Look, in the late innings 1 run game, you throw the best guys you can. That's what you do? Why is it so difficult to understand why some of us are angry with Tosca and Fredi for not doing that. It's understandable, when we were still up, we threw out Tim Wood and Brian Sanches, but when the game became close at the end, throwing up Luis Ayala and Brenden Donnelly instead of the best guys we had? That's just stupid.

 

 

Ayala probably should have been replaced after getting Morgan to sacrifice. That I will agree with, though using him initially, I wouldn't be too upset about because of the previous night's show against the Nats versus what Kiko and Meyer did the night before. You use Ayala, and when he shows the first sign of trouble, you yank him. But putting him in there, in a series where our bullpen hasn't exactly been lights out, doesn't bother me.

I feel the team after winning ten straight look past this series and was looking ahead to philly, by the time they wakeup the series were over, well it is on to Philadelphia, hoping we win this series.

Look, in the late innings 1 run game, you throw the best guys you can. That's what you do? Why is it so difficult to understand why some of us are angry with Tosca and Fredi for not doing that. It's understandable, when we were still up, we threw out Tim Wood and Brian Sanches, but when the game became close at the end, throwing up Luis Ayala and Brenden Donnelly instead of the best guys we had? That's just stupid.

 

 

 

what is wrong with brenden donnelly? and i agree with the ayala point, but he has to get the job done, and guys like leo nunez and calero have been pretty shaky lately. game shouldnt have gotten to tha t point in the first place if we had any kind of hitting with risp.

Nothing is wrong with Donnelly per se, but he hasn't done anything to prove himself yet. He's only pitched 11 innings, mostly in low leverage situations. It' more about how he wasn't the best option we had in the pen in a close game.

moved this to a new thread...

EDIT: Nope, wrong. I read things wrong. We were only 5-19 with RISP, which is still a .263 average.

Disgusting pen management. Apparently Nunez, Meyer and Calero already made the trip to Philly cause any sane manager/coach would of used them today.

 

Even if we win 2 @ CBP we will be 6 games out in the division. If ever there is time for a sweep, it is now. It just isn't gonna happen when Ayala and Co are used in tight situations and our hitters continually pop up with RISP.

ok, let's look at the other guys Rab mentioned.

 

Dan Meyer is better against righty's than lefty's. Same is said about Calero and Nunez. The only player that makes sense to use in that situation is Matt Lindstrom, and he has had his fair share of troubles.

 

Kiko and Meyer are both fantastic two way relievers.

 

 

Both Meyer and Calero were used yesterday and each gave up a run in 0.1 innings. I'm just saying Tosca probably thought it was best for them to regroup and get ready for the Phillies series.

 

 

Meyer and Kiko weren't used yesterday.

Lol...1 bad game (better yet, 1 bad pitch) is your argument.

How about checking a larger sample...like the season?

 

This isn't the "devil" anything. It was a winnable game, and our best relievers weren't used...weren't even warming up, at one point. They were available, too.

 

 

I didn't say that Ayala was better than them overall, I didn't say that I wasn't taking a small sample size. However, our bullpen was hit hard on Tuesday, including Meyer and Kiko, one bad pitch or not. People were still complaining about Meyer and Kiko after that game.

 

Meanwhile, Ayala, pitched a scoreless, hitless inning the day before. If we want to "ride the hot hand" in terms of our offense, why can't you do the same for bullpen pitchers? Nunez would have been better than any of those three options, as he hadn't pitched yet in the series. But Ayala did strike out Gonzalez when he was called upon, so it wasn't like Ayala immediately stunk up the joint. Maybe he should have been given the hook sooner, but for a while it seemed like he had the Nats number, even if it was only for four outs (four recent outs, but don't we have a "what have you done for me lately" mindset?)

 

 

No one was complaining about using Kiko and Meyer after that game. They were complaining about using Pinto...or leaving JJ in too long.

After that game, however...looking at it...I can say that Fredi managed it, correctly. I have no problems with what Fredi did on Tuesday. (although, I'd prefer if he used Meyer before Pinto...which he seems to be going away from).

 

And I'm not a fan of that "mindset." Fact is, Ayala sucks against lefties, and we threw him back out there when the Nats were opening the inning with 2 lefties. (1 of those lefties, Morgan, rips RHP, and sucks against lefties...should've used...MEYER).

 

That simple.

Look, in the late innings 1 run game, you throw the best guys you can. That's what you do? Why is it so difficult to understand why some of us are angry with Tosca and Fredi for not doing that. It's understandable, when we were still up, we threw out Tim Wood and Brian Sanches, but when the game became close at the end, throwing up Luis Ayala and Brenden Donnelly instead of the best guys we had? That's just stupid.

