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Hot Stove (2021-2022 offseason)

TaiwanMarlins

By TaiwanMarlins
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SongInTheAir MVP

SongInTheAir

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

Floro at $2m is much better than Chapman at $17m bucks. Much. Much. Much. Better.

There are a lot of issues with some of these, but yes I'd take Devin Williams and more years of control over Floro absolutely. Bender also. Floro is NOT an asshole or a bad pitcher. I don't understand the hatred. He's fine. He performed as likely a top 18-40 RP last year. Like I said above as yes it's difficult and negligible over minor innings at some point.

What is wrong with this:

Sandy 200
Rogers 175
Luzardo 150
Pablo 150
Meyer 125
Cabrera 125
Hernandez 125
=1,050 IP

This is 400 more innings for Floro, Bender, Bleier, and Pop (this is like 200 already), and less than 200 for ideally another RP (Bednar! Sulser! Trvino!) and the likes of Okert, Head, Poteet, SIXTO, and the camp arm crew. This is basically mop up at this point.

Why are we talking about bullpens when we have a DH and double switches. We don't need to pull these guys for a dreaded bottom 6 offense for desperation pinch hits like last year. Those days are over.

Let's throw the absolute best 1450 innings imaginable. This is what I am saying. The above is respective of all of their innings caps/arm development, and keeping Meyer down for say four starts before the call up for service time reasons (Meyer can probably throw 140+). These innings can be worked out. This is not an insurmountable juggling act.

I 100% agree that I would rather have Floro for $2m than Chapman at $17 and that I wouldn't want to pay Kimbrel $17m if it were my money, but that's the thing: it's not my money. Sherman giving, let's say Kenley Jansen a 1 year, $50 million contract wouldn't have changed Sherman's life whatsoever, except that he would own a better baseball team.

I am underrating Floro, I admit it. I looked into his numbers and his is a lot better than I thought he was. He's still absolutely not the kind of guy you want closing games though. Floro as a middle reliever/setup man? Excellent. Floro as a closer? Nah dog. 

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Entendu All-Star

Entendu

Posted
Posted
Just now, SonOfJack said:

While true it doesn't excuse them for ignoring the pen this off-season.

I wouldn't trade a prospect for a reliever unless it was an elite top 5 reliever.

I also wouldn't sacrifice resources to build a great bullpen and cross my arms and say "aaah, mission accomplished"

This is likely going to be like it is most years, where we mix and match and adjust on the fly. What you can't do is have a bullpen that's atrocious, where a new reliever or two mid season can't fix it. But the Marlins don't have that. 

 

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MarlinsLou All-Star

MarlinsLou

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, SongInTheAir said:

I 100% agree that I would rather have Floro for $2m than Chapman at $17 and that I wouldn't want to pay Kimbrel $17m if it were my money, but that's the thing: it's not my money. Sherman giving, let's say Kenley Jansen a 1 year, $50 million contract wouldn't have changed Sherman's life whatsoever, except that he would own a better baseball team.

I am underrating Floro, I admit it. I looked into his numbers and his is a lot better than I thought he was. He's still absolutely not the kind of guy you want closing games though. Floro as a middle reliever/setup man? Excellent. Floro as a closer? Nah dog. 

I'd have closer by committee to use your best relievers in pressure spots. I advocate throwing Bender/Floro in the 6th if dudes are on base and Bryce is up. Deal with "Yacabonis" in the 9th if you get there. How the saves are distributed? Who cares. Be smart and throw your best guys always.

This is why I'd love Cabrera and Meyer in the pen. You're talking every other day one of them is coming in and taking out a run through the lineup. See the innings distribution above. If we're always pulling Pablo/Luzardo in 5+ and Hernandez 4+, Meyer and Cabrera effectively can double up after one of them and get you to the 8th/9th inning. 

Maybe think about it this way

Sandy (200 IP)
Rogers (175 IP)
Pablo (150 IP) 
Luzardo 4+ innings - > Meyer 3+ innings (275 IP)
Hernandez  4+ innings - > Cabrera 3+ innings (250 IP)
 

This is then 400 innings for the 6 man bullpen, which is a lot, but the idea is Floro/Bender/Bleier/Pop eat 200+ of these, and you rotate the hell out of those last two spots to keep guys fresh. It's basically mop up at this point. You can also be strategic on schedule/off days/extra roster spot for double headers and have that "Poteet" arm ready for those days to start eating away at these innings you need.

It'll work. However, they don't seem interested.

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MarlinsLou All-Star

MarlinsLou

Posted
Posted
Just now, Entendu said:

I wouldn't trade a prospect for a reliever unless it was an elite top 5 reliever.

I also wouldn't sacrifice resources to build a great bullpen and cross my arms and say "aaah, mission accomplished"

This is likely going to be like it is most years, where we mix and match and adjust on the fly. What you can't do is have a bullpen that's atrocious, where a new reliever or two mid season can't fix it. But the Marlins don't have that. 

 

That's why you get Bednar, Trivino, or Sulser attached to the CF. We'll give you the 3-4 top 100ish guys, but you better juice that with the RELIEVER. We're not talking Hader here even if those guys are good. Trivino is in arbitration and Sulser is older.

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SongInTheAir MVP

SongInTheAir

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, MarlinsLou said:

I'd have closer by committee to use your best relievers in pressure spots. I advocate throwing Bender/Floro in the 6th if dudes are on base and Bryce is up. Deal with "Yacabonis" in the 9th if you get there. How the saves are distributed? Who cares. Be smart and throw your best guys always.

