3 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

In this clip, Mish presents it as Bruce wanting Kim to continue being the GM (aka building the roster through trades and free agency) but wanted to bring in someone else to oversee scouting, drafting, and player development and that Kim didn't want to share those duties with someone else, someone not brought in by her. 

Presented this way, again Kim has every reason to leave... but the Marlins have been bad at scouting, drafting, and player development since new ownership took over so I don't think Sherman was out of line in wanting to have someone new to help improve those areas. Seems like the thought was fair but Bruce fumbled the execution and presentation of this plan.

Whether or not Kim should have agreed to share and/or hand over those duties is the debate from there. 

That makes sense, but knowing the Marlins history it is better to find mediocre talent in scouting and drafting, if they ever find and develop a all star or hall of famer especially they will be gone in a year or 2. but if they can continue to find and develop mediocre talent like mike dunn, badenhop, cooper, miguel rojas, hechavaria, jose urena, berti, and deitrich, and lomo those guys stay a lot longer upwards of 5 years even. just good enough to be mlb players but not too good to be wanted by other teams. so sometimes it might be best to have a mediocre scouting department so u can afford the players u scouted.

say bruce wanted to improve the scouting and drafting and even they find great players. u think he would want to pay them the current $400 million market if they turn out all stars and hall of famers?

I understand the sentiment about the whole '1st time the Marlins made the playoffs in a full season in 20 years' but that claim is misleading as the new playoff rules with 3 wild cards did not exist until recently. if u want to make the distinction of 'full year' vs the 2020 year, then u should also make the distinction between new playoff rules and the old rules where only 4 teams in each league made the playoffs. before it was only 1 wild card for many many years, and if those rules applied now, this years marlins team wouldnt have made the playoffs either. there were several times in those 20 years that would have made the playoffs if todays rules applied. so that claim is misleading. i am a fan of kim ng but i think when people make that claim it is misleading since the 3 wild card expanded playoff didnt exist all those years.

4 hours ago, UpperDeckFishTank said:

I understand the sentiment about the whole '1st time the Marlins made the playoffs in a full season in 20 years' but that claim is misleading as the new playoff rules with 3 wild cards did not exist until recently. if u want to make the distinction of 'full year' vs the 2020 year, then u should also make the distinction between new playoff rules and the old rules where only 4 teams in each league made the playoffs. before it was only 1 wild card for many many years, and if those rules applied now, this years marlins team wouldnt have made the playoffs either. there were several times in those 20 years that would have made the playoffs if todays rules applied. so that claim is misleading. i am a fan of kim ng but i think when people make that claim it is misleading since the 3 wild card expanded playoff didnt exist all those years.

I'm not going to go back and fact check which years they would have gotten in but if true this is a very fair point too. 

 

 

4 hours ago, UpperDeckFishTank said:

I understand the sentiment about the whole '1st time the Marlins made the playoffs in a full season in 20 years' but that claim is misleading as the new playoff rules with 3 wild cards did not exist until recently. if u want to make the distinction of 'full year' vs the 2020 year, then u should also make the distinction between new playoff rules and the old rules where only 4 teams in each league made the playoffs. before it was only 1 wild card for many many years, and if those rules applied now, this years marlins team wouldnt have made the playoffs either. there were several times in those 20 years that would have made the playoffs if todays rules applied. so that claim is misleading. i am a fan of kim ng but i think when people make that claim it is misleading since the 3 wild card expanded playoff didnt exist all those years.

ok....but they made it under the rules at the time which is also why 2020 counts in my book, even if you want to asterisk it as a short year.   By that same logic, if you removed the wild card which didn't exist before 1995, the Marlins would have NEVER made the postseason.

You can't just say "if the rules didn't apply, they wouldn't have made it!!!!"

9 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

In this clip, Mish presents it as Bruce wanting Kim to continue being the GM (aka building the roster through trades and free agency) but wanted to bring in someone else to oversee scouting, drafting, and player development and that Kim didn't want to share those duties with someone else, someone not brought in by her. 

Presented this way, again Kim has every reason to leave... but the Marlins have been bad at scouting, drafting, and player development since new ownership took over so I don't think Sherman was out of line in wanting to have someone new to help improve those areas. Seems like the thought was fair but Bruce fumbled the execution and presentation of this plan.

Whether or not Kim should have agreed to share and/or hand over those duties is the debate from there. 

So it sounds like Kim isn't involved in international scouting/drafting?  That doesn't make any sense.  I guess before when there was the Jeter+Denbo combo, it makes sense that she wouldn't have had power there, but this year?

