Really miss the time I refresh the Twitter every minute ……

6 minutes ago, taiwanmarlin said:

Really miss the time I refresh the Twitter every minute ……

You can still do that if you want

5 hours ago, SonOfJack said:

You can still do that if you want

No hot stove, no crazy Twitter refreshing. 

On 12/29/2021 at 9:15 PM, mystikol87 said:

Bro, you’re gonna make me cry. This payroll with Realmuto is still like $85-$90M or something? With Marte like $105-$110M. Now with Garcia and Sanchez in the OF, and you sign Correa —> Miggy becomes the utility guy? Oh man, that would have been so beautiful. And lose basically none of the pitching, and payroll is still like $140M or less.

even if they didn't sign Correa...this team would be in an amazing shape going forward with an absolutely stocked farm to boot.  Like I said.....they're smarter but they're also incredibly cheaper than Loria and that's saying something.

It's 2022, we still have no baseball …

15 hours ago, hovertical said:

even if they didn't sign Correa...this team would be in an amazing shape going forward with an absolutely stocked farm to boot.  Like I said.....they're smarter but they're also incredibly cheaper than Loria and that's saying something.

I don't think we can say cheaper than Loria..... yet.

It made sense to clear the books once they got the team. It was horribly constructed and destined to fail. Their 1 and only glaring mistake was trading Yelich with 5 years of control. We don't need to get into that, but I don't think we can call them cheap for tearing down and creating a positive payroll scenario. The rebuild was set back at least 1-2 years through the failures of Brinson/Harrison/Isan, to a lesser extent the VVM/Guzman/Scotts of the world, injuries such as Sixto still not having a large impact, and the pandemic. That happens, but doesn't go to being "cheap." They could have probably started spending last year, but hey, it's been a crazy 2 years. No cheap criticisms for me up to this offseason. Things have changed now though as they have achieved their goal of clearing the books and acquiring a team/deep farm of talent to draw from.

As for what we can evaluate them on:

The minor league investments have been substantial - VVM, Mesa Jr., Salas, and Cappe alone have cost them $12.5m. Loria would have never spent this. For the draft, they have consistently gone for it and paid their 2nd/3rd picks they believe in (notably, Fulton, Mack, Nunez, Fitterer, Banfield... this is around $9m). Loria would have never done this. Likewise, they haven't cheaped out with Meyer, Bleday, and Watson. We can debate whether these were good expenditures of money for the farm, as all of those names aren't creating real value yet, but they rose to the occasion and spent more than needed here. I will credit them for that financially.

It's hard to peg the MLB roster, but they haven't been cheap with Garcia (they guaranteed a 4th year and really spent for him), Sandy (largest contract ever for a P with his service, I was expecting $5-7m less on the deal and no option), and Aguilar (he is a luxury player at his $7-8 arbitration tender price with acceptable Cooper/Lewin cheaper replacements). There is not much more to evaluate here (I guess we can say they low balled Starling Marte, if that's true), but those 3 moves are not cheap moves to me. Those 3 moves say they understand and are going to go for it. They don't sign Garcia if they don't have a plan. They sign Dickerson/Duvall 1 year deal again.

I think they are going to put together a team we like by the end, but saying the team is in amazing shape as-is is too far for me. They have glaring short and longterm holes at CF. They have longterm issues at C (are Banfield, Fortes, and Mack good?), 1B (if Lewin fails), and 3B (nothing beyond Anderson) and need a minimum of 5+ WAR to add to the team this year. They only can really do that in CF/bench/bullpen players (or a larger positional reshuffle). They also need a BIG farm year, because I'm expecting one of Meyer/Watson/Eury and Burdick/Nunez/Morisette to get shot out for players, and combined with Misner, Scott, Nicolas, and Thompson being shipped out, and likely another guy or two being traded at the deadline, we're talking about half the Marlins top 16-20 prospects being shipped out, and another multiple (Sixto, Cabrera, Bleday, Meyer) graduating to MLB level. The farm will be OK after that, but they need to commit to going over-slot with their 2nd/3rd draft pick and spending big in IFA to replenish things. They did an incredible job getting guys like Mack/I. Lewis/Eury last few years this way, so they definitely need to do it again and not forget to address the minors, as they put finishing pieces on the majors.

It's basically what I have been fuming about - they have every tool in front of them to succeed right now and only themselves will hold them back. Which is why this is a do or die moment for me. I'll never trust this front office if they don't realize what they have right now and finish the job. They are absolutely CHEAP and worse than Loria if this team has any deficiencies at the MLB level opening day.

2 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

I don't think we can say cheaper than Loria..... yet.

