Rays and Marlins after Blalock

[MrMarlinPride]

umm i never said any of the players benefited from veteran presence talent wise. As you probably already know, baseball is a mental game. you can completely screw yourself up mentally and end up struggling on the field for that reason. Veterans help players in the mental part of the game. For example, when a player is in a major slump and believes that there is no way to get out of it, a veteran can come in and give them some advice on the situation since they have been there before. Of course, not all players need their hand held but still it helps those who need it.

 

 

This is 100 % true, I've experienced it 1st hand last year as a freshmen adjusting to high school ball and the older kids really do help you mentally giving advice as they've been there before and now as a Sophomore I'm helping the freshmen the same way I was helped last year.

[mystikol87]

Blalock leaning towards Rays, cause of the DH role

 

 

Did you just make this up, or do you have a link?

[MarlinsLou]

Helms is the "boss" of this team The enforcer. He appears to have the respect of young and old alike. The go to guy. As much as this is "Hanley's Team", the guy who makes it run is Helms. After Coghlan's recent object lesson there shouldn't be any question his importance to this team. That's why he's here.

 

 

yeah and people on here say veteran presence and team chemistry are overrated

 

Because it is. Specifically, the word chemistry.

you see lou, its not only jim leyland that thinks so. I've had this discussion with you and PWG before and the only real "support" you guys have of veteran presence and chemistry not being important in a clubhouse is jim leyland's comments and the championship winning chicago cubs of the early 1900's, which i believe was an isolated case. I on the other hand base my opinion on the fact that many sport writers and players speak about the importance of veteran presence

And the only real "support" you have is the same hearsay and conjecturing. Jim f***ing Leyland, in my opinion, is a much better source than sports writers, players, and a 16 year old playing for his high school team. Jim Leyland knows more about baseball than basically everyone. In Jim I trust. He has earned respect.

 

The Marlins wouldn't cease to exist without Wes Helms. I'm glad the team respects or likes him, but he's not the key piece to this team. These guys are going to win and be successful with or without him. Wes Helms alone is not keeping this team together, which is basically the chemistry argument. I'm not saying fill a team with Elijiah Dukes, Milton Bradley, and Kris Bensen and not expect problems, but there is a superior factor to all of this that defeats any team and ladidah bullcrap.

 

Winning.

 

Winning = Chemistry

 

In Jim I Trust

[Marlins WorldSeriesDestiny]

Helms is the "boss" of this team The enforcer. He appears to have the respect of young and old alike. The go to guy. As much as this is "Hanley's Team", the guy who makes it run is Helms. After Coghlan's recent object lesson there shouldn't be any question his importance to this team. That's why he's here.

 

 

yeah and people on here say veteran presence and team chemistry are overrated

 

Because it is. Specifically, the word chemistry.

you see lou, its not only jim leyland that thinks so. I've had this discussion with you and PWG before and the only real "support" you guys have of veteran presence and chemistry not being important in a clubhouse is jim leyland's comments and the championship winning chicago cubs of the early 1900's, which i believe was an isolated case. I on the other hand base my opinion on the fact that many sport writers and players speak about the importance of veteran presence

And the only real "support" you have is the same hearsay and conjecturing. Jim f***ing Leyland, in my opinion, is a much better source than sports writers, players, and a 16 year old playing for his high school team. Jim Leyland knows more about baseball than basically everyone. In Jim I trust. He has earned respect.

 

The Marlins wouldn't cease to exist without Wes Helms. I'm glad the team respects or likes him, but he's not the key piece to this team. These guys are going to win and be successful with or without him. Wes Helms alone is not keeping this team together, which is basically the chemistry argument. I'm not saying fill a team with Elijiah Dukes, Milton Bradley, and Kris Bensen and not expect problems, but there is a superior factor to all of this that defeats any team and ladidah bullcrap.

 

Winning.

