2 minutes ago, SonOfJack said:

I didn't even think of that but yeah some similarities to King Felix

So in about 11 years or so the Marlins will hire Jerry DiPoto Jr? 

45 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

I'd also argue we don't have a choice anymore.  SOMETHING needs to be done, not just trotting the same team out and expecting to contend

When I say this I'm told Kim literally chooses not to do anything. 

I don't think the SP depth issue should be enough to make them choose to not make the trades though. It's so unevenly balanced as far as pitchers to bats that so what you bite the bullet and trade Pablo or whoever and get some bats and figure out the rotation later.

Great rotation with zero bats is never gonna work. But a lesser rotation with some bats at least has more of a chance so go for that immediately. 

The SP depth debate in general has become such a joke anyways to be honest. 

It's always been a concern and I remember several years back a specific Frisaro article saying the Marlins finally had SP depth and it listed like the nearly dozen SPs in line for the season and then eventually shit happened and the sp depth that season turned out to be bullshit anyways. 

Any team can list a dozen guys in line to possibly start during a season. It doesn't mean anything if they're riddled by injuries and if at least 4 or 5 guys don't actually have strong seasons. SP depth is like a house of toothpicks, you can say you have it and suddenly it just crumbles out of nowhere. 

Edit: Hey I found the article! January of 2016, twelve starter options in line, and then we added Chen a few weeks later... and what happened that season? Chen sucked, most of those guys underperformed, etc etc...

https://www.mlb.com/news/marlins-young-pitchers-provide-rotation-depth-c160366736

7 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

I don't think the SP depth issue should be enough to make them choose to not make the trades though. It's so unevenly balanced as far as pitchers to bats that so what you bite the bullet and trade Pablo or whoever and get some bats and figure out the rotation later.

Great rotation with zero bats is never gonna work. But a lesser rotation with some bats at least has more of a chance so go for that immediately. 

100% agree.  There's no reason to sit there and do nothing.

30 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

100% agree.  There's no reason to sit there and do nothing.

Ng would make lots of moves, she wouldn't stupid enough to show people she's a good GM by "doing nothing ".

1 hour ago, Das Texan said:

So in about 11 years or so the Marlins will hire Jerry DiPoto Jr? 

I don't know who this Mario is but that's a stupid tweet.  Not only is our rotation very good,  but we also have depth.  

We have 6 guys (Sandy, Pablo, Trevor, Jesus, Edward, and Braxton) ready to go and they've all had success already at the MLB level.  

We also have Eury and Dax should be ready by the All Star break. There's also Eder who will be back from TJ early this season.  Plus, we have a wild card in Sixto assuming he's finally healthy. That's 4 more quality options on top of our top 6.  

Even if you have to sign a stop gap FA pitcher to bridge the gap, who cares.  I think we can afford to trade 2 of our top 6 (Not Sandy) for as many controllable bats as we can.  I'd prefer to trade Pablo and Braxton but they should all be available depending on the return.

These people tweet without really knowing what or who we have in our system.  

1 hour ago, SilverBullet said:

The SP depth debate in general has become such a joke anyways to be honest. 

It's always been a concern and I remember several years back a specific Frisaro article saying the Marlins finally had SP depth and it listed like the nearly dozen SPs in line for the season and then eventually shit happened and the sp depth that season turned out to be bullshit anyways. 

Any team can list a dozen guys in line to possibly start during a season. It doesn't mean anything if they're riddled by injuries and if at least 4 or 5 guys don't actually have strong seasons. SP depth is like a house of toothpicks, you can say you have it and suddenly it just crumbles out of nowhere. 

Edit: Hey I found the article! January of 2016, twelve starter options in line, and then we added Chen a few weeks later... and what happened that season? Chen sucked, most of those guys underperformed, etc etc...

https://www.mlb.com/news/marlins-young-pitchers-provide-rotation-depth-c160366736

I glanced at that article.  You can't compare those fringe prospects with what we have in our arsenal today.  Koehler, Nicolino, Ureña? Those were all (at that time) considered 4th or 5th starters.  Some of the others listed on there I've never even heard of.  That article was just Joe being Joe.  LOL

13 minutes ago, Rydawg said:

I don't know who this Mario is but that's a stupid tweet.  Not only is our rotation very good,  but we also have depth.  

