Just now, Michael said:

Except when it mattered.

bingo.  anyone who watched the bulk of the games know that that bullpen was NOT great at getting guys out and closing out innings.  they might have been good in mop up work when it no longer mattered but they desperately need some arms who can strike guys out and not just get a ground ball that brings the guy in from 3rd on a fielder's choice.

5 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

Bullpen was top 10 in baseball last year. 

 

WAR is a counting stat so the Marlins pen got a lot more chances to accumulate WAR because of the bullpen games and the Mattingly 4th inning double switches. So yeah, the Marlins bullpen was "top 10" in WAR, but watching games made it painfully obvious that the bullpen was a liability and cost us many wins throughout the year.

 

In other words,

 

"not when it mattered."

1 hour ago, CyggyMarlin said:

They say they have money to spend and they want to win, but when the same glaring roster issues from last season are still not addressed, all those pre-lockout transactions mean nothing unfortunately.  And it's not just fan base morale getting a boost, think of how the Marlins players will respond knowing that Sherman & Co are going out to get players to make them close to the same level as the Phillies, Mets & Braves

I wouldn't say the moves mean nothing, but it's not like they have any legit CF prospects, so unless they make a big move, then they're going to be in the exact same position a year from now.

22 minutes ago, SongInTheAir said:

WAR is a counting stat so the Marlins pen got a lot more chances to accumulate WAR because of the bullpen games and the Mattingly 4th inning double switches. So yeah, the Marlins bullpen was "top 10" in WAR, but watching games made it painfully obvious that the bullpen was a liability and cost us many wins throughout the year.

 

In other words,

 

"not when it mattered."

Yeah...that’s not a top 10 bullpen in baseball. If anyone truly believes that, they’re convincing themselves 

29 minutes ago, marlins_09 said:

Yeah...that’s not a top 10 bullpen in baseball. If anyone truly believes that, they’re convincing themselves 

Outside of Anthony Bender, there isn't a single guy in the Marlins bullpen who I wouldn't be excited to face if I were a major league hitter.

1 hour ago, Michael said:

Except when it mattered.

Marlins were 1 BS under league average last year. So average "when it mattered."

We remember the bad times much more than the good ones. That's my permanent bullpen position.

But they could use another arm as the more the merrier. 

1 hour ago, SongInTheAir said:

WAR is a counting stat so the Marlins pen got a lot more chances to accumulate WAR because of the bullpen games and the Mattingly 4th inning double switches. So yeah, the Marlins bullpen was "top 10" in WAR, but watching games made it painfully obvious that the bullpen was a liability and cost us many wins throughout the year.

 

In other words,

 

"not when it mattered."

The Marlins were 7th in bullpen innings, but that translated to 28 innings over a median club. So 28 innings isn't skewing the stats.

The bullpen was very good last year.

25 minutes ago, SongInTheAir said:

Outside of Anthony Bender, there isn't a single guy in the Marlins bullpen who I wouldn't be excited to face if I were a major league hitter.

Yep. And to be honest, they completely lucked into Bender. 

This goes back to my main issue with this offseason, the lack of plan/vision. You’re building a team to win with pitching. There’s a clear path to being a dangerous team; 6-7 innings of Sandy & Co., followed by 2-3 shutdown guys out of the pen. Bender is fine as one of the high leverage guys. You need 2 more. Ideally one lefty, one righty. 
 

Instead, teams are going to be licking their chops waiting for the SP to come out of the game 

 

1 minute ago, MarlinsLou said:

Marlins were 1 BS under league average last year. So average "when it mattered."

We remember the bad times much more than the good ones. That's my permanent bullpen position.

But they could use another arm as the more the merrier. 

Alright. How about all the games where it was within reach and the bullpen made it ... not within reach? If this bullpen was truly even an average one, we wouldn't have lost 95 games last year.

2 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

Marlins were 1 BS under league average last year. So average "when it mattered."

We remember the bad times much more than the good ones. That's my permanent bullpen position.

But they could use another arm as the more the merrier. 

The marlins also lost a lot of games last year. I’d be more curious to see the BS% number, as opposed to a sum statistic. I’d imagine our save opportunities were quite a few lower than “league average”.

Also, blow saves only representing 1 inning worth of issues. How about the times we gave up runs in the 7th, 8th, maybe not even ahead but tied or only trailing by 1 where the bullpen couldn’t keep it close? 

Again, if you look at this group and think it’s even a league average bullpen, idk what to tell ya 

3 minutes ago, Michael said:

Alright. How about all the games where it was within reach and the bullpen made it ... not within reach? If this bullpen was truly even an average one, we wouldn't have lost 95 games last year.

The lost 95 games because they had the 6th worst group of position players.

They were 15th in pitching. Starters 17th, bullpen 7th.

Major growth is coming in both areas.

3 minutes ago, marlins_09 said:

The marlins also lost a lot of games last year. I’d be more curious to see the BS% number, as opposed to a sum statistic. I’d imagine our save opportunities were quite a few lower than “league average”.