It made sense to clear the books once they got the team. It was horribly constructed and destined to fail. Their 1 and only glaring mistake was trading Yelich with 5 years of control. We don't need to get into that, but I don't think we can call them cheap for tearing down and creating a positive payroll scenario. The rebuild was set back at least 1-2 years through the failures of Brinson/Harrison/Isan, to a lesser extent the VVM/Guzman/Scotts of the world, injuries such as Sixto still not having a large impact, and the pandemic. That happens, but doesn't go to being "cheap." They could have probably started spending last year, but hey, it's been a crazy 2 years. No cheap criticisms for me up to this offseason. Things have changed now though as they have achieved their goal of clearing the books and acquiring a team/deep farm of talent to draw from.

As for what we can evaluate them on:

The minor league investments have been substantial - VVM, Mesa Jr., Salas, and Cappe alone have cost them $12.5m. Loria would have never spent this. For the draft, they have consistently gone for it and paid their 2nd/3rd picks they believe in (notably, Fulton, Mack, Nunez, Fitterer, Banfield... this is around $9m). Loria would have never done this. Likewise, they haven't cheaped out with Meyer, Bleday, and Watson. We can debate whether these were good expenditures of money for the farm, as all of those names aren't creating real value yet, but they rose to the occasion and spent more than needed here. I will credit them for that financially.

It's hard to peg the MLB roster, but they haven't been cheap with Garcia (they guaranteed a 4th year and really spent for him), Sandy (largest contract ever for a P with his service, I was expecting $5-7m less on the deal and no option), and Aguilar (he is a luxury player at his $7-8 arbitration tender price with acceptable Cooper/Lewin cheaper replacements). There is not much more to evaluate here (I guess we can say they low balled Starling Marte, if that's true), but those 3 moves are not cheap moves to me. Those 3 moves say they understand and are going to go for it. They don't sign Garcia if they don't have a plan. They sign Dickerson/Duvall 1 year deal again.

I think they are going to put together a team we like by the end, but saying the team is in amazing shape as-is is too far for me. They have glaring short and longterm holes at CF. They have longterm issues at C (are Banfield, Fortes, and Mack good?), 1B (if Lewin fails), and 3B (nothing beyond Anderson) and need a minimum of 5+ WAR to add to the team this year. They only can really do that in CF/bench/bullpen players (or a larger positional reshuffle). They also need a BIG farm year, because I'm expecting one of Meyer/Watson/Eury and Burdick/Nunez/Morisette to get shot out for players, and combined with Misner, Scott, Nicolas, and Thompson being shipped out, and likely another guy or two being traded at the deadline, we're talking about half the Marlins top 16-20 prospects being shipped out, and another multiple (Sixto, Cabrera, Bleday, Meyer) graduating to MLB level. The farm will be OK after that, but they need to commit to going over-slot with their 2nd/3rd draft pick and spending big in IFA to replenish things. They did an incredible job getting guys like Mack/I. Lewis/Eury last few years this way, so they definitely need to do it again and not forget to address the minors, as they put finishing pieces on the majors.

It's basically what I have been fuming about - they have every tool in front of them to succeed right now and only themselves will hold them back. Which is why this is a do or die moment for me. I'll never trust this front office if they don't realize what they have right now and finish the job. They are absolutely CHEAP and worse than Loria if this team has any deficiencies at the MLB level opening day.

The Marte fiasco would not have happened with Loria's group.  I 100% believe that they would have kept him with an extension in-season if that's all he was asking for.  I also believe he would have re-signed Realmuto considering what he ended up signing for overall for the best at his position.  Marte i'm 100% certain they would have retained and that would have fixed a monstrous glaring hole in CF and in the lineup.  I do NOT like Avisail at all. I think that's some shit they did to try and patch a hole for cheap shit they pulled with Marte to show "hey we did something" (albeit at a lower cost).  They just haven't done anything that shows they're not cheaper than Loria.  The signings etc. they have made are no-brainers so they don't get any credit for that.  Baseball teams have to sign guys to play and retain their young talent so there's nothing special so far with what they've done in terms of signings.

33 minutes ago, hovertical said:

The Marte fiasco would not have happened with Loria's group.  I 100% believe that they would have kept him with an extension in-season if that's all he was asking for.  I also believe he would have re-signed Realmuto considering what he ended up signing for overall for the best at his position.  Marte i'm 100% certain they would have retained and that would have fixed a monstrous glaring hole in CF and in the lineup.  I do NOT like Avisail at all. I think that's some shit they did to try and patch a hole for cheap shit they pulled with Marte to show "hey we did something" (albeit at a lower cost).  They just haven't done anything that shows they're not cheaper than Loria.  The signings etc. they have made are no-brainers so they don't get any credit for that.  Baseball teams have to sign guys to play and retain their young talent so there's nothing special so far with what they've done in terms of signings.