 

Winning = Chemistry

 

In Jim I Trust

Well i would have to argue that bobby cox, joe torre, and tony la russa know the same or more than jim leyland. But thats besides the point. I never said the sole reason the marlins are successful is because of team chemistry or veteran presence. But i do believe it is more important than what ppl on this board believe it to be. You can go ahead and believe in one person but I still believe that if the general concensus among sports writers and players is that veteran presence is important, then it most be important. Again i dont think a team can not not win without veteran presence or team chemistry but i still think it helps a team become successful.

[Marlins2003]

Except that's not what Jim Leyland said if you listen to the complete audio AND the next day after he sobered up or took his meds he back-tracked almost totally.

 

Just to set the stage for the link below here's how FREEP reported it when Jim went ballistic:

 

In today’s USA Today, Grilli said of the Tigers, “It seems like they kind of broke up our team chemistry when they got rid of Sean Casey and good people like that. You wanted guys like that around.�

 

Leyland said: “I really take offense to Jason Grilli’s thing about we lost Sean Casey. You’ve got to be (kidding) me. We lost Sean Casey. I mean, please. Come on.

 

“Jason Grilli ought to just worry about Colorado.

 

“Jason Grilli isn’t here any longer because Jason Grilli didn’t pitch good under pressure situations and didn’t pitch very well in Detroit.

 

“Now you want to tell it like it is, and players want to start talking, then I’ll start talking.�

 

Nice leadership there Jim. Nothing like threatening to throw your own players under the bus.

 

Leyland lost his mind for a few minutes in a tirade that stands as one of the most embarrassing moments in baseball managing rivaling the truly bi-polar rants of Lou Pinella. Every other word is an F-bomb as he unloads on Jason Grilli, a player who isn't even with the club anymore, and the team generally threatening to not back them up, threatening to start calling out players in the press, if people want to use this as a source for their POVs they're only embarrassing themselves as Leyland did himself.

 

This is what happens when a sound bite is taken out of context and it becomes baseball's version of an urban legend. Every time one of you reads something about this so-called baseball insight remember when you believed in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. The entire 20 minute press conference is no longer on the radio station website but these four+ minutes shows what JL really said and the context in which he said it.

 

http://guyism.com/2008/05/jim-leyland-unleashes-f-bomb-tirade.html

 

And once again Lou you're right for the wrong reason. What Leyland is really angry about (besides Grilli) is how players aren't keeping what goes on in the clubhouse in the clubhouse and how badly they are playing "as a team".

 

If Wes Helms weren't here, you're right the Marlins would go on, WITH ANOTHER WES HELMS they hired the next day.

 

Whether it's sports or business or just life, there is a role for the alpha male.

 

In the Marlins clubhouse it's "Uncle Wes". In 1997 under the same Jim Leyland it was Darren Daulton.

 

Every team or organization has one. Every neighborhood. It's a universal truth.

[Fish Dynasty]

Helms is the "boss" of this team The enforcer. He appears to have the respect of young and old alike. The go to guy. As much as this is "Hanley's Team", the guy who makes it run is Helms. After Coghlan's recent object lesson there shouldn't be any question his importance to this team. That's why he's here.

 

 

yeah and people on here say veteran presence and team chemistry are overrated

 

 

Right, I'm sure glad Hanley is taking advice from the almighty Wes Helms. I don't know what we would do without him.

 

umm i never said any of the players benefited from veteran presence talent wise. As you probably already know, baseball is a mental game. you can completely screw yourself up mentally and end up struggling on the field for that reason. Veterans help players in the mental part of the game. For example, when a player is in a major slump and believes that there is no way to get out of it, a veteran can come in and give them some advice on the situation since they have been there before. Of course, not all players need their hand held but still it helps those who need it.

 

 

I guess all of those players who juiced up on steroids then must feel pretty stupid since I'm sure it only helped them physically. Serious question, have you played baseball on a high-school level or higher? I know that the reason I wasn't a very successful player for my high school team was because I couldn't hit the ball out of the park if my life depended on it, and I was a butcher in the field. Not because I didn't have a senior on my team who would hold my hand when I needed support.

 

To me, your example sounds like something a mother would say to her son who is getting bullied in junior-high. These are GROWN MEN. If they still need their peers to be giving them confidence at this level, then they don't deserve to be playing baseball for a living.

