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Fish Tank Frenzy
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C- Olivo - Below average

1st- Jacobs - Below Average

2nd- Uggla - Below Average

SS- Ramirez - Well Below Average

3rd- Cabrera - Well Below Average

LF- Willingham - Above Average (Possibly the best defender on the team)

CF- Amezaga/Abercrombie - Average

RF- Hermida - Average

 

Our defense up the middle from catcher to short to second to CF is poor. The defense on the corners is poor. The defense on the corners of the OF is OK but can be better.

 

In my opinion I feel that with the defense as it is and the group of guys we have up the middle there is no way we can win. Look at the 1997 and 2003 WS teams the defense up the middle was steller. From CJ, Renteria, Counsell and Devo to Pudge, AGon, Luis and JP (has no arm but tracked down everything in the cavernous CF of DS).

 

My question to you is; Is it possible with this group of guys to ever win anything significant with the defense being as poor as it is? Can the defense improve? Has the loss of Perry Hill been that detrimental to the overall quality if defense?

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I don't think the defense will improve until the Marlins simply acquire better players for the field. We may have one of the best hitting infields but they are very poor in the field and it hurts the pitching staff. Also, when you play a shortstop in CF and a catcher in LF you just know the outfield D is going to be poor. I don't think Perry Hill could make these guys any better than they are right now. I know that most will look as Miguel Cabrera's errors and say that he misses Hill.....but that's not the reasons for the errors, it's his weight.

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Yea, I've been saying for awhile now that the defense is poor and will preclude any run for the playoffs, no matter what happens with the pitching. So, I agree with you. Except your calling Willy a good defender, possibly the best on the team, is scary. Maybe a touch of temporary insanity there. If Willy does turn out to be the best defender on the team for the whole season, then there is no question in my mind that we will finish in last place.

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Hammer isn't an above average defender...he's improved a lot, I'll give him credit for that, he's leaps and bounds ahead of where he was last year. But he's not above average.

 

Ramirez has shown good range and the potential to be avery very good defender. The problem is he has a lot of brain lapses and f***s up a lot of plays. If he focuses more, we have a GG-calibur shortstop right there.

 

And Cabrera has shown last year that he can be a good fielder, and he has done pretty fine since that one stretch when he was flat out horrible. Still muck ups, but nothing like that one stretch when if he actually managed to field a ball, he threw it into the stands. If/when he skims down, he'll do well

 

I'd also call Uggla an average defender.

 

And really, what would you want to replace those guys with? I've been frustrated with our deffense, but fact remains we don't have many options. The only real change we could (should) make is have Treanor start against RHP. We've done better since that one stretch of having like 3+ errors every game.

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I disagree with your assessment.

 

Uggla is probably the best defensive player on our team and the only players I'd put as below average are Jacobs, Amezaga (because of range issues) and Olivo.

 

Hanley and Miggy would be 10000000 times better with simply an average first baseman. After the Tuesday game where Boone was unable to pick at all, you saw Hanley start airmailing throws. The quality of firstbaseman has a TREMENDOUS impact on the overall infield defense. Simply putting a Doug Mientkiewicz on the infield, to say nothing of Derrek Lee, precludes any talk of subpar infield defense, and I truly believe that.

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C- Olivo - Below average

1st- Jacobs - Below Average

2nd- Uggla - Below Average

SS- Ramirez - Well Below Average

3rd- Cabrera - Well Below Average

LF- Willingham - Above Average (Possibly the best defender on the team)

CF- Amezaga/Abercrombie - Average

RF- Hermida - Average

 

Our defense up the middle from catcher to short to second to CF is poor. The defense on the corners is poor. The defense on the corners of the OF is OK but can be better.

 

In my opinion I feel that with the defense as it is and the group of guys we have up the middle there is no way we can win. Look at the 1997 and 2003 WS teams the defense up the middle was steller. From CJ, Renteria, Counsell and Devo to Pudge, AGon, Luis and JP (has no arm but tracked down everything in the cavernous CF of DS).