I don't view these things the same on a "cheapness" level.

Resigning Realmuto as a 28 year old catcher for $100m+ when you're not going to contend for 3 years as the team around him sucks so maybe you extract value out of him when he's 31/32 would have been risky. Catchers don't usually age well. He's done it so far, but who knew/knows. The Realmuto decision wasn't a bad one. It was right to ship him out for a high end prospect and not spend on him. Loria left the team a mess and they had to course correct.

Same with Marte. I'm not sure what the "fiasco" is to you, but if they low balled him for 3/$40 or whatever that's silly of them (to note, I don't believe for a second Marte's agent would let him sign a 3/$40 contract. No way with the way he was playing). Signing him for ages 33-35/36 for $60-80m is even more risky than Realmuto in 2018 for a guy whose value is dependent on being an above average center fielder/speed. Marte had a .372 BABIP (career .344) last year. The Mets contract is going to be a disaster for them, which I love because it's great for Marte as he's been through a lot (wife, etc.) and bad for the Mets. I'd take 5 years of Luzardo and $60m+ million to devote elsewhere every time. To note, Garcia and Marte have the same WAR projection next year (2.9 WAR), so hard to say you like one and not the other. The only difference is, the Marlins still need a CF but that doesn't mean Garcia is a bad player. This doesn't scream cheap to me (the initial lowball offer sure, but he's 33-35/36 so why not?). It was the right decision to not have emotions dictate a CF signing. He's not the right guy for this team unless we project a $120m+ payroll where it wouldn't matter (we can call them cheap for not spending $120m if we want?).

For Garcia, a 4/$53 contract is not "cheap shit" to patch a hole. That's a legitimate FA starter contract. Most projections for Garcia had him making far less, so they really went out and got him. "Cheap shit" would have them signing Eddie Rosario for 1/$8 to fill the "Garcia" roll and hope for some magic.

Which brings us to, have they done anything that shows they're not cheaper than Loria? Well, I just went over that. The farm system player investments are IMMENSELY different. It's why they have built a 22/23 man roster for $65m and have a farm stacked with 15+ guys who could be positive major leaguers. It's not just the output of signing all the guys mentioned, there have been organizational infrastructure/admin improvements. It's an IMMENSE difference in minor league/draft spending from Loria in this area, and they deserve credit. Loria does not sign VVM/Salas/Cappe/Mesa Jr./Mack/Banfield/Fulton/Fitterer, and maybe even passes guys like Watson and takes a cheaper player.

So that brings us to the majors, and there was no reason to spend for 3 years, then the pandemic hit, and now we are here. I agree fully (have you seen me this thread?), that baseball teams have to sign guys and retain talent, but first, you can't fault them for making no-brain decisions(?), and second, this is why RIGHT NOW is the front office's moment and I am done with them if nothing happens. They've built up everything for this offseason, and if they lay an egg, they don't care and it's about the money. I will fully agree, they are worse than Loria if they don't see what they have and finish the job. It'll be because they are cheap or incompetent. I am optimistic neither of those will happen as everything besides Yelich has made sense for them, but you never know. We will see what we do, but we should all be horrified if they sign bench players to finish out this team.

 

8 hours ago, taiwanmarlin said:

It's 2022, we still have no baseball …

I hate to break it to you, there is never baseball this time of year.

Cedric Mullins for Pablo and Meyer. Wouldn't that be one hell of a trade. I'd do it

55 minutes ago, Entendu said:

Cedric Mullins for Pablo and Meyer. Wouldn't that be one hell of a trade. I'd do it

No.

2 hours ago, Michael said:

No.

Lol really? The farm is pretty much sold every other post on here. I take it you disagree with those too, because this is probably one of the more sensible moves they can make.

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/fluke-or-breakout-is-cedric-mullins-2021-success-sustainable/

Edited January 1, 20224 yr by Entendu

1 hour ago, Entendu said:

Lol really? The farm is pretty much sold every other post on here. I take it you disagree with those too, because this is probably one of the more sensible moves they can make.

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/fluke-or-breakout-is-cedric-mullins-2021-success-sustainable/

I disagree with giving up both Pablo and Meyer for someone who, as of now, a one hit wonder who played in the most hitter friendly park. He may sustain it, I just don't want to overpay and get burnt.

Also the Orioles wouldn't take Pablo, they're not exactly on the cusp of competition here.

And no I don't disagree with all the other moves that have been suggested, don't assume.