[LordMagnus]

What's this BS about veteran presence now? Guys, the Marlins aren't a bunch of rookies anymore. Cantu, Uggla, Ramirez, Ross, Baker, Paulino, Johnson, Nolasco, Volstad and a host of others have several years MLB experience now. To tell these players that they need a nanny would probably piss them off.

[MarlinsLou]

you see lou, its not only jim leyland that thinks so. I've had this discussion with you and PWG before and the only real "support" you guys have of veteran presence and chemistry not being important in a clubhouse is jim leyland's comments and the championship winning chicago cubs of the early 1900's, which i believe was an isolated case. I on the other hand base my opinion on the fact that many sport writers and players speak about the importance of veteran presence

 

And the only real "support" you have is the same hearsay and conjecturing. Jim f***ing Leyland, in my opinion, is a much better source than sports writers, players, and a 16 year old playing for his high school team. Jim Leyland knows more about baseball than basically everyone. In Jim I trust. He has earned respect.

 

The Marlins wouldn't cease to exist without Wes Helms. I'm glad the team respects or likes him, but he's not the key piece to this team. These guys are going to win and be successful with or without him. Wes Helms alone is not keeping this team together, which is basically the chemistry argument. I'm not saying fill a team with Elijiah Dukes, Milton Bradley, and Kris Bensen and not expect problems, but there is a superior factor to all of this that defeats any team and ladidah bullcrap.

 

Winning.

 

Winning = Chemistry

 

In Jim I Trust

Well i would have to argue that bobby cox, joe torre, and tony la russa know the same or more than jim leyland. But thats besides the point. I never said the sole reason the marlins are successful is because of team chemistry or veteran presence. But i do believe it is more important than what ppl on this board believe it to be. You can go ahead and believe in one person but I still believe that if the general concensus among sports writers and players is that veteran presence is important, then it most be important. Again i dont think a team can not not win without veteran presence or team chemistry but i still think it helps a team become successful.

Great Examples

 

Bobby Cox has had 17 winning teams, 13 Division Titles, 5 Pennants, and 1 World Series the last 19 years.

Joe Torre has been under 90 wins (87, 84) twice since he took over the Yankees in 1995. He's won 4 world series and multiple more pennants and division titles.

Tony La Russa, arguably the greatest manager ever, has over 2,500 wins, world series with two franchises, and in the last decade the Cardinals have been under .500 once.

 

What happened when La Russa's run ended in Oakland? They BOO'd his ass right out of town.

 

Credit the front office for assembling rosters of awesome players, and then signing an awesome manager. Every one of those teams has had malcontents on them for a stretch of time, but it doesn't matter. Because when you win, everyone shuts up and is happy. That doesn't mean just sign malcontents and expect it to work, but you breed a culture of winning. Sorry to go cross sport, but Bill Bellicheck has NO god damn chemistry at all. He's an alien to his players. He treats them like crap. He will trade stars and cut you like a chump if you are no longer needed. He's a ruthless dictator. But why does that team function - because they win. You win and lose, by talent.

 

What's this BS about veteran presence now? Guys, the Marlins aren't a bunch of rookies anymore. Cantu, Uggla, Ramirez, Ross, Baker, Paulino, Johnson, Nolasco, Volstad and a host of others have several years MLB experience now. To tell these players that they need a nanny would probably piss them off.

 

 

Yep. It's a slap in the face to say they NEED "Uncle Wes" and his .682 OPS around. Helms is a "good guy." Cool. It doesn't mean Gonzalez, St. Clair, you know the coaching staff, aren't in control of their team. Gonzalez has shown nothing of losing this team, like John Boles did by just sitting there and never showing any emotion. Scott Olsen has been punched out in the clubhouse, and "no harm done." These are men. They can handle themselves.