 

My question to you is; Is it possible with this group of guys to ever win anything significant with the defense being as poor as it is? Can the defense improve? Has the loss of Perry Hill been that detrimental to the overall quality if defense?

Willingham and the CFs are below average and Hermida is well below average. I agree on the others. I don't think the defense can improve much unless we get new players. I think as bad as we are defensively we could still win if the starting pitching improves and becomes a strength as it was last year.

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Uggla has improved alot since his days in the minors. He gets to alot of balls and makes a good DP combination with Hanley.

 

Boone and Jacobs just don't really have range out there, Boone has never really played there til this season so he's still adapting. Jacobs really just dont have much glovework over there, yet where else are u gona put him at?

 

Cabrera will continue to get better, he's got a great arm and everything. I just see problems on little tappers where hes throwing on the run and from across his body and he isnt squaring up properly. That will go away through more games at 3rd base IMO.

 

Willingham has deffinately improved also, but his routes on ball can still be a little ehh... but its not like what it was last year. He has been playing the balls of the teal monster very well and its shown when he has kept guys at 1st base instead of a double.

 

Olivo has a gun, but that doesn't do too much if ur letting passed balls get by u and letting runners advance. That's one thing I pick Treanor over him for.

 

Hermida just needs to play solid, he's average if u ask me. I just don't want to see the errors of last year when balls were getting by him and rolling to the wall causing extra base errors.

 

Reggie has his moments, great arm but he lacks fundamentals alot of the time. Alfredo makes some great plays but his average to below average arm cant sometimes hurt us.

 

 

This is just what I think.

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If you look at FRAR ratings:

 

Olivo - very bad

Boone/Jacobs - bad

Uggla - moderately below average

Hanley - very bad

Cabrera - bad

Hammer - very bad

Reggie/Amezaga - bad

Hermida - bad

 

We'll be a solid defensive team in 1-2 years if we get a real CF, a real C, expected improvements of the three young'ens (Hanley, Cabrera, Hermida), Uggla stays constant, and we pick one of Hammer and Jacobs to play 1B, finding a young LF somewhere in the process. It's really bad right now though.

 

Also, the Marlins are on pace for exactly 100 unearned runs in 2007. Can't be a good number, although I don't know the MLB average of recent seasons for UER on a season to know if that's normal.

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I disagree with your assessment.

 

Uggla is probably the best defensive player on our team and the only players I'd put as below average are Jacobs, Amezaga (because of range issues) and Olivo.

 

Hanley and Miggy would be 10000000 times better with simply an average first baseman. After the Tuesday game where Boone was unable to pick at all, you saw Hanley start airmailing throws. The quality of firstbaseman has a TREMENDOUS impact on the overall infield defense. Simply putting a Doug Mientkiewicz on the infield, to say nothing of Derrek Lee, precludes any talk of subpar infield defense, and I truly believe that.

 

You can't possibly be serious to blame Ramirez' defensive struggles on the first baseman when he has significant problems even getting the ball in his glove nevermind throwing to first.

 

Yes, a better firstbaseman can save his fellow infielders a number of errors over a season, and Hanley may improve over time or he may still have an injury we don't know about but he simply cannot or will not go to his right and his range this season has decreased markedly (which is why I've thought for some time he may be playing with a strain or perhaps a shoulder issue and has been told to not go diving all over the place). Hanley isn't emailing *airmailing* throws because of Boone, he's emailing *airmailing* throws because HE's airmailing throws.

 

 

We can debate Jacobs (who looked to be much improved in the few weeks we saw him this season but who knows??) and Amezaga who I personally don't think has a significant range issue but rather still is adjusting to the outfield and isn't getting proper jumps. I wish I understood the Marlins thinking last winter when they let Amezaga play almost exclusively in the infield as opposed to polishing his outfield skills (he didn't play in the outfield I believe until the playoffs or nearly so).

 

As for Hanley and his defensive problems, it isn't always the other guy's fault. This idea that when Ramirez makes an error we should start looking for someone else to blame ignores the reality that this season he just isn't very good.

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I thought FTFrenzy was kidding when he suggested that Hammer is possibly our best defender.

 

Otherwise, he brings up a great point and one that not many people want to acknowledge.