 

Shouldn't the GM be in charge of everything? - they'll have a scouting/international director, but do those people not report to the GM, and follow the GM's direction/philosophy?

 

I understand her wanting to make changes if that's not how it is, and understand her wanting to leave if she wasn't being given that ability.

I also understand Bruce wanting to change things up since scouting/international hasn't been good in years (even if they've thrown more money at it), but why not give Kim the opportunity to run that?

6 hours ago, UpperDeckFishTank said:

I understand the sentiment about the whole '1st time the Marlins made the playoffs in a full season in 20 years' but that claim is misleading as the new playoff rules with 3 wild cards did not exist until recently. if u want to make the distinction of 'full year' vs the 2020 year, then u should also make the distinction between new playoff rules and the old rules where only 4 teams in each league made the playoffs. before it was only 1 wild card for many many years, and if those rules applied now, this years marlins team wouldnt have made the playoffs either. there were several times in those 20 years that would have made the playoffs if todays rules applied. so that claim is misleading. i am a fan of kim ng but i think when people make that claim it is misleading since the 3 wild card expanded playoff didnt exist all those years.

Sure. It was two wild cards at least for 10 years though, and we got that 5th spot, so at least within the scope of playoff teams from 2012 on, we would have made it anyways.

If you really want to, though, why not go back to 1968 when just the best record from each league was immediately in the World Series? To hell with divisions!

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

ok....but they made it under the rules at the time which is also why 2020 counts in my book, even if you want to asterisk it as a short year.   By that same logic, if you removed the wild card which didn't exist before 1995, the Marlins would have NEVER made the postseason.

You can't just say "if the rules didn't apply, they wouldn't have made it!!!!"

so if the playoff field expanded to include  half the league, similar to NHL, and our new GM comes in, and they make the playoffs everyone who is up in arms currently and thinks Kim was fantastic will just suddenly be "oh ok, this person is just as good! we're great!" 

It's a fair take to say they would have made the playoffs in other seasons when using that as a measuring tool because it levels the playing field essentially in terms of end results.  For the record, I'm NOT a Kim hater either, I just think some of you are acting like she was the best GM ever.  I know some of you who are glad she's gone by virtue of private discussions have suddenly gone radio silent now too lol.  She was a perfectly average GM. 

For me, the biggest pain point is going to be the, ahem, optics....not even the whole first female piece but just the fact that once again, some good will gets generated in the local area for the team and our shit ass owner blows it up AGAIN.  it's fucking obnoxious to NEVER be able to gain momentum.  I will wholeheartedly agree that suddenly deciding to take control away from a successful GM after a successful season is a fucking slap in the face for ANY gm and Bruce should be villified for that tone deaf bone-headed idea. 

Quote

Ng had final say on all 40-man roster moves since Derek Jeter’s departure 20 months ago.

Miami Herald story today.

So we finally have confirmation, her clock started 20 months ago.

On 10/16/2023 at 9:59 AM, SilverBullet said:

This is not true. Shortcomings or not, she got them to the playoffs in the final year of her deal so she succeeded in year 3 of a 3 year plan... this means she earned herself the chance to return with more than a one year deal behind her. She was successful despite whatever shortcomings she had. She did what her job asked her to do. To say she only earned a one year deal from that is ridiculous. 

Well, it's an opinion so it's not really true or false.  I do happen to agree with him.  I would have let her prove it wasn't a fluke on that option year.  

Reality is, she made a few good trades.  A couple of really great ones, really.  However, roster management and FA signings have been a real issue. I don't view her as a superstar GM or anything near untouchable. 

At the end of the day, there's probably a lot more behind the scenes that we aren't aware of.  She just wanted to leave and she has that right.  Hopefully we hire a competent GM (not a shot a Kim) and not a rookie GM.

18 minutes ago, Rydawg said:

Hopefully we hire a competent GM (not a shot a Kim) and not a rookie GM.

Sounds expensive 

57 minutes ago, hovertical said:

so if the playoff field expanded to include  half the league, similar to NHL, and our new GM comes in, and they make the playoffs everyone who is up in arms currently and thinks Kim was fantastic will just suddenly be "oh ok, this person is just as good! we're great!" 

It's a fair take to say they would have made the playoffs in other seasons when using that as a measuring tool because it levels the playing field essentially in terms of end results.  For the record, I'm NOT a Kim hater either, I just think some of you are acting like she was the best GM ever.  I know some of you who are glad she's gone by virtue of private discussions have suddenly gone radio silent now too lol.  She was a perfectly average GM. 

