I think the job that Fredi did this season shouldn’t go unnoticed. Given the circumstances, and the fact that our starting pitching was decimated by injuries and inconsistencies, he did an above average job overall. I believe we set the record for most consecutive games without having a complete game. Day in and day out, our starters struggled. Fredi constantly had to manage the bullpen for 4+ innings a game. Nolasco was sent down, Volstad was sent down, Miller was sent down, Annibal Sanchez came back from injury. Johnson was the only consistent arm for Fredi. Any manager in baseball, with an inconsistent starting rotation, would have an extremely difficult time staying competitive till the end, but Fredi managed to stay in it. However I do think the performance of our starting pitching was an aberration this year and I feel they’ll be back strong next year.

 

I think our bullpen did a phenomenal job this season, and I think Fredi deserves a lot of credit. He put our relievers in situations where they could be effective. The number one complaint about Fredi this year was putting the wrong guy in at the wrong time. But what’s the point of having relievers on your team if you’re never going to use them? Yeah Kiko Calero was our best reliever, but the guy is only human. We did blow a ton of saves with Matty and Nunez, but that’s all he had to work with, that’s all upper management gave him. And when Fredi calls on a guy, it’s the players' responsibility to do his job. A lot of you used Fredi as the scapegoat when individual players failed to do their job. Yeah we can all question a couple of moves, but it’s a 162 game season, and I think he managed the bullpen very well.

 

Our offense had a great year, and again Fredi deserves a lot of credit. We made history in a lot of areas; 15 straight games of 10 or more hits, Helms and Gload tying a major league record for pinch hits, all the records that Coghlan set, Hanley winning the batting title. And even after the debacle following our 11-1 start, the team responded well and stayed competitive till the end. Fredi always had these guys motivated to play. You saw that constant fight in our team, and at no point did they feel they were out of a game. We had a ton of walk off hits and late inning heroics. A managers influence on offensive production seems to be obscure at times, but it actually has a huge impact, and Fredi deserves a lot of praise.

 

Every year, we have the lowest payroll in baseball. We’re constantly playing young guys who are still learning how to play the game at the major league level, and it’s a managers job to get these guys ready everyday. Given the circumstances, our starting pitching, and all the other adversities that Fredi faced this year, I think he did a very effective job. Tommy noted this season was a season full of superlatives, and Fredi had a lot to do with that. Anyone who thinks Fredi was inept as a manager is completely erroneous in judgment. All these idiots thinking Bobby Valentine is going to be Fredi’s heir apparent are asinine and need to shut up. We were in the race till the very last week. He led us to the 3rd best record in our franchises history, and I think that alone should serve as an effective barometer for the job Fredi did this year.

I completely agree. While I think most of the credit for this team overachieving with an underwhelming payroll should go to Beinfest, Fredi deserves a large pat on the back for what he has been able to do as well. I cringe when people call for his head. Who do you bring in that will guarantee the results we've seen the last 2 years?? The guy made a patchwork bullpen work. He was able to keep the Marlins in the playoff hunt all year with 1, count it again, 1 consistent starter in the rotation the entire season. I don't think a Chris Coghlan flourishes at the top of the lineup with an impatient knee-jerk manager at the helm...remember, he was hitting .250 the first few months he was up. Fredi easily could have buried him in the 7/8 spot in the lineup and hampered his development.

 

We as Marlin fans have suffered a lot through watching our marquee players leave and the payrolls around us balloon. But when it comes down to it, we are a spoiled bunch. We have 2 titles in the last 12 years. The Cubs will enter play next year almost 102 years since their last. We have as many or more rings than every other National League team since 1982 (Cardinals). Enjoy that fact, and root against the Cardinals over the next month to keep that a reality.

I completely agree. While I think most of the credit for this team overachieving with an underwhelming payroll should go to Beinfest, Fredi deserves a large pat on the back for what he has been able to do as well. I cringe when people call for his head. Who do you bring in that will guarantee the results we've seen the last 2 years?? The guy made a patchwork bullpen work. He was able to keep the Marlins in the playoff hunt all year with 1, count it again, 1 consistent starter in the rotation the entire season. I don't think a Chris Coghlan flourishes at the top of the lineup with an impatient knee-jerk manager at the helm...remember, he was hitting .250 the first few months he was up. Fredi easily could have buried him in the 7/8 spot in the lineup and hampered his development.

 

We as Marlin fans have suffered a lot through watching our marquee players leave and the payrolls around us balloon. But when it comes down to it, we are a spoiled bunch. We have 2 titles in the last 12 years. The Cubs will enter play next year almost 102 years since their last. We have as many or more rings than every other National League team since 1982 (Cardinals). Enjoy that fact, and root against the Cardinals over the next month to keep that a reality.

