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The Bruce Sherman Thread


Erick
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Just wondering, at what point does the media start treating him like Jeffrey Loria? 

Seems like having Derek Jeter as the face of the organization and then having the first female GM ever has hidden the fact that Sherman hasn’t spent any money at all.

As of right now, it seems like the plan is to add a controllable CF’er by trading one of our pitching prospects. That’s fine, hopefully it works.

But it also makes me wonder why won’t we just spend the money on a CF’er and not trade any of the pitching depth at all?

Don’t we have a new TV deal? New naming rights for the stadium? 

There is currently one guaranteed contract on the team next season that the organization has spent money on in free agency — and it’s Anthony Bass. 

Yet no rumors of going out and spending on a couple of proven hitters which is what the team seemingly needs to be competitive, and perhaps win the division next season. 

When is Sherman going to be held accountable? Derek Jeter, Kim Ng, and Don Mattingly have received their fair share of criticism. Where is Sherman, the guy who actually is responsible for spending?

 

Edited by Erick
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5 minutes ago, Erick said:

Just wondering, at what point does the media start treating him like Jeffrey Loria? 

Seems like having Derek Jeter as the face of the organization and then having the first female GM ever has hidden the fact that Sherman hasn’t spent any money at all.

As of right now, it seems like the plan is to add a controllable CF’er by trading one of our pitching prospects. That’s fine, hopefully it works.

But it also makes me wonder why won’t we just spend the money on a CF’er and not trade any of the pitching depth at all?

Don’t we have a new TV deal? New naming rights for the stadium? 

There is currently one guaranteed contract on the team next season that the organization has spent money on in free agency — and it’s Anthony Bass. 

Yet no rumors of going out and spending on a couple of proven hitters which is what the team seemingly needs to be competitive, and perhaps win the division next season. 

When is Sherman going to be held accountable? Derek Jeter, Kim Ng, and Don Mattingly have received their fair share of criticism. Where is Sherman, the guy who actually is responsible for spending?

 

Center Fielders

Jackie Bradley Jr. (32) — player option
Delino DeShields (29)
Ian Desmond (36) — $15MM club option ($2MM buyout)
Jarrod Dyson (37)
Leury Garcia (31)
Brett Gardner (38)
Billy Hamilton (31)
Odubel Herrera (30) — $11.5MM club option ($2.5MM buyout)
Ender Inciarte (31) — $9MM club option ($1.025MM buyout)
Jake Marisnick (31)
Starling Marte (33)
Kevin Pillar (33)
Danny Santana (31)
Michael A. Taylor (31)

 

 

Because THATS your free agent class in center field

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7 minutes ago, Erick said:

Just wondering, at what point does the media start treating him like Jeffrey Loria? 

Seems like having Derek Jeter as the face of the organization and then having the first female GM ever has hidden the fact that Sherman hasn’t spent any money at all.

As of right now, it seems like the plan is to add a controllable CF’er by trading one of our pitching prospects. That’s fine, hopefully it works.

But it also makes me wonder why won’t we just spend the money on a CF’er and not trade any of the pitching depth at all?

Don’t we have a new TV deal? New naming rights for the stadium? 

There is currently one guaranteed contract on the team next season that the organization has spent money on in free agency — and it’s Anthony Bass. 

Yet no rumors of going out and spending on a couple of proven hitters which is what the team seemingly needs to be competitive, and perhaps win the division next season. 

When is Sherman going to be held accountable? Derek Jeter, Kim Ng, and Don Mattingly have received their fair share of criticism. Where is Sherman, the guy who actually is responsible for spending?

 

But yes, like I've said, Sherman is cheaper and more miserly than Jeff Loria. 

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4 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

Center Fielders

Jackie Bradley Jr. (32) — player option
Delino DeShields (29)
Ian Desmond (36) — $15MM club option ($2MM buyout)
Jarrod Dyson (37)
Leury Garcia (31)
Brett Gardner (38)
Billy Hamilton (31)
Odubel Herrera (30) — $11.5MM club option ($2.5MM buyout)
Ender Inciarte (31) — $9MM club option ($1.025MM buyout)
Jake Marisnick (31)
Starling Marte (33)
Kevin Pillar (33)
Danny Santana (31)
Michael A. Taylor (31)

 

 

Because THATS your free agent class in center field

Your list doesn’t include Chris Taylor who is capable of playing CF and is a solid player.

Fair enough though, the team also needs a catcher. There hasn’t been any talk of signing one either though. Instead the rumor from Mish is that we’d be interested in trading for Jacob Stallings who doesn’t seem to be better than some of the free agent catchers.