 

 

Ayala probably should have been replaced after getting Morgan to sacrifice. That I will agree with, though using him initially, I wouldn't be too upset about because of the previous night's show against the Nats versus what Kiko and Meyer did the night before. You use Ayala, and when he shows the first sign of trouble, you yank him. But putting him in there, in a series where our bullpen hasn't exactly been lights out, doesn't bother me.

 

 

Using him initially is actually a bigger problem.

In a key situation...Ayala should never be used against lefties. Period.

 

EDIT: And he shouldn't be used, at all, when our 2 best relievers are sitting fresh in the pen.

There's a reason Luis Ayala was available to us.

So sick of this team not delivering with runners in scoring position, not even Hanley had clutch hits in this series.

 

 

Yes he did. Hanley was 3-5 today. He came through.

Look, in the late innings 1 run game, you throw the best guys you can. That's what you do? Why is it so difficult to understand why some of us are angry with Tosca and Fredi for not doing that. It's understandable, when we were still up, we threw out Tim Wood and Brian Sanches, but when the game became close at the end, throwing up Luis Ayala and Brenden Donnelly instead of the best guys we had? That's just stupid.

 

 

Ayala probably should have been replaced after getting Morgan to sacrifice. That I will agree with, though using him initially, I wouldn't be too upset about because of the previous night's show against the Nats versus what Kiko and Meyer did the night before. You use Ayala, and when he shows the first sign of trouble, you yank him. But putting him in there, in a series where our bullpen hasn't exactly been lights out, doesn't bother me.

 

 

Using him initially is actually a bigger problem.

In a key situation...Ayala should never be used against lefties. Period.

 

EDIT: And he shouldn't be used, at all, when our 2 best relievers are sitting fresh in the pen.

 

Eh, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't mind giving a reliever, even one is bad stats wise but is still relatively new to our team and division, a chance to prove himself in a tight situation when he pitched well against the same opponent the night before, though you should have a shorter leash. You have those better guys warming up just in case, but some of our better guys haven't faired so well against the Nats the past few games (albeit, as you said, for Meyer it was one bad pitch and the matchup favored him (that is what I remembered discussion about re: complaining about Fredi (you weren't complaining to the best of my recollection, so sorry if it came across as of I was accusing you of something), but now I can't find it).

 

Anyways, back on point regarding using Ayala and what was happening around him in terms of our bullpend: it is how roles get shaken up. Not that I expect Ayala to become a dominant closer or set up guy, far from it. But especially with Hopper on the DL and our rotating 4th/5th starter, the bullpen is experiencing high turnover, in terms of roles. I can see the logic behind it. Though, again, shorter leash. Probably should have pulled him after the walk, if not the sacrifice.

the problem is that we (marlins fans ) think that our team is a playoff team and although we have been close all season on the standings we are really not.

a playoff team CAN NOT lose a game that is winning by 4 runs in the 8th and another game that they are also wining by 6 runs .....we are not a playoff team and maybe we are asking too much out of this bunch ......

also,i think is the managers job to inspire his team, to lead his team , to fight for his team and i think fredi is just not like that so maybe getting rid of him would do the marlins some good

I haven't read most of this thread but after this afternoon's game, I am pretty certain that I am going to rule out any realistic chances of the Marlins making the playoffs.

 

This team just isn't good enough. The only dependable arms in the rotation are Johnson's and Nolasco's (to a much lesser extent). The offense is streaky and the Johnson addition, while wise, is not enough to compensate for a line-up that still frequently contains the struggling Coghlan, Bonifacio, and Uggla. Johnson and Ramirez are the only players with OPS numbers above .800. And, of course, the bullpen is completely aimless and unreliable.

 

Yes, the Marlins are only five games back, but there are a handful of teams in the race and nearly all of them are admittedly better than the Fish are.

Hey look at it this way...if we sweep the Phils, we are right back in the thick of the fight....

 

And if we don't, we're effed. In the A.

 

Although 2 out of 3 would certainly be pretty nice.

Thought this would be a good reference for a true championship deliver it when it counts team

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090806&content_id=6280882&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

 

I hate the Yanks, but they are good....

The Marlins just need to forget about this enitre series if they want to have ANY sucess in philly. Honestly, as long as we don't lose 6 straight i'll be happy

I haven't read most of this thread but after this afternoon's game, I am pretty certain that I am going to rule out any realistic chances of the Marlins making the playoffs.

 

This team just isn't good enough. The only dependable arms in the rotation are Johnson's and Nolasco's (to a much lesser extent). The offense is streaky and the Johnson addition, while wise, is not enough to compensate for a line-up that still frequently contains the struggling Coghlan, Bonifacio, and Uggla. Johnson and Ramirez are the only players with OPS numbers above .800. And, of course, the bullpen is completely aimless and unreliable.