Also, blow saves only representing 1 inning worth of issues. How about the times we gave up runs in the 7th, 8th, maybe not even ahead but tied or only trailing by 1 where the bullpen couldn’t keep it close? 

Again, if you look at this group and think it’s even a league average bullpen, idk what to tell ya 

Blown saves aren't solely save opportunities and you get them from blowing holds also

However, the issue is - they need Floro, Cabrera, and Meyer (or Hernandez), as well as likely Sixto, throwing big innings and that is yet to be seen.

We're all on the same page if this pen is Bender, Bleier, Pop, Okert, Head, Armstrong, Yacabonis, and Neidert. Or whatever it is. That is *not good.*

However Floro, Bender, Cabrera, Meyer (or Hernandez), Pop, Bleier, Okert..... and Bednar/Sulser/Trivino or Sixto midseason. All of a sudden that is potentially exceptional. That's where this needs to trend.

14 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

Blown saves aren't solely save opportunities and you get them from blowing holds also

However, the issue is - they need Floro, Cabrera, and Meyer (or Hernandez), as well as likely Sixto, throwing big innings and that is yet to be seen.

We're all on the same page if this pen is Bender, Bleier, Pop, Okert, Head, Armstrong, Yacabonis, and Neidert. Or whatever it is. That is *not good.*

However Floro, Bender, Cabrera, Meyer (or Hernandez), Pop, Bleier, Okert..... and Bednar/Sulser/Trivino or Sixto midseason. All of a sudden that is potentially exceptional. That's where this needs to trend.

Cabrera needs to be in the rotation, no exceptions. he should not be considered a bullpen option. 

You’re looking at Meyer and Elieser as realistic internal bullpen options. Do you really want Meyer pitching out of the pen in a significant role? In September? Maybe. Counting on him to be a high leverage arm for you in June/July? That’s just poor planning. Having to rely on a blue chip SP prospect as your bullpen upgrade is just....a bad use of resources

10 minutes ago, marlins_09 said:

Yep. And to be honest, they completely lucked into Bender. 

And they lucked into Nick Anderson (turned into Jesus Sanchez). Nick Wittgren is solid. Kintzler was good the one year. Lucked into Bleier I guess. May have lucked into Pop. And Okert. Trevor Richards was in the independent league. Lucked into Yimi. Floro was awesome even if Vesia is good (who they also identified). Romo solid (got Lewin). Jarlin was solid the one year. Steckenrider is good and sad they let him go.

These guys find relievers. Yes MANY dudes and Brad Hand goes poof, but they'll find another Bender.

We can bitch about a lot of things, but not a top 10 2021 bullpen.

Just now, MarlinsLou said:

And they lucked into Nick Anderson (turned into Jesus Sanchez). Nick Wittgren is solid. Kintzler was good the one year. Lucked into Bleier I guess. May have lucked into Pop. And Okert. Trevor Richards was in the independent league. Lucked into Yimi. Floro was awesome even if Vesia is good (who they also identified). Romo solid (got Lewin). Jarlin was solid the one year. Steckenrider is good and sad they let him go.

These guys find relievers. Yes MANY dudes and Brad Hand goes poof, but they'll find another Bender.

We can bitch about a lot of things, but not a top 10 2021 bullpen.

Kim didnt luck into Trevor Richards. Kim didn’t find Vesia. Kim has identified Anthony Bass. That should tell you all you need to know. 

 

Again, if you think this is truly a top 10 bullpen, more power to ya. I’ll check the in-game thread here in roughly 2 weeks

25 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

The lost 95 games because they had the 6th worst group of position players.

They were 15th in pitching. Starters 17th, bullpen 7th.

Major growth is coming in both areas.

Gotta remember for a lot of the season, two games a week were "bullpen games" for ... whatever reason.

So those "starters" in a lot of games were relievers, too.

2 minutes ago, marlins_09 said:

Cabrera needs to be in the rotation, no exceptions. he should not be considered a bullpen option. 

You’re looking at Meyer and Elieser as realistic internal bullpen options. Do you really want Meyer pitching out of the pen in a significant role? In September? Maybe. Counting on him to be a high leverage arm for you in June/July? That’s just poor planning. Having to rely on a blue chip SP prospect as your bullpen upgrade is just....a bad use of resources

Disagree entirely. See, Tampa.

Cabrera should be up throwing 2-3 inning bursts and stretch him out in July to take over for Hernandez (who then shifts to bullpen). He can throw 125 innings at the MLB level this year with a plan. See, Johan Santana who they did this with for two seasons.

Yes I want Meyer throwing 125+ innings at the MLB level. This can be in 2-4 inning bursts. What is the big deal? We have a DH now. There are no hitting issues. This is assuming he's a top 13 arm. 

I don't believe in traditional starter/reliever roles. Throw your best innings at all times.