My point is, it seems like most of the rumors involve trades rather than spending. And we’re at the point of the rebuild, with a new TV deal, stadium naming rights, and…basically no long-term commitments on the current team, where we should be spending to fill some holes. 

How about spending to upgrade the infielders too? It’s not as if our infield is awesome, just less shitty than the outfielders.

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Just now, Erick said:

Your list doesn’t include Chris Taylor who is capable of playing CF and is a solid player.

Fair enough though, the team also needs a catcher. There hasn’t been any talk of signing one either though. Instead the rumor from Mish is that we’d be interested in trading for Jacob Stallings who doesn’t seem to be better than some of the free agent catchers.

My point is, it seems like most of the rumors involve trades rather than spending. And we’re at the point of the rebuild, with a new TV deal, stadium naming rights, and…basically no long-term commitments on the current team, where we should be spending to fill some holes. 

How about spending to upgrade the infielders too? It’s not as if our infield is awesome, just less shitty than the outfielders.

The catcher free agent market is even less appealing.

Taylor I can't see leaving the Dodgers though.  Also not really sure you want him in CF full time in general, but thats a different story.

Marlins would be far better off trading for a CF with their pitching depth.

Signing Sandy to an extension.

Seeing if Rogers would be open to an early extension and signing him.

Signing Pablo to an extension.

Going from there.

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5 minutes ago, Erick said:

Your list doesn’t include Chris Taylor who is capable of playing CF and is a solid player.

Fair enough though, the team also needs a catcher. There hasn’t been any talk of signing one either though. Instead the rumor from Mish is that we’d be interested in trading for Jacob Stallings who doesn’t seem to be better than some of the free agent catchers.

My point is, it seems like most of the rumors involve trades rather than spending. And we’re at the point of the rebuild, with a new TV deal, stadium naming rights, and…basically no long-term commitments on the current team, where we should be spending to fill some holes. 

How about spending to upgrade the infielders too? It’s not as if our infield is awesome, just less shitty than the outfielders.

They should be all in for Correa this winter.

Whether they will or won't remains to be seen. 

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9 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

The catcher free agent market is even less appealing.

Taylor I can't see leaving the Dodgers though.  Also not really sure you want him in CF full time in general, but thats a different story.

Marlins would be far better off trading for a CF with their pitching depth.

Signing Sandy to an extension.

Seeing if Rogers would be open to an early extension and signing him.

Signing Pablo to an extension.

Going from there.

What about signing a bat like Eduardo Escobar or Kyle Seager for 1-2 years to play 3B, and moving Brian Anderson back to RF (he’s not the long-term 3B anyway)? That would fill a hole in the OF and isn’t even that expensive. And then all of the sudden you don’t have to worry about our favorite player, Isan Diaz, appearing in the lineup. 

They should spend some money. I wonder how much they’d be willing to spend payroll wise in 2022. This was reported basically every year Loria was the owner, but Sherman is getting a pass imo. If there’s no spending for the 2022 season, that’s a problem.

 

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7 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

They should be all in for Correa this winter.

Whether they will or won't remains to be seen. 

We all know that’s not happening. 

I’m basically asking for mid-tier signings at this point. Miguel Rojas will be the SS next season, it seems. 

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23 minutes ago, Erick said:

Just wondering, at what point does the media start treating him like Jeffrey Loria? 

Seems like having Derek Jeter as the face of the organization and then having the first female GM ever has hidden the fact that Sherman hasn’t spent any money at all.

As of right now, it seems like the plan is to add a controllable CF’er by trading one of our pitching prospects. That’s fine, hopefully it works.

But it also makes me wonder why won’t we just spend the money on a CF’er and not trade any of the pitching depth at all?

Don’t we have a new TV deal? New naming rights for the stadium? 

There is currently one guaranteed contract on the team next season that the organization has spent money on in free agency — and it’s Anthony Bass. 

Yet no rumors of going out and spending on a couple of proven hitters which is what the team seemingly needs to be competitive, and perhaps win the division next season. 

When is Sherman going to be held accountable? Derek Jeter, Kim Ng, and Don Mattingly have received their fair share of criticism. Where is Sherman, the guy who actually is responsible for spending?

 

 

They're not going to treat him like Loria because he's hands off.  He may not have spent much money (yet?), but he's not cheap while also meddling in deals, making his own deals, going over the FO's head, etc.  So for that alone, he won't get treated like Loria.