 

Yes, the Marlins are only five games back, but there are a handful of teams in the race and nearly all of them are admittedly better than the Fish are.

 

 

 

Coghlan and Uggla are on fire. Especially Coghlan.

Hanley didn't seem to perform in the clutch today.

If I remember correctly, his three hits were with no one on base.

Then he what? popped out with the bases loaded twice?

I don't remember exactly because I was furious.

Terrible series.

We all expected a sweep.

Just the Marlins were on the wrong end of it.

 

Also, Porter could have sent some of the runners early in the game and always stopped them.

I think some of them had a chance and he held them being too cautious.

Hanley didn't seem to perform in the clutch today.

If I remember correctly, his three hits were with no one on base.

Then he what? popped out with the bases loaded twice?

I don't remember exactly because I was furious.

Terrible series.

We all expected a sweep.

Just the Marlins were on the wrong end of it.

 

Also, Porter could have sent some of the runners early in the game and always stopped them.

I think some of them had a chance and he held them being too cautious.

 

 

 

ya even though he did go 3-5 it seems he has been slumping a little bit lately. hes batting .167 in the last 7 days and it looked like was getting under every one of those sliders he got that were right down the middle in the 8th

I haven't read most of this thread but after this afternoon's game, I am pretty certain that I am going to rule out any realistic chances of the Marlins making the playoffs.

 

This team just isn't good enough. The only dependable arms in the rotation are Johnson's and Nolasco's (to a much lesser extent). The offense is streaky and the Johnson addition, while wise, is not enough to compensate for a line-up that still frequently contains the struggling Coghlan, Bonifacio, and Uggla. Johnson and Ramirez are the only players with OPS numbers above .800. And, of course, the bullpen is completely aimless and unreliable.

 

Yes, the Marlins are only five games back, but there are a handful of teams in the race and nearly all of them are admittedly better than the Fish are.

 

 

 

Coghlan and Uggla are on fire. Especially Coghlan.

They both had dismal July's. Especially Coghlan.

I haven't read most of this thread but after this afternoon's game, I am pretty certain that I am going to rule out any realistic chances of the Marlins making the playoffs.

 

This team just isn't good enough. The only dependable arms in the rotation are Johnson's and Nolasco's (to a much lesser extent). The offense is streaky and the Johnson addition, while wise, is not enough to compensate for a line-up that still frequently contains the struggling Coghlan, Bonifacio, and Uggla. Johnson and Ramirez are the only players with OPS numbers above .800. And, of course, the bullpen is completely aimless and unreliable.

 

Yes, the Marlins are only five games back, but there are a handful of teams in the race and nearly all of them are admittedly better than the Fish are.

 

 

 

Coghlan and Uggla are on fire. Especially Coghlan.

They both had dismal July's. Especially Coghlan.

 

I think he was just referring o the series vs the nats. Hopefully they both keep it up in Philly.

I haven't read most of this thread but after this afternoon's game, I am pretty certain that I am going to rule out any realistic chances of the Marlins making the playoffs.

 

This team just isn't good enough. The only dependable arms in the rotation are Johnson's and Nolasco's (to a much lesser extent). The offense is streaky and the Johnson addition, while wise, is not enough to compensate for a line-up that still frequently contains the struggling Coghlan, Bonifacio, and Uggla. Johnson and Ramirez are the only players with OPS numbers above .800. And, of course, the bullpen is completely aimless and unreliable.

 

Yes, the Marlins are only five games back, but there are a handful of teams in the race and nearly all of them are admittedly better than the Fish are.

 

 

 

Coghlan and Uggla are on fire. Especially Coghlan.

They both had dismal July's. Especially Coghlan.

 

Coghlan had a bad start in July. Since the 17t of July, he has been on a tear.

Hanley didn't seem to perform in the clutch today.

If I remember correctly, his three hits were with no one on base.

Then he what? popped out with the bases loaded twice?

I don't remember exactly because I was furious.

Terrible series.

We all expected a sweep.

Just the Marlins were on the wrong end of it.

 

Also, Porter could have sent some of the runners early in the game and always stopped them.

I think some of them had a chance and he held them being too cautious.

 

 

 

ya even though he did go 3-5 it seems he has been slumping a little bit lately. hes batting .167 in the last 7 days and it looked like was getting under every one of those sliders he got that were right down the middle in the 8th

 

 

Yeah exactly what I mean.

It seemed as if he was pressing or something.

It appeared like his back leg kept coming from under him when swinging at those hanging sliders and he kept getting under them and popping them up.

Don't get me wrong, he has gotten hits.

But he had one RBI yesterday, and if I remember correctly he was up there with the bases loaded twice and popped up.

His swing looked out of whack too in the 9th the other night down by 1.

Hanley hit one yesterday that Morgan caught right up against the wall with 2 on I think.