2 minutes ago, marlins_09 said:

Kim didnt luck into Trevor Richards. Kim didn’t find Vesia. Kim has identified Anthony Bass. That should tell you all you need to know. 

 

Again, if you think this is truly a top 10 bullpen, more power to ya. I’ll check the in-game thread here in roughly 2 weeks

It's organizational - they found Thompson last year. Now they have Stallings. Good moves? Poteet has turned into something. What is being missed here? Hernandez was even a R5 pick. People exist in this franchise prior to Kim.

They also aren't throwing the bullpen they should, and Floro/Sixto are hurt. Plus I do keep saying a nice Bednar/Trivino/Sulser upgrade would be great.

Dylan Floro is not a closer for a playoff team. Dylan Floro is the kind of closer a 100-loss team just kind of deals with throughout the season.

Just now, SongInTheAir said:

Dylan Floro is not a closer for a playoff team. Dylan Floro is the kind of closer a 100-loss team just kind of deals with throughout the season.

18th best RP in baseball last year and at worst you can scale him down to the 30s as its very close. Nothing is wrong with Floro. He's a good top 3 righty in the bullpen. So is Bender. Could they use another? Of course?

How about move Hernandez to the bullpen and make Cabrera/Meyer the combined 5th SP, but they each throw about 3-4 inning bursts. Get them to 250-270 innings combined. Organize the throwing plan however you like. This isn't hurting their development getting MLB hitters out and they get the innings they need. They can be stretched out as a traditional starter spring training 2023 easily. McClanahan got 123 innings last year for the Rays. He didn't average 5 innings an appearance. Why can't this be Cabrera or Meyer versus Yacabonis and Armstrong being "relievers."

Throw the best innings. Win games. 

Ya know what.

I'm curious.

Off of what information are you basing these claims? 7th best bullpen and Floro being the 18th best reliever.

Only asking.

7 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

18th best RP in baseball last year and at worst you can scale him down to the 30s as its very close. Nothing is wrong with Floro. He's a good top 3 righty in the bullpen. So is Bender. Could they use another? Of course?

What in the world metric are you using that puts Floro 18th at anything?

Is this a bit? Like, it *is* April Fools Day...

Dylan Floro had the 17th highest fWAR in 2021. 

Single season reliever WAR is an atrocious way to judge how good a pitcher was and an even worse way to predict future results. Based on last season's fWAR, Dylan Floro is a better pitcher than:

 

-Devin Williams

-Collin McHugh

-Paul Sewald

-AJ Minter

-Matt Barnes

-Garrett Crochet

-Tyler Rogers

-Jordan Romano

-Jake McGee

-Kendall Graveman

-Mark Melancon

-Anthony Bender

-Aroldis Chapman

-Adam Ottavino

-Gregory Soto

 

and many, many more.

I would take any of the guys on that list over Floro. So much so, that I would trade Floro and a prospect for quite a few of them. 

10 minutes ago, SongInTheAir said:

Dylan Floro had the 17th highest fWAR in 2021. 

Single season reliever WAR is an atrocious way to judge how good a pitcher was and an even worse way to predict future results. Based on last season's fWAR, Dylan Floro is a better pitcher than:

 

-Devin Williams

-Collin McHugh

-Paul Sewald

-AJ Minter

-Matt Barnes

-Garrett Crochet

-Tyler Rogers

-Jordan Romano

-Jake McGee

-Kendall Graveman

-Mark Melancon

-Anthony Bender

-Aroldis Chapman

-Adam Ottavino

-Gregory Soto

 

and many, many more.

I would take any of the guys on that list over Floro. So much so, that I would trade Floro and a prospect for quite a few of them. 

Floro at $2m is much better than Chapman at $17m bucks. Much. Much. Much. Better.

There are a lot of issues with some of these, but yes I'd take Devin Williams and more years of control over Floro absolutely. Bender also. Floro is NOT an asshole or a bad pitcher. I don't understand the hatred. He's fine. He performed as likely a top 18-40 RP last year. Like I said above as yes it's difficult and negligible over minor innings at some point.

What is wrong with this:

Sandy 200
Rogers 175
Luzardo 150
Pablo 150
Meyer 125
Cabrera 125
Hernandez 125
=1,050 IP

This is 400 more innings for Floro, Bender, Bleier, and Pop (this is like 200 already), and less than 200 for ideally another RP (Bednar! Sulser! Trvino!) and the likes of Okert, Head, Poteet, SIXTO, and the camp arm crew. This is basically mop up at this point.

Why are we talking about bullpens when we have a DH and double switches. We don't need to pull these guys for a dreaded bottom 6 offense for desperation pinch hits like last year. Those days are over.

Let's throw the absolute best 1450 innings imaginable. This is what I am saying. The above is respective of all of their innings caps/arm development, and keeping Meyer down for say four starts before the call up for service time reasons (Meyer can probably throw 140+). These innings can be worked out. This is not an insurmountable juggling act.