 

 

Thanks for pointing that out. I actually remember a lot of people questioning Fredi's decision to leave Coghlan in there after his struggles. And now look at the situation. Coghlan is the quintessential leadoff man, and his production this year completely dumbfounded all of us. If it wasn't for Fredi's patience with him, we would have never seen Coghlan evolve into the player he is today.

Uh oh, wait until Erick gets ahold of this thread...

 

For the record, I agree. He has made some boneheaded decisions, no doubt ... but overall he has done a good job with the talent he's been given.

Uh oh, wait until Erick gets ahold of this thread...

 

For the record, I agree. He has made some boneheaded decisions, no doubt ... but overall he has done a good job with the talent he's been given.

 

 

He's probably busy with all those teams from every level of baseball knocking on his door begging him to coach/manage for them. After all, he had a brother play A ball for a little while.

One of the worst ways to judge a manager is to judge him by his record. People seem to think that since we won 87 games, and we "overachieved", Fredi deserves the credit.

Maybe Loria has his reasons for wanting Fredi out-assuming the rumors are true. But for me to believe it is because Loria feels that Fredi was given all the tools to make the playoffs and just failed is delusional. As Samson implied there were games we should have won but did not, well, there were games we should not have won but did-so who gets the credit. And to think that every game you pulled out of your hat, well, you deserve to win those games and then expect that every game you lose that you may have led late in the game you should have won-well, back to being delusional. (And Loria, it is ok to wear something other than a striped shirt once in a while. Firing Fredi was the last thing I thought would happen this offseason. Even for those who do not like his style, I doubt too many people saw this. Who knows, maybe Fredi was already in a deal to take over for Cox (although this would be tampering)and Loria will just jump the gun. Well, let the fun begin.

Restaurant owners don't demand a chef win a cooking competition while providing him average ingredients.

 

With the exception of Hanley, JJ, Coughlan and Cantu, the Marlins had average to below average players who performed as well as can be expected.

 

Mr. Loria.....don't blame Fredi and open up your wallet now, don't wait until 2012. You are risking your future fan base by once again insulting the fans and testing their patience.

I think Loria is still stuck in the 11-1 mentality that we all were at the start of the season.

Restaurant owners don't demand a chef win a cooking competition while providing him average ingredients.

 

With the exception of Hanley, JJ, Coughlan and Cantu, the Marlins had average to below average players who performed as well as can be expected.

 

Mr. Loria.....don't blame Fredi and open up your wallet now, don't wait until 2012. You are risking your future fan base by once again insulting the fans and testing their patience.

 

 

This is all excellent. Funny analogy. I actually think Cantu is below average as a 1B, while Cody is above average as a CF. The last part is kinda true. I can't see myself ever leaving the Marlins, but feels like somewhat of an insult to my intelligence, as a fan, that Loria should have these quotes about expecting the team to make the playoffs but not being willing to shell out a few more bucks. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining (alright, alright, so maybe that doesn't fit perfectly, but I like it anyway).

I admit that I don't know a whole lot , but you are what your record says you are is that correct or not? So if this guy is winning does it matter if its pretty? Unless we're gonna upgrade to a Tony LaRussa type I don't really see the advantage of switching mangers. I say that giving Hermida and Bonifacio to the manager is where the blame should go.

Fredi has done a very good job with this marlins team. We have so many young players that they would joke before the season that we were like having a AAA team. Look at how the Mets and Nationals played. Look at Atlanta. We did better than them and they have a much higher payroll and more experienced players. Was Fredi a perfect manager, no but who is? Look at how well the Yankees played having Girardi. It is not Fredi's fault that we did not make the playoffs. Mr. Loria is slowly turning into a poor man's version of Mr. Steinbrenner (emphasis on the word "poor"). You can not drink Champagne on a beer budget. My hope is that someone with true baseball knowledge, A.K.A. Mr. Beinfest, sits down with Mr. Loria and straightens him out. Loria needs to wake-up and smell the roses - give the guy some public recognition, and move on to 2010.

Uh oh, wait until Erick gets ahold of this thread...

 

For the record, I agree. He has made some boneheaded decisions, no doubt ... but overall he has done a good job with the talent he's been given.

 

 

He's probably busy with all those teams from every level of baseball knocking on his door begging him to coach/manage for them. After all, he had a brother play A ball for a little while.

 

 

Wow...I'm glad you guys are talking about me here, while I'm not even in the thread. And yes...my brother did play in A ball. You?

I'll wait for your answer. I'm sure you're probably busy trying to figure out how to continue being the only person on here now who thinks Bonifacio can still turn into a quality everyday starter at the major league level. Good luck with that.

One of the worst ways to judge a manager is to judge him by his record. People seem to think that since we won 87 games, and we "overachieved", Fredi deserves the credit.

 

 

 

Great post.