[Admin]

I've never been a huge supporter of the team chemistry argument but even if we buy into it, why couldn't someone like Jeff Conine easily fill this role if Wes Helms were to depart? In addition to being personable, Niner suits up and travels with the team (at least he does for most series). Sure, he doesn't actually get into the game, but I'm guessing he makes low six figures (if that) doing his current gig and force the club to fill the roster with a below average bat to fulfill some mandate for team chemistry.

[MarlinsLou]

And once again Lou you're right

 

See, if I quoted Leyland like that, that would be a misappropriation.

 

However, Leyland clearly attacks chemistry as an excuse of poor performance. It's irrelevant. It's the talent on the field that matters. If you're playing like crap, you're simply playing like crap. I agree with him 100%. And when you look around baseball and sports, that's pretty much what dictates team performance, which is the bottom line argument right? What spurs team performance? The Red Sox were still winning with Manny. Yea they eventually moved in a new direction, but they have the rings. Albert Belle was apart of some monster Indian teams (and so was Manny!). Even the Braves stood by John Rocker, easily top asshole of all time, and he threw 53 innings of 2.89 era ball and saved 24 games for the 2000 Atlanta Braves, who were 95-67. Those teams were good. The Tigers weren't not good because they were missing Casey and this ethereal notion of leadership/chemistry/care bears/I have no idea, the Tigers were not good because they had a bunch of junk players like Nate Robertson, Jeremy Bonderman, and (sad) Dontrelle Willis not doing anything.

[mystikol87]

FWIW, I can buy the chemistry argument a bit more in football and hockey, where you are dependent on your teammates and working as a unit to be most efficient. I could see it in basketball to a degree, although individuals can really dominate in that sport. Chemistry, if important at any point in any sport, should still be least important in baseball.

[dom2613]

I'd say the pitcher and catcher do need chemistry. Not saying they have to be best friends though.

[Erick]

If chemistry was so relevant, Hanley Ramirez would've been traded awhile ago, and Alfredo Amezaga would've been re-signed. It's all a bunch of crap.

 

Every team has 25 guys, and among the 25 guys there are going to be guys who do not like each other.

 

If you guys actually knew what went on behind the scenes with Wes Helms and Hanley Ramirez last year (not just what was reported), you'd laugh.

 

It has nothing to do with chemistry. It has to do with production. Production leads to wins. Wins leads to "chemistry." That simple.

[MrMarlinPride]

If chemistry was so relevant, Hanley Ramirez would've been traded awhile ago, and Alfredo Amezaga would've been re-signed. It's all a bunch of crap.

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with chemistry. It has to do with production. Production leads to wins. Wins leads to "chemistry." That simple.

 

 

This. This. This. This. and THIS!

[Fish4Life]

Blalock leaning towards Rays, cause of the DH role

 

 

Did you just make this up, or do you have a link?

 

Spoke to the Yahoo writer of the story, he said still up int he air but is leaning more towards the Rays because of the DH role. He didnt say how much truth to that there was but he assumes

[Fish4Life]

The St. Petersburg Times' Marc Topkin has confirmed that the Rays have "legit" interest in adding free agent first baseman Hank Blalock.

The 29-year-old Blalock batted just .234/.277/.459 last season but still slugged 25 home runs. He'd fit in pretty well in Tampa Bay as a DH, or even backup corner infielder, but it's not clear if he is willing to accept a minors contract. The Marlins have reportedly offered him the same thing.

[BosnianBaller_]

SATURDAY, 9:15pm: Heyman tweets that Blalock is in "serious talks" with the Rays.

[Admin]

Supposedly he already rejected the Marlins' offer but Carlos Delgado still does not appear to have a team. Looks like he'll end up retiring.

[BosnianBaller_]

Supposedly he already rejected the Marlins' offer but Carlos Delgado still does not appear to have a team. Looks like he'll end up retiring.

 

 

well that sucks. i'm really not liking our bench except for paulino.

[MarlinsLou]

Supposedly he already rejected the Marlins' offer but Carlos Delgado still does not appear to have a team. Looks like he'll end up retiring.

 

 

well that sucks. i'm really not liking our bench except for paulino.