 

While I'm sure he gives Jeter a budget range, I also think it goes the other way too - Jeter says "we can spend this amount, is that ok?" - while also being financially responsible.  Remember Jeter has contract incentives if the team is profitable, so it's in his interest to keep the budget within reason too.

 

While I think they should've signed more pieces last offseason in a down market after the pandemic, I also understand them being cautious finance wise after no revenues or revenue sharing after last season.  And with the naming rights and TV deals coming to the wire before this season started, it's possible they simply didn't have that infusion of funds in time enough to actually spend - and they didn't want to without know about those contracts.

 

I'm not excusing their lack of spending completely, I'm just understanding why things have been done so far after last season, and it does sound like they're trying to extend guys.   That said, with Chen off the books and the TV/naming deals now, if they don't throw out some extensions and sign a big guy or two this offseason, it's going to be hard to follow them regularly anymore.  The excuses are gone for me.

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Loria was also an asshole to the media and gave a bad vibe and people just didn't like "him." Samson the same. People saw them and it was almost like their faces just made people upset.

Bruce Sherman hasn't done anything for people to dislike "him." 

I think this goes a long way in the people's perception. Sherman probably never gets treated the way Loria did. Most people don't even know who Sherman is or what he looks like. Everyone knew Loria and Samson, while Hill and Beinfest were less known. Jeter and Ng are the faces of this current front office. Tbh most team's owners are unrecognizable to most people. It's usually the GM or baseball ops president who is the face of each team. 

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Small market baseball teams are like markets. They have a rise and a fall and then repeat the cycle. Judging the spending when we are not even halfway through the first cycle is not very fair. It would be like judging economic policy during just a part of the business cycle. This ownership has already gone above and beyond what Loria would do. They have increased spending on international free agents, they push the limits of the draft pool, and they have invested more into the community. Hell, they just made a trade with the Athletics where the Marlins paid money to get a better prospect! And would Loria have even exercised the option for Marte in the first place? I seem to remember Loria signing a bunch of back loaded deals that he never had to pay the bulk of (either due to trades or selling the team). That should not really count as "spending money" if you don't have to foot the bulk of it.

 The only things they have not done yet is invest in free agents or sign anyone to extensions. I understand that these are the most important, but what if they are not at the right point in the cycle of rebuilding? I know we made the playoffs, but what if the management thought it was more of a fluke and opted to proceed how they would have if they had not made the playoffs? Add in the pandemic and it gets harder to do things. Wait for the full cycle to go through. If they begin a new rebuild (by trading off established starters like Sandy, Pablo, BA etc. for a boat load of non MLB ready prospects) without ever spending a decent amount of extensions or FA, then we can revisit this topic.

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4 hours ago, Erick said:

Just wondering, at what point does the media start treating him like Jeffrey Loria? 

Seems like having Derek Jeter as the face of the organization and then having the first female GM ever has hidden the fact that Sherman hasn’t spent any money at all.

As of right now, it seems like the plan is to add a controllable CF’er by trading one of our pitching prospects. That’s fine, hopefully it works.

But it also makes me wonder why won’t we just spend the money on a CF’er and not trade any of the pitching depth at all?

Don’t we have a new TV deal? New naming rights for the stadium? 

There is currently one guaranteed contract on the team next season that the organization has spent money on in free agency — and it’s Anthony Bass. 

Yet no rumors of going out and spending on a couple of proven hitters which is what the team seemingly needs to be competitive, and perhaps win the division next season. 

When is Sherman going to be held accountable? Derek Jeter, Kim Ng, and Don Mattingly have received their fair share of criticism. Where is Sherman, the guy who actually is responsible for spending?

 

tenor.gif

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You know what sucks, the fact this team needs power, a CF and a C, and we had that in the winter of 2017 and traded it for a bag of balls at this point.

Yelich, Realmutto, and Stanton would really good on this team... assuming everything else still happened w Ozuna, Gordon and others.

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6 minutes ago, Piazza31 said:

You know what sucks, the fact this team needs power, a CF and a C, and we had that in the winter of 2017 and traded it for a bag of balls at this point.

Yelich, Realmutto, and Stanton would really good on this team... assuming everything else still happened w Ozuna, Gordon and others.

Crazy thing is ... yeah.

I've defended a bit here and there. The team has spent in other areas. But where it matters most? At the Major League level? Eh ...

At this point, yeah, we could have just kept Yelich and Realmuto ... Stanton could have been dealt still, honestly, but kept Yelich and Realmuto and built around them.