 

2 hours ago, taiwanmarlin said:

 

Cheap Marlins.

Communist too, why wouldn’t they bring back our American Olympian?

32 minutes ago, Erick said:

Cheap Marlins.

Communist too, why wouldn’t they bring back our American Olympian?

Didn't get gold. We don't need losers.

1 hour ago, Erick said:

Cheap Marlins.

Communist too, why wouldn’t they bring back our American Olympian?

Yeah, the culture of “gold medals”.

6 hours ago, Michael said:

I disagree with giving up both Pablo and Meyer for someone who, as of now, a one hit wonder who played in the most hitter friendly park. He may sustain it, I just don't want to overpay and get burnt.

Also the Orioles wouldn't take Pablo, they're not exactly on the cusp of competition here.

And no I don't disagree with all the other moves that have been suggested, don't assume.

He played half his games away from that park. You should disagree with most of what's been mentioned on here because all of this comes with significant risk. Given what it would take to trade for some of these guys (Marte), by comparison a whiff on Mullins wouldn't destroy your future. There's a lot of love for Marte but he isn't a sure thing, and you'd be giving up a sure thing-worthy haul for him in this market.

10 hours ago, Entendu said:

He played half his games away from that park. You should disagree with most of what's been mentioned on here because all of this comes with significant risk. Given what it would take to trade for some of these guys (Marte), by comparison a whiff on Mullins wouldn't destroy your future. There's a lot of love for Marte but he isn't a sure thing, and you'd be giving up a sure thing-worthy haul for him in this market.

The problem with Mullins is he is a below average defensive CF already, and it's not going to get better. Yes, Ketel Marte is also not great in CF, but he is likely better, you'd only have him for 3 years (not 4), he could shift to the IF in 1-2 years if needed and revisit CF again, and he's likely a better hitter when healthy.

Considering they just signed Garcia for 4 and they likely get their other corner OF from Sanchez/Bleday/Burdick/DLC/hell Anderson (odds are very good here for me), I have difficulty blowing out two major pieces (I think they'd demand two of Meyer, Cabrera, Watson, and Eury, and then want a piece like Fulton/Burdick/Nasim as a third piece FWIW) for a guy destined to move to a corner in a year or two. Also, important to mention Sanchez and Bleday both tore up their winter leagues, so I think organizationally you do nothing to inhibit those guys right now. Big breakouts may be coming fast. I am with you (and Fangraphs), it looks like his hitting improvement is mostly real and he'd be a nice upgrade and safeish 3+ WAR player, but getting him now creates an outrageous longterm corner OF dilemma in a season. That could be a good thing to trade from depth later on, but if you're going do a major trade like this, I feel you need a bonafide center fielder, or the guy can also play in the IF (Ketel) so you have a backup plan that isn't "left field." Why create future depth problems if you have 5 starting corner OF and 3 of them are terrible defensively in CF? Spread the love. Get an actual longterm CF if you're going to do the plant my flag move.

Don't get me wrong, if he's the only one you can trade for, by all means do it and deal with shipping out outfielders later if Mullins does fail in CF, but the Marlins pitching surplus is awesome right now and I think a better fit will be available. Everyone is going to want their arms. Personally, I think it's a double up situation. It's something like Ketel and Marsh/Kelenic/Duran. Get an impact CF for now, and if you buy low on one of those underachieving prospects and they work out, Ketel can easily shuffle to the IF. Those guys cost you 3-4 major guys for sure (and not a lot of payroll!), but whose going to argue if effectively, Pablo/Elisier, Meyer, Watson, and say Burdick go out, and Ketel, Marsh/Kelenic/Duran, and 2 free agent arms come in. That is a good short and longterm move and is what you said - doesn't destroy the future as you're getting years of control. This is the kind of progress we should hope for, with a minimum being a young CF like those 3 guys above and someone like Keirmaier to create a nice platoon for 2022. Keirmaier is as high a floor as you can get, and some real hope with a prospect, etc. Then spend money on pitching, or upgrading Cooper to Schwarber, etc. to bridge the gap to contending. A lot of options for them. Mullins just isn't one of the better ones unless he can be projected as an average CF for years.

On 1/1/2022 at 4:29 PM, Michael said:

No.

let me help you here:

Fuck No 

 

I just want to make a post …

11 minutes ago, taiwanmarlin said:

I just want to make a post …

you just did

Will this stove still be functional be off this long?

2 hours ago, Das Texan said:

Will this stove still be functional be off this long?

I imagine once the power comes back on, it's going to produce some major, major heat right at the beginning as it readjusts to being used, and then after that should function as normal.