For me, the biggest pain point is going to be the, ahem, optics....not even the whole first female piece but just the fact that once again, some good will gets generated in the local area for the team and our shit ass owner blows it up AGAIN.  it's fucking obnoxious to NEVER be able to gain momentum.  I will wholeheartedly agree that suddenly deciding to take control away from a successful GM after a successful season is a fucking slap in the face for ANY gm and Bruce should be villified for that tone deaf bone-headed idea. 

I know you aren't necessarily directing all of that at me, even though you quoted my post.......I'd agree she was by no means the best GM - the roster....hesitations I'll call it.....still happening in year 3 were inexcusable.....UNFORGIVABLE even lol.  As has been mentioned, the FA signings - both those that probably came from Jeter (Garcia), and Kim (Segura, etc) - during her tenure were NOT good at all.

I don't have a problem that she's gone, but I'd also have been fine with her staying, and think she did enough to earn an additional 2 years beyond the option year (3 year extension).  To your point, they just kicked a GM to the curb that broke a 20-year full season postseason drought - not exactly the best look man or woman.  It's also insulting that they'd want to put someone above her after finally seeing some success.

Was this year a fluke based on some metrics?  maybe, but I think she earned the ability to further shape and construct the roster based on this season.  The issue now will be a new GM will likely want to change course and build things differently to their views, which could push our success timeline back further.

@hovertical @Rydawg

What do you guys think of a Bruce wanting to bring in someone to lead the non roster aspects like scouting, drafting, and player development? 

Would you have liked the idea of Kim getting a partner to split baseball operations tasks with?

Or would you rather Bruce give all those tasks to the new guy (or even to Kim for the sake of discussion) instead of splitting the roles?

2 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

@hovertical @Rydawg

What do you guys think of a Bruce wanting to bring in someone to lead the non roster aspects like scouting, drafting, and player development? 

Would you have liked the idea of Kim getting a partner to split baseball operations tasks with?

Or would you rather Bruce give all those tasks to the new guy (or even to Kim for the sake of discussion) instead of splitting the roles?

Seems like they’d inevitably butt heads unless they had the exact same view of player evaluation ….which is the same view that’s gotten us terrible bay prospects 

I.e Kim likes players that fit mold X and acquires players for that, but we’re drafting players that fit mold Y.

although maybe that approach would get you a wider more balanced variety of player…

just seems like it’d lead to more uncertainty for moves, and we’d see more of the indecision from Kim’s first 2 years.

On 10/16/2023 at 2:25 PM, LordMagnus said:

Nobody with an ounce of talent is going to want to come to this clown car franchise

I'm still available

4 hours ago, hovertical said:

I'm not going to go back and fact check which years they would have gotten in but if true this is a very fair point too. 

 

If using today's playoffs rules of 3 wild cards, the following Marlins years would have made the playoffs in those 20 years they didnt make the playoffs

2005 - as 3rd wild card (83-79)

2009 - as 3rd wild card (87-75)

less than i wouldve thought tbh but 2 other times, once with Larry Beinfest as GM (2005) and once with Michael Hill as GM (2009)

4 hours ago, UpperDeckFishTank said:

If using today's playoffs rules of 3 wild cards, the following Marlins years would have made the playoffs in those 20 years they didnt make the playoffs

2005 - as 3rd wild card (83-79)

2009 - as 3rd wild card (87-75)

less than i wouldve thought tbh but 2 other times, once with Larry Beinfest as GM (2005) and once with Michael Hill as GM (2009)

2016 and I believe 2017 may also have made it.

12 minutes ago, Michael said:

2016 and I believe 2017 may also have made it.

I thought some of those Stanton/Yelich/Jose years also would have made a playoff appearance with today's rules but still no.

2016 had a collapse in August of that year, they finished 4rth in wildcard behind

1) Mets (87-75) 2. Giants (87-75) 3. Cards (86-76) 4. Marlins (79-82)

2017 was the Giancarlo and rest of the offense explosion but there pitching was horrible, they were 5th in wild card that year at 77-85

5 minutes ago, UpperDeckFishTank said:

I thought some of those Stanton/Yelich/Jose years also would have made a playoff appearance with today's rules but still no.

2016 had a collapse in August of that year, they finished 4rth in wildcard behind

1) Mets (87-75) 2. Giants (87-75) 3. Cards (86-76) 4. Marlins (79-82)

2017 was the Giancarlo and rest of the offense explosion but there pitching was horrible, they were 5th in wild card that year at 77-85

Ah, noted.

 

So even in the current playoff format that supposed "SUPER TEAM" wouldn't have made it. Ha! I love it. Suck on that, outside haters.