We'd still have ...

 - Sandy (Ozuna trade)

 - Jazz (via Gallen / Ozuna trades)

 - Pablo (acquired in David Phelps trade)

 - Rogers ('17 draft)

 - Aguilar probably still comes here (FA signing)

 - Rojas

 - BA

Etc etc.

Man ... and I want the guys from the Yelich trade to succeed, but, man ...

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20 minutes ago, Michael said:

Crazy thing is ... yeah.

I've defended a bit here and there. The team has spent in other areas. But where it matters most? At the Major League level? Eh ...

At this point, yeah, we could have just kept Yelich and Realmuto ... Stanton could have been dealt still, honestly, but kept Yelich and Realmuto and built around them.

We'd still have ...

 - Sandy (Ozuna trade)

 - Jazz (via Gallen / Ozuna trades)

 - Pablo (acquired in David Phelps trade)

 - Rogers ('17 draft)

 - Aguilar probably still comes here (FA signing)

 - Rojas

 - BA

Etc etc.

Man ... and I want the guys from the Yelich trade to succeed, but, man ...

Realmuto would have left in FA and Yelich who didn't really break out until he got the Milwaukee is having a mediocre year this year. I agree that the Yelich deal was a complete failure, but adding him to this team doesn't make us a contender. Thinking he does is as wishful as thinking that adding 2 pitchers to the 2017 team makes them a contender. Move on.

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5 minutes ago, FishFan95 said:

Realmuto would have left in FA and Yelich who didn't really break out until he got the Milwaukee is having a mediocre year this year. I agree that the Yelich deal was a complete failure, but adding him to this team doesn't make us a contender. Thinking he does is as wishful as thinking that adding 2 pitchers to the 2017 team makes them a contender. Move on.

You're probably right about JT still leaving in FA, buuut who knows for sure? Maybe he sticks around, sees the process, likes what he sees, etc.

Alfaro's had a couple walkoffs for us and that's about it. Sixto's essentially been a non-factor. Will Stewart.

Yelich was still on a very team friendly deal and would be still, I believe, for another couple years.

Eh!

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22 minutes ago, Michael said:

Crazy thing is ... yeah.

I've defended a bit here and there. The team has spent in other areas. But where it matters most? At the Major League level? Eh ...

At this point, yeah, we could have just kept Yelich and Realmuto ... Stanton could have been dealt still, honestly, but kept Yelich and Realmuto and built around them.

We'd still have ...

 - Sandy (Ozuna trade)

 - Jazz (via Gallen / Ozuna trades)

 - Pablo (acquired in David Phelps trade)

 - Rogers ('17 draft)

 - Aguilar probably still comes here (FA signing)

 - Rojas

 - BA

Etc etc.

Man ... and I want the guys from the Yelich trade to succeed, but, man ...

Don't forget they could have very easily had Sixto AND JT.  they keep getting excited over "layering minor league depth" but that don't do shit to bring in casual fans. They've certainly modernized the team a lot more in terms of advanced scouting and spending international poop money but they haven't done shit all at the major league level yet. Literally, nothing except be cheapskates with their contract offers to Marte and JT. Here's hoping the "depth" in the minors is now to their satisfaction and they can turn their money and time to making improvements at the major league level. I really hope that's all this shit show has been.

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It is easy to reverse trades that did not work out. But, while the Yelich trade was terrible and you reverse that if you can, I would rather have Marte next season than Yelich at this point. As for catcher, the most important position, it was a mistake that they did not retain JT. I was a firm supporter of signing JT last offseason. He is worth it. Even an overpay. That is how valuable a good catcher is. But, you can't dwell on the past.

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8 minutes ago, hovertical said:

Don't forget they could have very easily had Sixto AND JT.  they keep getting excited over "layering minor league depth" but that don't do shit to bring in casual fans. They've certainly modernized the team a lot more in terms of advanced scouting and spending international poop money but they haven't done shit all at the major league level yet. Literally, nothing except be cheapskates with their contract offers to Marte and JT. Here's hoping the "depth" in the minors is now to their satisfaction and they can turn their money and time to making improvements at the major league level. I really hope that's all this shit show has been.

That is true.

As for cheapskate offers - Marte, yes. Realmuto - turned out we had the second highest offer. (shrug) Not while he was a free agent but our second extension offer. Kinda nuts, really.