 

 

This is a HORRIBLE defensive team. The complete opposite of the 2003 team in terms of glovework and making good throws.

 

Its almost a must that any incoming CF'r and C are above average defenders to offset the bad news bears we have roaming around right now (Hanley and you would hope Hermida will likely improve). To suggest that Hanleys problems are because of Aaron Boone is pure, unadulterated homerism.

 

 

We got real spoiled by Lowell, Sea Bass and Castillo for a long time. Hell, Juan Encarnacion looked like Willie Mays out there compared to Hermida.

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I wish I understood the Marlins thinking last winter when they let Amezaga play almost exclusively in the infield as opposed to polishing his outfield skills (he didn't play in the outfield I believe until the playoffs or nearly so).

It's just like last year. He's forced into it.

 

Alex Sanchez, who you have to assume was the favorite to land CF, sucked hard and released. De Aza wins the job, gets hurt. At minimum the platoon partner in CF with Ross, gets hurt. Now you are 4th deep on the expected depth chart and have Abercrombie and Reed. And at least Amezaga can hack some singles here and there compared to those two nightmares. Also some thought maybe Borchard could play a little CF, but he can't hit anything, so maybe it's even 5th deep on the expected CF starter at this point.

 

It's going to be real nice when the "pitching for center fielder" trade happens. This problem has existed since March 2006 and we've made hardly an effort to fix it.

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You can't possibly be serious to blame Ramirez' defensive struggles on the first baseman when he has significant problems even getting the ball in his glove nevermind throwing to first.

 

Yes, a better firstbaseman can save his fellow infielders a number of errors over a season, and Hanley may improve over time or he may still have an injury we don't know about but he simply cannot or will not go to his right and his range this season has decreased markedly (which is why I've thought for some time he may be playing with a strain or perhaps a shoulder issue and has been told to not go diving all over the place). Hanley isn't emailing *airmailing* throws because of Boone, he's emailing *airmailing* throws because HE's airmailing throws.

 

 

We can debate Jacobs (who looked to be much improved in the few weeks we saw him this season but who knows??) and Amezaga who I personally don't think has a significant range issue but rather still is adjusting to the outfield and isn't getting proper jumps. I wish I understood the Marlins thinking last winter when they let Amezaga play almost exclusively in the infield as opposed to polishing his outfield skills (he didn't play in the outfield I believe until the playoffs or nearly so).

 

As for Hanley and his defensive problems, it isn't always the other guy's fault. This idea that when Ramirez makes an error we should start looking for someone else to blame ignores the reality that this season he just isn't very good.

 

Hanley does have the range to his right. There is a problem when he goes that way and Miggy is going to his left. Miggy dosen't even make an attempt at the ball and is basically just blocking Hanley's line of sight on it. Sure, he will misfire it. Or attempt throws that he should hold onto. But he's only in his second year. It takes more time than that to make a GGer out of him. I would still like to see him play 3B but I don't think anyone has convinced Miggy it's his idea to move to 1B yet.

Saying Hammer is our best defensive player is shouting out that you are a stats watcher and don't pay attention to the games. Until I look over and see how he reacts to a ball hit his way I hold my breath as much as I do when a dribbler is hit down the 3B line.

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You can't possibly be serious to blame Ramirez' defensive struggles on the first baseman when he has significant problems even getting the ball in his glove nevermind throwing to first.

 

Yes, a better firstbaseman can save his fellow infielders a number of errors over a season, and Hanley may improve over time or he may still have an injury we don't know about but he simply cannot or will not go to his right and his range this season has decreased markedly (which is why I've thought for some time he may be playing with a strain or perhaps a shoulder issue and has been told to not go diving all over the place). Hanley isn't emailing *airmailing* throws because of Boone, he's emailing *airmailing* throws because HE's airmailing throws.

 

 

We can debate Jacobs (who looked to be much improved in the few weeks we saw him this season but who knows??) and Amezaga who I personally don't think has a significant range issue but rather still is adjusting to the outfield and isn't getting proper jumps. I wish I understood the Marlins thinking last winter when they let Amezaga play almost exclusively in the infield as opposed to polishing his outfield skills (he didn't play in the outfield I believe until the playoffs or nearly so).