I think BC is a really good 4th outfielder for defense, hitting lefties, and he's a fast runner. And behind him, I do think Jai wouldn't embarrass himself and there is always Petersen to help out. Bonifacio SHOULD be pretty good in an Amezaga roll.

 

But Helms and Jimenez/Lamb/Richar/Barden/Whoever, are probably going to be pretty weak. There's not much hope here.

[bobbob1313]

The 1977 Yankees are the ultimate "Chemistry is overrated" team.

 

The manager hated their best player. The captain hated the best player. The best player was a bonafide dick who didn't hustle, took games off and generally raised hell. The manager tried to choke the best player. Numerous books have been written about how much this team hated eachother. They exemplified the "the guys left in 25 different cars" saying. The best player was quoted in season saying he's essentially the only person that mattered.

 

They won the World Series!

 

I'm not saying having guys who hate each other is good, but if you can get someone better at baseball, Wes Helms is a waste of a roster spot. Let the guy be a special assistant and do his fun Uncle Wes stuff there. Leave the on field stuff to people who can produce.

[mystikol87]

This looks to me like a similar case to Jeremy Hermida. A ton of people thought he was SO HORRIBLE OMG, that the people who were looking at him rationally seemed like they were obsessed with him.

 

A ton of people think chemistry is OMG SO IMPORTANT. But some of us, myself included, think that these people highly overrate it. It's certainly not a necessary condition for winning. And it's not like this Marlins team seems to be too out-of-control and immature. Hanley is the biggest problem, but he's the best player, too, so everyone else is forced to deal with it. And outside of Hanley, you haven't really heard anything serious about the other guys IIRC. So, is it necessary to carry a weaker ballplayer just for Hanley's sake? It doesn't seem like it to me. That said, I'm not sure the Marlins would have even signed anyone better than Helms, because it seems like we are having a tough time getting the people we want to come here on MiLB deals and the like.

[Nny]

And outside of Hanley, you haven't really heard anything serious about the other guys IIRC.

 

 

You don't hear stories but you do hear guys comment on Helms, even unprovoked (During the ill fated BC and CC show, I remember they were looking at some samurai sword or something, and one of them noted how that that would get Helms off their back).

 

I don't think Helms does anything for chemistry. Actually, if anything, he problem hurts chemistry because I'd imagine most players dislike him. It's not "veteran presence" because what he does anyone could do, it's not that he's a veteran, and it's certainly not simply his "presence".

 

As 2003 put it, he's the "enforcer". He doesn't help chemistry, he doesn't make the players hold hands, sing kumbaya, and love each other. It's not veteran presence, he doesn't just sit there and illuminate an aura that makes players better simply by being there simply because he's played in the majors for several years. He holds players accountable when they make stupid mistakes, when they don't give they're all, when they don't focus in practice, yadda yadda yadda. And that is good (Which is a very large difference of a statement than "And that's what makes us good").

 

Now, there's still several arguments against whether or not Helms needs to be there. I think the main one is the coaching staff. Isn't it the coaching staffs job to hold their players accountable?

 

But having Helms costs us ~500k at most and he's essentially an average bench player. We do not "need" Helms and his role of "enforcer" could be filled. But Helms also does not hurt us. End result is we have Wes Helms on the roster and he does what he does.

[mystikol87]

Now, there's still several arguments against whether or not Helms needs to be there. I think the main one is the coaching staff. Isn't it the coaching staffs job to hold their players accountable?

 

But having Helms costs us ~500k at most and he's essentially an average bench player. We do not "need" Helms and his role of "enforcer" could be filled. But Helms also does not hurt us. End result is we have Wes Helms on the roster and he does what he does.

 

 

I mean, this is virtually 100% my opinion on the matter, as well. He's fine off the bench, anyway.

 

If we were a high-payroll team who could spend $1-2 million per bench guy, I'd be more upset. Given our payroll constraints, Helms is a reasonable bench option, and it's nice to have a guy who apparently helps keep our guys focused. That shouldn't be a bad thing, even if it doesn't matter much.

[FutureGM]

I'd much rather have Jason Lane on the bench than Jai Miller...