We have 6 guys (Sandy, Pablo, Trevor, Jesus, Edward, and Braxton) ready to go and they've all had success already at the MLB level.  

We also have Eury and Dax should be ready by the All Star break. There's also Eder who will be back from TJ early this season.  Plus, we have a wild card in Sixto assuming he's finally healthy. That's 4 more quality options on top of our top 6.  

Even if you have to sign a stop gap FA pitcher to bridge the gap, who cares.  I think we can afford to trade 2 of our top 6 (Not Sandy) for as many controllable bats as we can.  I'd prefer to trade Pablo and Braxton but they should all be available depending on the return.

These people tweet without really knowing what or who we have in our system.  

 

We had basically the same set of guys last year and had multiple injuries.

I'm for making trades anyway, so I'm not arguing to keep them, just saying we (or any team really) can't go into a season assuming they'll have enough.

41 minutes ago, Rydawg said:

I glanced at that article.  You can't compare those fringe prospects with what we have in our arsenal today.  Koehler, Nicolino, Ureña? Those were all (at that time) considered 4th or 5th starters.  Some of the others listed on there I've never even heard of.  That article was just Joe being Joe.  LOL

Trevor has been Koehler or Urena for a season and a half now.  Can't count him as good depth at this point as overall his body of work tells us he sucks.

Prospects are prospects until they can establish themselves at the big league level - they don't get to be counted as being good depth just yet either until they can prove otherwise.  Mentioning Sixto is not fair either.  Even listing him as a wildcard at this point is not realistic for obvious reasons. 

Pablo is a decent #3 guy.  Lizard is injury prone as is Cabrera. 

They have very little quality SP depth. 

Edited December 19, 20223 yr by hovertical

Are there even any rumors that we're even working on any trades?  Or is it just complete radio silence and Kim's just got her feet up taking a nap?

41 minutes ago, hovertical said:

Trevor has been Koehler or Urena for a season and a half now.  Can't count him as good depth at this point as overall his body of work tells us he sucks.

Prospects are prospects until they can establish themselves at the big league level - they don't get to be counted as being good depth just yet either until they can prove otherwise.  Mentioning Sixto is not fair either.  Even listing him as a wildcard at this point is not realistic for obvious reasons. 

Pablo is a decent #3 guy.  Lizard is injury prone as is Cabrera. 

They have very little quality SP depth. 

I whole heartedly, and respectfully disagree with you.  Trevor had an overall solid rookie year even if his second half wasn't quite as good as his 1st half.  You also forget he had a long layoff because of a family issue and he didn't come back quite as sharp.  Koehler never had a season like Trevor's rookie season.  The two talents aren't even comparable. 

Pablo is a very good #2.  His ERA is a little inflated because he had a couple of rough games against the Mets.  His ERA aside, which isn't even bad, the rest of his body of work is very good.  

Sixto, from all accounts, is ready to go in spring training.  It takes 2 years to fully recover from shoulder surgery. It's not like TJ surgery.  If healthy, there's no reason to believe he's forgotten how to pitch.  There may be some rust but that can be worked out in the pen. 

Cabrera and Luzardo have had some injuries.  Name a pitcher who hasn't.  There aren't many.  That's the whole point of having depth.  It's there when injuries occur.  

Eury and Dax aren't your typicall prospects. Especially Eury!  They've both had success in AA already at a young age.  Nothing is a given but with the way we develop pitchers, I'd say they're safe bets.  

What you failed to mention is the success they've all had at the MLB level when healthy.  They have all been, not just good, but flat out dominant. 

We have a plethora of pitching and in a day and age when you're paying 30 Million a year for stud pitchers, many orgs should be envious of our pitching depth.  

Look, I get it that we are down on this owner and this FO , and rightfully so. But the pitching depth and the quality of that depth is something they've gotten right.  We don't need to pile on this team just to spite them because we don't like the owner and GM. 

Just my 2 cents worth. 

2 minutes ago, Rydawg said:

I whole heartedly, and respectfully disagree with you.  Trevor had an overall solid rookie year even if his second half wasn't quite as good as his 1st half.  You also forget he had a long layoff because of a family issue and he didn't come back quite as sharp.  Koehler never had a season like Trevor's rookie season.  The two talents aren't even comparable. 