 

As for Hanley and his defensive problems, it isn't always the other guy's fault. This idea that when Ramirez makes an error we should start looking for someone else to blame ignores the reality that this season he just isn't very good.

 

Hanley does have the range to his right. There is a problem when he goes that way and Miggy is going to his left. Miggy dosen't even make an attempt at the ball and is basically just blocking Hanley's line of sight on it. Sure, he will misfire it. Or attempt throws that he should hold onto. But he's only in his second year. It takes more time than that to make a GGer out of him. I would still like to see him play 3B but I don't think anyone has convinced Miggy it's his idea to move to 1B yet.

Saying Hammer is our best defensive player is shouting out that you are a stats watcher and don't pay attention to the games. Until I look over and see how he reacts to a ball hit his way I hold my breath as much as I do when a dribbler is hit down the 3B line.

 

I'm not here to defend anyone's defense. I think both Hanley and Miguel have been poor defensively so far this season. But when you mention that Hanley is only in his 2nd year at shortstop, you've got to consider that it's only Miggy's second at 3rd.

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You can't possibly be serious to blame Ramirez' defensive struggles on the first baseman when he has significant problems even getting the ball in his glove nevermind throwing to first.

 

Yes, a better firstbaseman can save his fellow infielders a number of errors over a season, and Hanley may improve over time or he may still have an injury we don't know about but he simply cannot or will not go to his right and his range this season has decreased markedly (which is why I've thought for some time he may be playing with a strain or perhaps a shoulder issue and has been told to not go diving all over the place). Hanley isn't emailing *airmailing* throws because of Boone, he's emailing *airmailing* throws because HE's airmailing throws.

 

 

We can debate Jacobs (who looked to be much improved in the few weeks we saw him this season but who knows??) and Amezaga who I personally don't think has a significant range issue but rather still is adjusting to the outfield and isn't getting proper jumps. I wish I understood the Marlins thinking last winter when they let Amezaga play almost exclusively in the infield as opposed to polishing his outfield skills (he didn't play in the outfield I believe until the playoffs or nearly so).

 

As for Hanley and his defensive problems, it isn't always the other guy's fault. This idea that when Ramirez makes an error we should start looking for someone else to blame ignores the reality that this season he just isn't very good.

 

Hanley does have the range to his right. There is a problem when he goes that way and Miggy is going to his left. Miggy dosen't even make an attempt at the ball and is basically just blocking Hanley's line of sight on it. Sure, he will misfire it. Or attempt throws that he should hold onto. But he's only in his second year. It takes more time than that to make a GGer out of him. I would still like to see him play 3B but I don't think anyone has convinced Miggy it's his idea to move to 1B yet.

Saying Hammer is our best defensive player is shouting out that you are a stats watcher and don't pay attention to the games. Until I look over and see how he reacts to a ball hit his way I hold my breath as much as I do when a dribbler is hit down the 3B line.

 

I'm not here to defend anyone's defense. I think both Hanley and Miguel have been poor defensively so far this season. But when you mention that Hanley is only in his 2nd year at shortstop, you've got to consider that it's only Miggy's second at 3rd.

....at the Major League level.

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As i recall SeaBass flubbed several plays on his way to being a great defender, I see Hanley getting better and realistically being the most talented defender on the team. Uggla has made strides and should be an average 2b, for the offense he supplies I'll take that. As for the rest of the team its hard to make a fair assessment as a whole seeing the projected line-up hasn't played together yet. It seems as those who can't hit can field and those who can't field can hit.

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You can't possibly be serious to blame Ramirez' defensive struggles on the first baseman when he has significant problems even getting the ball in his glove nevermind throwing to first.

 

Yes, a better firstbaseman can save his fellow infielders a number of errors over a season, and Hanley may improve over time or he may still have an injury we don't know about but he simply cannot or will not go to his right and his range this season has decreased markedly (which is why I've thought for some time he may be playing with a strain or perhaps a shoulder issue and has been told to not go diving all over the place). Hanley isn't emailing *airmailing* throws because of Boone, he's emailing *airmailing* throws because HE's airmailing throws.