One of the worst ways to judge a manager is to judge him by his record. People seem to think that since we won 87 games, and we "overachieved", Fredi deserves the credit.

 

 

 

Great post.

 

 

Like I said, it depends on the circumstances. Just look what Fredi was given to work with. He had one consistent starter all year, the rest of the 4 guys were up and down in the minors. We didn't have a consistent closer. Factor that all in with us having the lowest payroll in baseball, I think the record alone should be very telling on the job Fredi did this year.

 

We won every single season series against the NL East, including the Phillies with that potent offense and the Braves with that great pitching. Yeah if Boston or New York won 90 games, you cannot just look at the record and say they had a good year, b/c they're big market teams with enormous amounts of talent each year. The Marlins don't have that luxury.

One of the worst ways to judge a manager is to judge him by his record. People seem to think that since we won 87 games, and we "overachieved", Fredi deserves the credit.

 

 

 

Great post.

 

 

Like I said, it depends on the circumstances. Just look what Fredi was given to work with. He had one consistent starter all year, the rest of the 4 guys were up and down in the minors. We didn't have a consistent closer. Factor that all in with us having the lowest payroll in baseball, I think the record alone should be very telling on the job Fredi did this year.

 

We won every single season series against the NL East, including the Phillies with that potent offense and the Braves with that great pitching. Yeah if Boston or New York won 90 games, you cannot just look at the record and say they had a good year, b/c they're big market teams with enormous amounts of talent each year. The Marlins don't have that luxury.

 

 

Which is Fredi's fault. Unless if the front office was telling him to continually use 2 of our worst relievers all year in that spot, but there were far better choices, who never got the chance.

One of the worst ways to judge a manager is to judge him by his record. People seem to think that since we won 87 games, and we "overachieved", Fredi deserves the credit.

 

 

 

Great post.

 

 

Like I said, it depends on the circumstances. Just look what Fredi was given to work with. He had one consistent starter all year, the rest of the 4 guys were up and down in the minors. We didn't have a consistent closer. Factor that all in with us having the lowest payroll in baseball, I think the record alone should be very telling on the job Fredi did this year.

 

We won every single season series against the NL East, including the Phillies with that potent offense and the Braves with that great pitching. Yeah if Boston or New York won 90 games, you cannot just look at the record and say they had a good year, b/c they're big market teams with enormous amounts of talent each year. The Marlins don't have that luxury.

 

 

Which is Fredi's fault. Unless if the front office was telling him to continually use 2 of our worst relievers all year in that spot, but there were far better choices, who never got the chance.

Says guy who has said managers aren't really a big deal and that the closer role is overrated and you shouldn't use your best reliever there.

One of the worst ways to judge a manager is to judge him by his record. People seem to think that since we won 87 games, and we "overachieved", Fredi deserves the credit.

 

 

 

Great post.

 

 

Like I said, it depends on the circumstances. Just look what Fredi was given to work with. He had one consistent starter all year, the rest of the 4 guys were up and down in the minors. We didn't have a consistent closer. Factor that all in with us having the lowest payroll in baseball, I think the record alone should be very telling on the job Fredi did this year.

 

We won every single season series against the NL East, including the Phillies with that potent offense and the Braves with that great pitching. Yeah if Boston or New York won 90 games, you cannot just look at the record and say they had a good year, b/c they're big market teams with enormous amounts of talent each year. The Marlins don't have that luxury.

 

 

Which is Fredi's fault. Unless if the front office was telling him to continually use 2 of our worst relievers all year in that spot, but there were far better choices, who never got the chance.

Says guy who has said managers aren't really a big deal and that the closer role is overrated and you shouldn't use your best reliever there.

 

I remember I started a thread in the middle of the season saying Kiko Calero should be our closer, but not many people agreed with me. And I too feel the closer roll is overrated. People seem to feel that a closer should have great stuff and be able to throw in the high 90's. But what's the whole point of closing a game, to get outs right? Calero and Donelley were great at that.

 

But I have a feeling the front office had a lot to do with that. They refused to go out there and sign a reliable reliever. They told Fredi you're two guys are Lindstrom and Nunez, go out and make it work. If Fredi was given something reliable (like in 2003 in Urbina), we would have been a playoff team.

One of the worst ways to judge a manager is to judge him by his record. People seem to think that since we won 87 games, and we "overachieved", Fredi deserves the credit.

 

 

 

Great post.

 

 

Like I said, it depends on the circumstances. Just look what Fredi was given to work with. He had one consistent starter all year, the rest of the 4 guys were up and down in the minors. We didn't have a consistent closer. Factor that all in with us having the lowest payroll in baseball, I think the record alone should be very telling on the job Fredi did this year.