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1 minute ago, FishFan95 said:

It is easy to reverse trades that did not work out. But, while the Yelich trade was terrible and you reverse that if you can, I would rather have Marte next season than Yelich at this point. As for catcher, the most important position, it was a mistake that they did not retain JT. I was a firm supporter of signing JT last offseason. He is worth it. Even an overpay. That is how valuable a good catcher is. But, you can't dwell on the past.

Can't dwell on the past? While I'm not going to be sipping wine and crying over a picture of JT - I will remember those failures becauae that's also how you determine patterns with ownership. So far, they've been cheap af when it comes to paying GOOD MLB players and that's a real cause for concern. While we all know they've been rebuilding - pitching side is done. They need some big league ready bats that will play in their cavernous home. They've completely failed in that regard so far. But as has been said 900 times by each of us - this coming off-season will be the big reveal on how committed they are to winning.

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1 hour ago, FishFan95 said:

Small market baseball teams are like markets. They have a rise and a fall and then repeat the cycle. Judging the spending when we are not even halfway through the first cycle is not very fair. It would be like judging economic policy during just a part of the business cycle. This ownership has already gone above and beyond what Loria would do. They have increased spending on international free agents, they push the limits of the draft pool, and they have invested more into the community. Hell, they just made a trade with the Athletics where the Marlins paid money to get a better prospect! And would Loria have even exercised the option for Marte in the first place? I seem to remember Loria signing a bunch of back loaded deals that he never had to pay the bulk of (either due to trades or selling the team). That should not really count as "spending money" if you don't have to foot the bulk of it.

 The only things they have not done yet is invest in free agents or sign anyone to extensions. I understand that these are the most important, but what if they are not at the right point in the cycle of rebuilding? I know we made the playoffs, but what if the management thought it was more of a fluke and opted to proceed how they would have if they had not made the playoffs? Add in the pandemic and it gets harder to do things. Wait for the full cycle to go through. If they begin a new rebuild (by trading off established starters like Sandy, Pablo, BA etc. for a boat load of non MLB ready prospects) without ever spending a decent amount of extensions or FA, then we can revisit this topic.

There are 8 markets smaller than Miami.

This is the biggest false narrative in all of sports.

The Marlins do not play in some small market.  Its the 18th biggest market in America.

The Marlins are a low revenue club, due in large to their own ineptitude over years of mis management that the new Ownership is hopefully on the path to resolving.  

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1 minute ago, Das Texan said:

There are 8 markets smaller than Miami.

This is the biggest false narrative in all of sports.

The Marlins do not play in some small market.  Its the 18th biggest market in America.

The Marlins are a low revenue club, due in large to their own ineptitude over years of mis management that the new Ownership is hopefully on the path to resolving.  

The United States is the largest "Market" in the world. At the same time, you could sell your opinions, but no one would buy. It doesn't matter how many people are there. It doesn't matter how much money those people have. The market is defined by the number of people willing to buy. Not enough people are buying in south Florida, thus it is a small market.

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6 hours ago, FishFan95 said:

Small market baseball teams are like markets. They have a rise and a fall and then repeat the cycle. Judging the spending when we are not even halfway through the first cycle is not very fair. It would be like judging economic policy during just a part of the business cycle. This ownership has already gone above and beyond what Loria would do. They have increased spending on international free agents, they push the limits of the draft pool, and they have invested more into the community. Hell, they just made a trade with the Athletics where the Marlins paid money to get a better prospect! And would Loria have even exercised the option for Marte in the first place? I seem to remember Loria signing a bunch of back loaded deals that he never had to pay the bulk of (either due to trades or selling the team). That should not really count as "spending money" if you don't have to foot the bulk of it.

 The only things they have not done yet is invest in free agents or sign anyone to extensions. I understand that these are the most important, but what if they are not at the right point in the cycle of rebuilding? I know we made the playoffs, but what if the management thought it was more of a fluke and opted to proceed how they would have if they had not made the playoffs? Add in the pandemic and it gets harder to do things. Wait for the full cycle to go through. If they begin a new rebuild (by trading off established starters like Sandy, Pablo, BA etc. for a boat load of non MLB ready prospects) without ever spending a decent amount of extensions or FA, then we can revisit this topic.

 

I can agree with what you're saying.   But we shall see what they do.

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6 hours ago, FishFan95 said:

The United States is the largest "Market" in the world. At the same time, you could sell your opinions, but no one would buy. It doesn't matter how many people are there. It doesn't matter how much money those people have. The market is defined by the number of people willing to buy. Not enough people are buying in south Florida, thus it is a small market.

my head hurts.

real statistics and figures are difficult to some people I guess. 

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