27 minutes ago, Michael said:

2016 and I believe 2017 may also have made it.

I know it’s hindsight and doesn’t make a difference. But I would say that had the current rules existed back then.. it could have been extra motivation for those 2016 and 2017 teams to make the playoffs. I could totally see that stacked 2017 team celebrating a WS Victory on the field with Stanton, Yelich, Ozuna, JT and the like jumping up and down. What a shame it all fell apart. Would have liked to see that core together for another 3-4 season. First time in my Marlins fan life that I can honestly say I wish Loria and Samson would have stayed. And trust me.. I was not a fan at all of them. Especially when they fired Joe Girardi in 2006. I was pissed. 😔

8 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

@hovertical @Rydawg

What do you guys think of a Bruce wanting to bring in someone to lead the non roster aspects like scouting, drafting, and player development? 

Would you have liked the idea of Kim getting a partner to split baseball operations tasks with?

Or would you rather Bruce give all those tasks to the new guy (or even to Kim for the sake of discussion) instead of splitting the roles?

Whoever it is has to have full control.  They need to be able to succeed or fail on their own. Also, Bruce needs to show confidence in whhoever he hires. No half measures. 

11 hours ago, Rydawg said:

Well, it's an opinion so it's not really true or false.  I do happen to agree with him.  I would have let her prove it wasn't a fluke on that option year.  

Reality is, she made a few good trades.  A couple of really great ones, really.  However, roster management and FA signings have been a real issue. I don't view her as a superstar GM or anything near untouchable. 

At the end of the day, there's probably a lot more behind the scenes that we aren't aware of.  She just wanted to leave and she has that right.  Hopefully we hire a competent GM (not a shot a Kim) and not a rookie GM.

for this post i will 69 with you  ❤️

and as you said, that's an opinion but if that was the true reason then that does make sense because the scouting/drafting has been utterly abysmal with this group - and i will never forget her comments about Avi and Soler on opening day in '22.  that was epic. 

so we're just 2 front office execs away guys!

1 minute ago, hovertical said:

so we're just 2 front office execs away guys!

From what? A new era for the Marlins in which they will just be 2-3 years away from being a perennial competitor?

 

😂

 

Come to think of it.. if the new GM/POBO gets rid of Avi and gets the Marlins a real catcher. Then I will be so happy with this move I won’t even miss Ng. Actually come to think of it.. I don’t even miss her now. This was a great move by the Marlins. Time to start making some smart moves. I’m tired of this Stallings/Fortes nonsense. Let’s get a real catcher and get rid of Avi.. send him to the Angels for 2 low A pitchers and the Marlins still pay all his contract and those low A pitchers never make it to MLB and the Marlins would still be an improved team with that move.

9 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

@hovertical @Rydawg

What do you guys think of a Bruce wanting to bring in someone to lead the non roster aspects like scouting, drafting, and player development? 

Would you have liked the idea of Kim getting a partner to split baseball operations tasks with?

Or would you rather Bruce give all those tasks to the new guy (or even to Kim for the sake of discussion) instead of splitting the roles?

I'm really at a loss because I ultimately want a successful team and whatever form that needs to take is what I'd be onboard with.  Personally, I kind of think it's tough to have one person who does the drafting and the other that signs/trades/moves roster pieces around because what happens when you have a disagreement over what the team needs for example - or maybe Kim trades a draftee away that the scouting guy thought was going to be outstanding and it pisses that person off. 

That said, if we pretend that was true - that this was about Bruce recognizing how utterly SHIT our picks have been for the most part then I mean at least he sees a change was needed there while being able to recognize her strengths (trades) so she could keep that piece of her job.  If that opinion piece actually has merit then Brucey kinda looks like he's semi-smart? The whole thing is so bizarre because there's really a case for both sides here. 

But y'all know I think she was just a very average GM overall and if he really goes HAM and revamps the whole scouting piece and we get a GM who is better at moving the pieces around we already do have then we may just come out better for it even if our immediate record doesn't show it (1 run game result not being as extreme as this season). 

So yeah, probably didn't answer your question but that opinion piece really has me thinking deeper into this now. 

4 minutes ago, hovertical said:

That said, if we pretend that was true - that this was about Bruce recognizing how utterly SHIT our picks have been for the most part then I mean at least he sees a change was needed there while being able to recognize her strengths (trades) so she could keep that piece of her job.  If that opinion piece actually has merit then Brucey kinda looks like he's semi-smart? The whole thing is so bizarre because there's really a case for both sides here. 

Yes this is the whole point that has me scratching my head this week. The way it was done was poor but it sounds like Bruce had the right idea and I don't hate it.