This is why I'd love Cabrera and Meyer in the pen. You're talking every other day one of them is coming in and taking out a run through the lineup. See the innings distribution above. If we're always pulling Pablo/Luzardo in 5+ and Hernandez 4+, Meyer and Cabrera effectively can double up after one of them and get you to the 8th/9th inning. 

Maybe think about it this way

Sandy (200 IP)
Rogers (175 IP)
Pablo (150 IP) 
Luzardo 4+ innings - > Meyer 3+ innings (275 IP)
Hernandez  4+ innings - > Cabrera 3+ innings (250 IP)
 

This is then 400 innings for the 6 man bullpen, which is a lot, but the idea is Floro/Bender/Bleier/Pop eat 200+ of these, and you rotate the hell out of those last two spots to keep guys fresh. It's basically mop up at this point. You can also be strategic on schedule/off days/extra roster spot for double headers and have that "Poteet" arm ready for those days to start eating away at these innings you need.

It'll work. However, they don't seem interested.

I like your idea and agree that the idea of pigeonholing guys into specific innings is an incredibly bad way to manage a bullpen. But the fact remains, we have an incredibly bad manager, so there will always be a guy saved for the ninth, and a guy saved for the eighth, and a guy who will be the "first out" of the bullpen on a given day, all regardless of the individual situations. Dude can't even figure out that not all lefty batters are bad against lefty pitchers yet. 

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MarlinsLou All-Star

MarlinsLou

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, SongInTheAir said:

I like your idea and agree that the idea of pigeonholing guys into specific innings is an incredibly bad way to manage a bullpen. But the fact remains, we have an incredibly bad manager, so there will always be a guy saved for the ninth, and a guy saved for the eighth, and a guy who will be the "first out" of the bullpen on a given day, all regardless of the individual situations. Dude can't even figure out that not all lefty batters are bad against lefty pitchers yet. 

That is the human factor that is the issue - Mattingly will have to be REALLY diligent to follow the plans in a Maddon/Tampa level discipline if they are simultaneously developing and building up arms in a bulk reliever fashion. He is the biggest obstacle.

But it's also - Don you're pitching Meyer and Cabrera approximately every 4th game 3 innings, and if they are cruising with reasonable pitch counts you can give them the 4th. It's literally that easy. The Twins did this for 2 years with Johan Santana. It's not rocket science.

Or just trade these dudes for a CF and RP.

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Das Texan World Champion

Das Texan

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Posted

End of day you should take your best pitchers to the show when the season starts if you are serious about winning.

If you want to keep a prospect down because you want them to get more seasoning and stay on a starters schedule that is fine in theory.  Organizational philosophy on that.

Other organizations have said, fuck it, I dont mind a young starter serving in that bridge type role and getting 100 - 125 ip in his first season in the bigs out of the pen.

I hate the way we are using pitchers in this game anyway these days as it is, but thats a different story.

Bullpens are one of the most fickle things that exist.

I never trust a relief pitcher until they have proven to be reliable for 2 out of 3 years.  At a minimum.  Until then its literally a crap shoot.  FAr too many relievers have been good/great one year and been total disasters the next year.

That said, bullpens are one of the easiest things to fix.

Unfortunately for the Marlins they took the trash heap approach in the offseason to hope they can find a reliable arm or two.  Which is fine, but you'd like to supplement it with a guy you could trust in late innings or high pressure situations to get outs.  As it is, for me persoanlly, I would trust Bleier and Floro to get those outs.  Others may prove to be great, but you'd like to have at least one more that you know will get the job done.  The Marlins have one right now really that fit that.  

Look at my Cardinals last year.  We took a utter flaming pile of walking bullshit pen, signed TJ McFarland and Luis Garcia off the trash heap and then came in threw strikes and things stabllized.

Between the back end of the pen and the CF situtation, the Marlins did a massively bad job in the offseason in preparing for 2022 if they are serious about winning as they claim to be. 

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J'Daniel MVP

J'Daniel

Posted
Posted
Just now, SonOfJack said:

This could work 

i'm sure Tampa has considered it tbh...

 

Also, Sherman and other owners should be at LEAST spending to what they make off rev. sharing, tv deals, etc. and not just pocketing money year over year which is why I dont care if they spend 16m on a reliever on a 1 year deal.  Hell, grab an elite one for 20m on a 1 year deal some time if it's a glaring need for your club and you're as low down on the payroll list of clubs as it is. 

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SongInTheAir MVP

SongInTheAir

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Posted

"Dong, the team is all relievers, so you need to make sure to use them all as relievers, but you'll have 13 guys that can pitch, okay?"

 

GAME 1

 

"Anthony Bass is now entering his fourth inning of work here in the fourth inning. The Marlins are down 137-4, and it looks like no one is up in the bullpen just yet."

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Major-Minor Jumbo Shrimp

Major-Minor

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, taiwanmarlin said:

Bullshit, you would never have enough pitching, you would never have enough hitting, so you would never making trades to improve the team !? really stupid. 

They are working on trading for starting pitching...so I guess the second lesson is you trade controllable starting pitching?

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LordMagnus All-Star

LordMagnus

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, SongInTheAir said:

"Dong, the team is all relievers, so you need to make sure to use them all as relievers, but you'll have 13 guys that can pitch, okay?"

 

GAME 1

 

"Anthony Bass is now entering his fourth inning of work here in the fourth inning. The Marlins are down 137-4, and it looks like no one is up in the bullpen just yet."

Ah yes, Marlins manager Dong Mattingly

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