 

 

We can debate Jacobs (who looked to be much improved in the few weeks we saw him this season but who knows??) and Amezaga who I personally don't think has a significant range issue but rather still is adjusting to the outfield and isn't getting proper jumps. I wish I understood the Marlins thinking last winter when they let Amezaga play almost exclusively in the infield as opposed to polishing his outfield skills (he didn't play in the outfield I believe until the playoffs or nearly so).

 

As for Hanley and his defensive problems, it isn't always the other guy's fault. This idea that when Ramirez makes an error we should start looking for someone else to blame ignores the reality that this season he just isn't very good.

 

Hanley does have the range to his right. There is a problem when he goes that way and Miggy is going to his left. Miggy dosen't even make an attempt at the ball and is basically just blocking Hanley's line of sight on it. Sure, he will misfire it. Or attempt throws that he should hold onto. But he's only in his second year. It takes more time than that to make a GGer out of him. I would still like to see him play 3B but I don't think anyone has convinced Miggy it's his idea to move to 1B yet.

Saying Hammer is our best defensive player is shouting out that you are a stats watcher and don't pay attention to the games. Until I look over and see how he reacts to a ball hit his way I hold my breath as much as I do when a dribbler is hit down the 3B line.

 

I'm not here to defend anyone's defense. I think both Hanley and Miguel have been poor defensively so far this season. But when you mention that Hanley is only in his 2nd year at shortstop, you've got to consider that it's only Miggy's second at 3rd.

....at the Major League level.

 

What position did Hanley play prior to the major leagues?

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You can't possibly be serious to blame Ramirez' defensive struggles on the first baseman when he has significant problems even getting the ball in his glove nevermind throwing to first.

 

Yes, a better firstbaseman can save his fellow infielders a number of errors over a season, and Hanley may improve over time or he may still have an injury we don't know about but he simply cannot or will not go to his right and his range this season has decreased markedly (which is why I've thought for some time he may be playing with a strain or perhaps a shoulder issue and has been told to not go diving all over the place). Hanley isn't emailing *airmailing* throws because of Boone, he's emailing *airmailing* throws because HE's airmailing throws.

 

 

We can debate Jacobs (who looked to be much improved in the few weeks we saw him this season but who knows??) and Amezaga who I personally don't think has a significant range issue but rather still is adjusting to the outfield and isn't getting proper jumps. I wish I understood the Marlins thinking last winter when they let Amezaga play almost exclusively in the infield as opposed to polishing his outfield skills (he didn't play in the outfield I believe until the playoffs or nearly so).

 

As for Hanley and his defensive problems, it isn't always the other guy's fault. This idea that when Ramirez makes an error we should start looking for someone else to blame ignores the reality that this season he just isn't very good.

 

Hanley does have the range to his right. There is a problem when he goes that way and Miggy is going to his left. Miggy dosen't even make an attempt at the ball and is basically just blocking Hanley's line of sight on it. Sure, he will misfire it. Or attempt throws that he should hold onto. But he's only in his second year. It takes more time than that to make a GGer out of him. I would still like to see him play 3B but I don't think anyone has convinced Miggy it's his idea to move to 1B yet.

Saying Hammer is our best defensive player is shouting out that you are a stats watcher and don't pay attention to the games. Until I look over and see how he reacts to a ball hit his way I hold my breath as much as I do when a dribbler is hit down the 3B line.

 

I'm not here to defend anyone's defense. I think both Hanley and Miguel have been poor defensively so far this season. But when you mention that Hanley is only in his 2nd year at shortstop, you've got to consider that it's only Miggy's second at 3rd.

....at the Major League level.

 

What position did Hanley play prior to the major leagues?

Shortstop. That's what I'm saying, the years you listed are only the years they've played at the Major League Level, not counting all those they played in the minors or in school. The mechanics and plays don't change much from level-to-level, so I don't think not being seasoned enough at their spots, like you suggested, is a valid reason for their poor defense.

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