Pablo is a very good #2.  His ERA is a little inflated because he had a couple of rough games against the Mets.  His ERA aside, which isn't even bad, the rest of his body of work is very good.  

Sixto, from all accounts, is ready to go in spring training.  It takes 2 years to fully recover from shoulder surgery. It's not like TJ surgery.  If healthy, there's no reason to believe he's forgotten how to pitch.  There may be some rust but that can be worked out in the pen. 

Cabrera and Luzardo have had some injuries.  Name a pitcher who hasn't.  There aren't many.  That's the whole point of having depth.  It's there when injuries occur.  

Eury and Dax aren't your typicall prospects. Especially Eury!  They've both had success in AA already at a young age.  Nothing is a given but with the way we develop pitchers, I'd say they're safe bets.  

What you failed to mention is the success they've all had at the MLB level when healthy.  They have all been, not just good, but flat out dominant. 

We have a plethora of pitching and in a day and age when you're paying 30 Million a year for stud pitchers, many orgs should be envious of our pitching depth.  

Look, I get it that we are down on this owner and this FO , and rightfully so. But the pitching depth and the quality of that depth is something they've gotten right.  We don't need to pile on this team just to spite them because we don't like the owner and GM. 

Just my 2 cents worth. 

 

Either way, pitching depth doesn't matter if we can't score.  And they've done absolutely nothing to address that.

3 hours ago, rmc523 said:

100% agree.  There's no reason to sit there and do nothing.

When teams like the Dodgers and Padres are in a bidding war for Seth Fucking Lugo, Kim should be working those phones hard and and offering Pablo.  This is  ridiculous already.

I just want to know - was there ever a game plan for the offseason?  I just don't understand.  It'd be one thing if we were in year 2 of a rebuild, and you want to let guys develop.  We're in year 5.  The rebuild is over.

Do they even have a list of guys to target or trades to try to do?  Because it sure does seem like they just use Don's lineup spinning wheel and fill it up with "nothing" on all the options?

2 hours ago, Rydawg said:

I glanced at that article.  You can't compare those fringe prospects with what we have in our arsenal today.  Koehler, Nicolino, Ureña? Those were all (at that time) considered 4th or 5th starters.  Some of the others listed on there I've never even heard of.  That article was just Joe being Joe.  LOL

The point was that any team can list a dozen guys who could start and call that "depth." Yes that list was weak, but it was a claim of depth. So to think that team had SP depth and that the 2023 Marlins have no SP depth is absolutely ridiculous. 

This also reminds me of that like 2007-2011 period where we claimed depth and were trotting out Daniel Barone, Elih Villanueva, Alex Sanabia, Hayden Penn, Jay Buente, Wes Obermueller, and Rick Van Den Hurk.

18 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

I just want to know - was there ever a game plan for the offseason?  I just don't understand.  It'd be one thing if we were in year 2 of a rebuild, and you want to let guys develop.  We're in year 5.  The rebuild is over.

Do they even have a list of guys to target or trades to try to do?  Because it sure does seem like they just use Don's lineup spinning wheel and fill it up with "nothing" on all the options?

We know they've made offers to at least four notable free agents so I'd say yes there is some sort of plan. It just obviously has been nothing but misses so far. If one or two of those guys would have signed we'd be looking at this differently today. So it seems like the plan was, say Abreu and Turner sign, then you make a trade down the line to add one more bat, likely CF. So yes I do see signs of a plan. Not sure how anyone can ignore that they have made offers.

44 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Are there even any rumors that we're even working on any trades? 

No one wants to listen to Mish but he's the only who bothers checking in on anything for the Marlins and he says they've discussed trades but haven't closed in on anything yet. The trade market has been slow all around so I'd assume that's an MLB issue and not just a Marlins thing. Also, apparently the Pirates still refuse to listen to offers for Reynolds so that's not gonna help things.