 

We won every single season series against the NL East, including the Phillies with that potent offense and the Braves with that great pitching. Yeah if Boston or New York won 90 games, you cannot just look at the record and say they had a good year, b/c they're big market teams with enormous amounts of talent each year. The Marlins don't have that luxury.

 

 

Which is Fredi's fault. Unless if the front office was telling him to continually use 2 of our worst relievers all year in that spot, but there were far better choices, who never got the chance.

Says guy who has said managers aren't really a big deal and that the closer role is overrated and you shouldn't use your best reliever there.

 

 

I never said we should use our worst relievers there, either.

And managers aren't really a big deal...that's why I've been saying that this is irrelevant the whole time. And that the whole "Fredi exceeded expectations with this team" is bulls*** to me.

I never said we should use our worst relievers there, either.

And managers aren't really a big deal...that's why I've been saying that this is irrelevant the whole time. And that the whole "Fredi exceeded expectations with this team" is bulls*** to me.

 

Going into the season was Matt Lindstrom really our worst reliever? Not really. Yeah, he had the worst season of his career but he did eventually lose the closer's job (though we were rather lucky it only translated to one loss due to him closing). When Leo took over the spot, was he the worst guy in the pen? I don't think so either, we still had guys like Hayden Penn, Chris Leroux, and Cristhian Martinez in there plus guys we couldn't count on yet like Brian Sanches and Tim Wood.

Teams don't overachieve. Either you have the talent or you don't - it doesn't just magically appear by trying harder.

One of the worst ways to judge a manager is to judge him by his record. People seem to think that since we won 87 games, and we "overachieved", Fredi deserves the credit.

 

 

 

Great post.

 

 

Like I said, it depends on the circumstances. Just look what Fredi was given to work with. He had one consistent starter all year, the rest of the 4 guys were up and down in the minors. We didn't have a consistent closer. Factor that all in with us having the lowest payroll in baseball, I think the record alone should be very telling on the job Fredi did this year.

 

We won every single season series against the NL East, including the Phillies with that potent offense and the Braves with that great pitching. Yeah if Boston or New York won 90 games, you cannot just look at the record and say they had a good year, b/c they're big market teams with enormous amounts of talent each year. The Marlins don't have that luxury.

 

 

None of what you just said though had anything to do with what Fredi actually did, it was what he had to work with. 80-85 (probably closer to 85) of the wins the Marlins had should be credited to the players and the front office for putting the team together. A manager may decide a few games at max.

 

If we had a worse team, but still had a payroll in the same area as we did this past year, and we ended the season with 75 wins, would you be saying that Fredi did a worse job as a manager? Would it be Fredi's fault that the front office put out a lower quality team?

 

There are only so many things that a manager has an affect on. Setting lineups, pinch-hitting/running, and bullpen use are the three major ones that come to mind. The first two also don't have nearly the importance as the third one. So when you look at the most important decision a manager has to make (how to handle a bullpen), you ask yourself how did Fredi handle that job, and probably the majority would say that he was poor in that area.

 

How many wins did he actually cause us to win/lose? Nobody knows for sure, but the manager isn't the one who decides the outcome of ballgames, and he shouldn't be the one getting credit for winning 87 games.

I guess when I asked everyone about a "surprise" move of the offseason (which the Marlins always do) no one thought of the manager! SURPRISE!

I never said we should use our worst relievers there, either.

And managers aren't really a big deal...that's why I've been saying that this is irrelevant the whole time. And that the whole "Fredi exceeded expectations with this team" is bulls*** to me.

 

Going into the season was Matt Lindstrom really our worst reliever? Not really. Yeah, he had the worst season of his career but he did eventually lose the closer's job (though we were rather lucky it only translated to one loss due to him closing). When Leo took over the spot, was he the worst guy in the pen? I don't think so either, we still had guys like Hayden Penn, Chris Leroux, and Cristhian Martinez in there plus guys we couldn't count on yet like Brian Sanches and Tim Wood.

 

 

Coming into the year? No.

That doesn't mean he deserved 16 save opportunities...he had a 1.9 WHIP, at one point. That's...terrible.

 

Same with Nunez. After giving up so many HR's, did he really have to stick with him? Especially in September, when we pretty much knew what we had...which were guys who were better at getting outs than Leo Nunez?

 

Also, considering how Fredi used Kiko Calero, we were better off using Kiko in the closer's role. Out of Kiko's 67 games this year, only 24 were considered high leverage situations. Pretty pathetic managing if you ask me, considering that Kiko was, easily, our best reliever. 63% of the games our best reliever appeared in were considered to be, basically, meaningless (low leverage) situations. Again, not good managing.

Fredi was terrible like last year. Our team underachieved. We did as well as we did because of the talent. Just look at the two managers we had when we won the world series. That's the kind of manager we need, Fredi is not that. As a result, he needs to go.