn't a racist act (it's the separete klan shit that makes him/her a racist pig)  - linking those two together would be no different than saying a fan doing the chop who goes home and then murders his family is a murderer because he did the chop at the Braves game so by that reasoning every Braves fan is a murderer for doing the chop.

I also find it interesting as teams like FSU for instance have Native Americans on horseback for pregame ceremonies and their fans are also very much into doing the whole chop bit - so the Seminoles are ok with it but it's racist if another tribe claims it's racist?  Again, I feel this is more of a cultural insensitivity issue versus a racist issue.  Additionally, if you really want to speak to someone and get them to understand that something bothers you - the best way to start and open that topic is not immediately by throwing the racist card at them. 

Sometimes nationalities and/or cultures also just borrow stuff from one another and is enjoying another culture and expressing yourself an inherently bad act?  I don't think it is in and of itself - it's more of the intent behind it.  Again, the difference lies between cultural insensitivity and racism.  Maybe I havee a different definition and stronger view of what constitutes racism than you or others but in talking to people I also know a lot of people fall along these lines too.  The problem is when people just shut down and finger point instead of being willing to listen to each side.

20 hours ago, hovertical said:

even if a Braves fan does go home and toss on the bed sheet outfit doing the chop at a game isn't a racist act (it's the separete klan shit that makes him/her a racist pig)  - linking those two together would be no different than saying a fan doing the chop who goes home and then murders his family is a murderer because he did the chop at the Braves game so by that reasoning every Braves fan is a murderer for doing the chop.

I also find it interesting as teams like FSU for instance have Native Americans on horseback for pregame ceremonies and their fans are also very much into doing the whole chop bit - so the Seminoles are ok with it but it's racist if another tribe claims it's racist?  Again, I feel this is more of a cultural insensitivity issue versus a racist issue.  Additionally, if you really want to speak to someone and get them to understand that something bothers you - the best way to start and open that topic is not immediately by throwing the racist card at them. 

Sometimes nationalities and/or cultures also just borrow stuff from one another and is enjoying another culture and expressing yourself an inherently bad act?  I don't think it is in and of itself - it's more of the intent behind it.  Again, the difference lies between cultural insensitivity and racism.  Maybe I havee a different definition and stronger view of what constitutes racism than you or others but in talking to people I also know a lot of people fall along these lines too.  The problem is when people just shut down and finger point instead of being willing to listen to each side.

And by extension, when everything is racist, then nothing is.  Overuse the word - as has happened in recent years - and it dilutes the meaning.

I mean, atleast the Mets fans would be CHEERING the marlins instead of Jeering them for once.

On 9/28/2022 at 2:23 PM, SongInTheAir said:

Celebrating a culture is different from animalizing it. "Panthers" "Jaguars" "Bears" "Marlins" "Dolphins" "Rays" "Indians" "Redskins" "Seminoles" "Irish Folk" "The British" "Senegalese" "Aboriginals"

do you see the difference?

Most importantly, it's not "celebrating" a culture if a member of that very culture asks you to stop and you don't. 

 

I honestly don't think the Braves team name is racist. Much like calling a team "Knights" or "Commanders", it's a position of power and respect in a culture, so I have no problem with the name (obviously different with Indians and Redskins). 

I'll only add this to the discussion... they can change the teams symbolism without changing the name. Think how the Rays went from Devil Rays to Rays of Sunshine.

Braves with an American flag symbolism replacing the chop and Native American Tomahawk would be the way to go. With an adjustment of the sleeve patch they can keep their identity and drop the controversial parts.

 

32 minutes ago, Piazza31 said:

 

Pants model got that Hank Hill ass.

23 minutes ago, Michael said:

Pants model got that Hank Hill ass.

Theres a reason his wifes name was Peggy.

1 hour ago, Michael said:

Pants model got that Hank Hill ass.

You can also see the narrow urethra. 

 

Is this better or worse?

 

 

3 hours ago, Michael said:

 

Is this better or worse?

 

 

Way better, gives credit to the Marlins for being a factor and doesn't beg an opposing fanbase for ticket sales.