12 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

We know they've made offers to at least four notable free agents so I'd say yes there is some sort of plan. It just obviously has been nothing but misses so far. If one or two of those guys would have signed we'd be looking at this differently today. So it seems like the plan was, say Abreu and Turner sign, then you make a trade down the line to add one more bat, likely CF. So yes I do see signs of a plan. Not sure how anyone can ignore that they have made offers.

Who were the other two besides Abreu and Turner?

 

And wasn't our Abreu offer not even close?

5 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Who were the other two besides Abreu and Turner?

 

And wasn't our Abreu offer not even close?

Bell and Bellinger if I'm not mistaken.

But listen it doesn't matter if the offer to Abreu wasn't close. You asked if the team had a plan. They're not executing the plan right but there is a plan. If they've gone after four free agents that means step 1 was free agency and step 2 is trades.

Now yes considering free agency has been nothing but misses then now trades is the only way to go.

If they had somehow added Abreu, Justin Turner, and then traded for Bryan Reynolds nobody would be saying they weren't trying.

1 minute ago, rmc523 said:

Who were the other two besides Abreu and Turner?

 

And wasn't our Abreu offer not even close?

This is where they made a mistake early on.  They should have overpaid for Abreu.  It was only a 2 or 3 year deal, and he's still productive in a position where we have no one other than Cooper.  This should have been our Jason Werth moment.  With Abreu on board, going for Turner made much more sense at that point. Those 2 at 3rd and 1st and a couple of trades would have this team looking very different. 

2 minutes ago, Rydawg said:

This is where they made a mistake early on.  They should have overpaid for Abreu.  It was only a 2 or 3 year deal, and he's still productive in a position where we have no one other than Cooper.  This should have been our Jason Werth moment.  With Abreu on board, going for Turner made much more sense at that point. Those 2 at 3rd and 1st and a couple of trades would have this team looking very different. 

Exactly this. There's a plan but they suck at executing it. What you said here would have made such a difference. And the domino effect of Abreu signing here could have helped a lot with Turner, or Bellinger, or whoever else they want after.

2 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

Bell and Bellinger if I'm not mistaken.

But listen it doesn't matter if the offer to Abreu wasn't close. You asked if the team had a plan. They're not executing the plan right but there is a plan. If they've gone after four free agents that means step 1 was free agency and step 2 is trades.

Now yes considering free agency has been nothing but misses then now trades is the only way to go.

If they had somehow added Abreu, Justin Turner, and then traded for Bryan Reynolds nobody would be saying they weren't trying.

 

I forgot about that.....Eh, I only ever saw reports they "targeted" Bell/Bellinger, with no attempt.

 

I'll also push back a bit in the sense of I can have a plan to go to the moon, but if I don't pay for it, I'm not getting there.

 

They can have a "plan", but that plan won't do any good if they have no realistic chance of executing because they vastly undervalue players.

 

Just now, Rydawg said:

This is where they made a mistake early on.  They should have overpaid for Abreu.  It was only a 2 or 3 year deal, and he's still productive in a position where we have no one other than Cooper.  This should have been our Jason Werth moment.  With Abreu on board, going for Turner made much more sense at that point. Those 2 at 3rd and 1st and a couple of trades would have this team looking very different. 

Not only that, it might entice Turner to sign because he sees other improvements.

3 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

Bell and Bellinger if I'm not mistaken.

But listen it doesn't matter if the offer to Abreu wasn't close. You asked if the team had a plan. They're not executing the plan right but there is a plan. If they've gone after four free agents that means step 1 was free agency and step 2 is trades.

Now yes considering free agency has been nothing but misses then now trades is the only way to go.

If they had somehow added Abreu, Justin Turner, and then traded for Bryan Reynolds nobody would be saying they weren't trying.

Yes, but is a really flawed plan still a plan or just setting up excuses? If your plan is to sign those 2 guys, then you pay and even over pay to get them.  I can plan to buy the Marlins , but if I know I  don't have the financing,  is it really much of a plan or just a pipe dream. Looking at the deals those guys received,  there really wasn't a good reason not to sign them. Unless they absolutely didn't want to play here which might have been the case with Turner.

And I'm giving 50/50 on blame between Kim and Sherman for lack of spending.

 

50 for Sherman just being cheap

50 for Kim seemingly starting negotiations insultingly low that a FA is turned off from the get-go.